Haddington Road Discussion ASTI/TUI/Non Union at Second Level

Drag00n79

It also states that is not definitive and issues of dual union representation in schools will need to be addressed.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

boatbuilder wrote: »

That's the way I read it too. Nothing mentioned about other etb services outside of secondary schools though.. like no mention whatsoever for staff in the hundred or so youthreach centres in the country that are run by etbs.

I`d say any teacher working in youthreach are now tied to HRA

spurious

It's almost as if the minions in the Department have no clue as to how schools are staffed and operated.

It gets better: http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1009/479393-tui-increments/

whiteandlight

We have to write in individually?? Can you just imagine how long this will take to process!

Miss Lockhart

I see this circular puts Designated Community Colleges as mixed union. Further research has also now led me to find a page on the ASTI website saying ASTI can recruit and represent members in Designated Community Colleges. I work in a Designated Community College with only TUI representation. ASTI have refused membership to anyone from the school saying they can't represent us. Hmmm...


At the moment this wording reads as though non-union members will be treated differently depending on what school they're in. If they come under FEMPI then where do they stand on S&S? Do the hours but still keep the pay freeze?

It's difficult to understand the government's stance on this. They want everyone in the agreement but yet they put non-union members outside it. Are they trying to encourage TUI membership now? It's almost like a government-run TUI recruitment drive! And I thought they didn't like unionisation!

spurious

Yet another example of how no-one in the Department thinks anything through - much like the silly S&S scheme in the first place. If there is ever a thorough audit done on that, I would not be at all surprised if it would have worked out considerably cheaper to just pay part-timers to take the classes.

evolving_doors

People here are talking about changes to CID's however from what I gather the agreement said itll just set up some committee to 'look into it'. That sounds like at least 6 months before their findings are found! Then a decision has to be made....

Also, has anyone any thoughts on the forthcoming budget, they'll probably say that education will be untouched on the day, but do the dirty work through these temporary agreements/circulars/fempi etc...methinks on the friday just before midterm break !

boatbuilder

Mr Quinn said he would have to reflect on how to handle representations from non-union members who might want to sign up to Haddington Road, as it could set a wider precedent.

This makes me so angry. He's sitting on his arse "reflecting" about my pay while I'm sitting here wondering if I will be able to afford to put petrol in my 14 year old car to get to work until my next pay. Total incompetence if you ask me.

Just listened to Ingrid Miley on RTE News who reckons its "the traditional practice" that it will go along the lines of "if the majority in your grade are TUI, then all are under HRA, even non-union members"
So I'm specifically thinking of Youthreach, which is all TUI.... means everyone in Youthreach is under HRA even non-union people.

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

People here are talking about changes to CID's however from what I gather the agreement said itll just set up some committee to 'look into it'. That sounds like at least 6 months before their findings are found! Then a decision has to be made....

Also, has anyone any thoughts on the forthcoming budget, they'll probably say that education will be untouched on the day, but do the dirty work through these temporary agreements/circulars/fempi etc...methinks on the friday just before midterm break !

This is from the circular. Despite all the other grey areas regarding who is covered by HRA this seems fairly clear cut.

Entitlement to a Contract of Indefinite Duration under Circular 33/2009 and Circular 34/2009 for Teachers covered by the Haddington Road Agreement

28. In line with the terms of the Haddington Road Agreement, teachers who are employed on a fixed-term basis are eligible for consideration for a contract of indefinite duration once they have had in excess of 3 years continuous service with the same employer (a reduction from the current requirement to have in excess of 4 years continuous service).

29. Employers should now assess any member of teaching staff covered by the Haddington Road Agreement who, after 1 July 2013, has had in excess of 3 years continuous service with that employer, for entitlement to a contract of indefinite duration in line with section 2 of Circular 33/2009 and section 4 of Circular 34/2009 and issue a contract of indefinite duration to any teacher who satisfies the conditions therein.

30. The terms of Circular 33/2009 and 34/2009 remain unaltered apart from the reduction in service requirement for entitlement to assessment for a contract of indefinite duration from 4 years to 3 years.

This is the slightly more waffley committee to look into things that won't change...

Establishment of an Expert Group on Fixed Term/ Part Time Employment in Teaching for Teachers covered by the Haddington Road Agreement
31. An Expert Group will be established to consider and report on the level of fixed-term and part-time employment among teachers, having regard to the importance for teachers of employment stability and security and taking account of system and school needs and Teaching Council registration requirements. Further communication in relation to this matter will issue as appropriate.

CID question

Hi I have a question, probably a stupid one.
I'm a non- union member in an ASTI dominated school.
I'm in my 4th year of 22 hour contracts and want to know if I can join TUI (as a means of qualifying for a CID).
I know some schools are Asti and have a few tui.

happywithlife

CID question wrote: »

Hi I have a question, probably a stupid one.
I'm a non- union member in an ASTI dominated school.
I'm in my 4th year of 22 hour contracts and want to know if I can join TUI (as a means of qualifying for a CID).
I know some schools are Asti and have a few tui.

Not an expert by any manner of means but I don't think you can as the asti will be the only union with negotiating rights with your school

Outsidethebox

They said ASTI dominated though?

Some TUI possibly?

CID question

Outsidethebox wrote: »

They said ASTI dominated though?

Some TUI possibly?

I'm not sure if there's any tui to be honest. There's an Asti list up but maybe 5 or 6 not on it. Either non union or tui, probably non union

My previous school had 2 or 3 older teachers in the tui ( they moved to that Asti school from a tui school and kept their membership with tui if I recall correctly

teacherhead

CID question wrote: »

I'm not sure if there's any tui to be honest. There's an Asti list up but maybe 5 or 6 not on it. Either non union or tui, probably non union

My previous school had 2 or 3 older teachers in the tui ( they moved to that Asti school from a tui school and kept their membership with tui if I recall correctly

Regardless of union membership you should be entitled to a CID next September. I would join whichever union I could and get advice to ensure thst your contract can ve converted this time next year

solerina

teacherhead wrote: »

Regardless of union membership you should be entitled to a CID next September. I would join whichever union I could and get advice to ensure thst your contract can ve converted this time next year

You will get your CID either way, no need to join any union.
Edit: Its your 4th year already so as far as I know that have to give it to you now. A CID is given based on the hours you have in you have in your 4th year of your own contract in a school.

teacherhead

solerina wrote: »

You will get your CID either way, no need to join any union.

Legally you are entitled to it but that doesn't mean you'll get it. I have dealt with enough cases in my time with the union to know that employers don't always follow the law

CID question

Thanks for the replies. My hours are far from assured for next year which is why I wanted to look at this avenue

rainbowtrout

solerina wrote: »

You will get your CID either way, no need to join any union.

A teacher is only entitled to CID after they come back their fifth year. While it's likely this teacher will get their CID it's not a given

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

CID question wrote: »

Hi I have a question, probably a stupid one.
I'm a non- union member in an ASTI dominated school.
I'm in my 4th year of 22 hour contracts and want to know if I can join TUI (as a means of qualifying for a CID).
I know some schools are Asti and have a few tui.

nobody here will be able to provide an example of someone with 4 years fixed term with own hours who did NOT get a CID..You`re sorted.

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

A teacher is only entitled to CID after they come back their fifth year. While it's likely this teacher will get their CID it's not a given

I thought the whole point of a CID was you HAD to be given one at the end of your 4th year ?

rainbowtrout

Jerry Powerful Vegetarian wrote: »

nobody here will be able to provide an example of someone with 4 years fixed term with own hours who did NOT get a CID..You`re sorted.

You can't speak for every teacher on here. I've seen it happen in the school I work in. She was let go after doing 4 years. So it does happen and another poster on here had the same happen to them. It's far from assured.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You can't speak for every teacher on here. I've seen it happen in the school I work in. She was let go after doing 4 years. So it does happen and another poster on here had the same happen to them. It's far from assured.

Did she have her own hours in a FTC for each of the 4 years she was in the school?

CID question

I don't mean to derail the thread but maybe my situation applies to others.

My understanding is also that I have to be offered hours in 5th year to get my CID.

There are two other teachers due CID next September.
In the event that we lose two teachers as there are no retirements due and possible cuts to pupil teacher ratio, 2 of us may face being cut.
Of course I can't be sure of it yet, just looking at my options.
Thank you for replies and I know no one can tell me the future, just looking into the TUI aspect for now

rainbowtrout

km79 wrote: »

I thought the whole point of a CID was you HAD to be given one at the end of your 4th year ?

No it isn't. You have to work four years to be entitled to one but to trigger that entitlement you have to start work on your fifth year. An employer can leave you go at the end of four years but once they employ you for four years and one day they have passed the limit where they are legally obliged to give you a CID.

rainbowtrout

Jerry Powerful Vegetarian wrote: »

Did she have her own hours in a FTC for each of the 4 years she was in the school?

Yes and I do know what I'm talking about. You can be left go at the end of four years.

Lockedout

Surprised there is no conversation here about circular-which was issued today and is on ASTI web site. It seems non union members in an ASTI school (secondary schools) will find themselves outside HR. TUI members in mixed schools will have to declare membership with a special form. I wonder what happens to non union people in mixed schools? Not clarified. What happens to TUI members who dont declare? Its all on the web site folks.

Can the CID question go to another thread. Its off topic-to my mind.

trihead

Lockedout wrote: »

Surprised there is no conversation here about circular-which was issued today and is on ASTI web site. It seems non union members in an ASTI school (secondary schools) will find themselves outside HR. TUI members in mixed schools will have to declare membership with a special form. I wonder what happens to non union people in mixed schools? Not clarified. What happens to TUI members who dont declare? Its all on the web site folks.

Can the CID question go to another thread. Its off topic-to my mind.

It was released yesterday and was /is being discussed in previous pages before CID discussion started.

rossean

We were due to have a parent teacher meeting in week before the Midterm. We assumed that it would go ahead during the day, as per the directive. Now it has been decided by management to postpone it until things get sorted.

Just wondering if this is happening generally in other ASTI schools?

Miss Lockhart

Jerry Powerful Vegetarian wrote: »

nobody here will be able to provide an example of someone with 4 years fixed term with own hours who did NOT get a CID..You`re sorted.

Says who? I have also seen someone not offered a fifth contract and so losing out on CID.

Lockedout

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Says who? I have also seen someone not offered a fifth contract and so losing out on CID.

Get onto ASTI/TUI.

They will take a case if a case exists-its that simple. Is this a CID thread??

Lockedout

Alqua wrote: »

It doesn't explain the situation in schools with both unions though? Awful that they can get away with leaving non-union members in the dark. There are quite a lot of us(!)

No offence but I have paid thousands in Union dues-got money for non union members by strike action etc-so what happens to non union members is between them and Department. No concern of union members here.

whiteandlight

Off topic warning: Please everyone stay on topic which is Haddington Road

Lockedout

History Queen wrote: »

Well my basis for thinking we are outside HRA is based on the fact that on 2.10 says "this section also applies to teachers employed in Designated Community Colleges and Community and Comprehensive schools who are TUI members"

2.9 says "the Haddington Road Agreement as set out in Section 2 of this Circular will apply to teachers employed in Designated Community Colleges and Community and Comprehensive Schools who are TUI members"

But then on the other hand 2.7 says
"The Haddington Road Agreement a set out in section 2 of this Circular will apply to teachers employed in Education and Training Board Schools ( apart from Designated Community Colleges).

So does the position re non-union teachers depend on the school you are in? This seems strange given I'm only on contract til Christmas so could conceivably be in ASTI school after Christmas... So my s&s and wages will be all over the place if I'm reading/understanding this correctly?

Non union members in ASTI only schools are not in HR. Non Union members in TUI only schools are in HR. Those in mixed school I would think will also be in HR but thats not certain. Its going to be a mess if you are moving but I would say whatever you are in now will be your position salary wise for year . Beyond that my mind can not grasp.

Lockedout

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Off topic warning: Please everyone stay on topic which is Haddington Road

Ok

rainbowtrout

Lockedout wrote: »

Surprised there is no conversation here about circular-which was issued today and is on ASTI web site. It seems non union members in an ASTI school (secondary schools) will find themselves outside HR. TUI members in mixed schools will have to declare membership with a special form. I wonder what happens to non union people in mixed schools? Not clarified. What happens to TUI members who dont declare? Its all on the web site folks.

Can the CID question go to another thread. Its off topic-to my mind.

There was a lengthy discussion about the circular here last night. It was published yesterday. My reading of it is, for dual union schools at least that non union members are outside HRA, while TUI members have to self declare. As it turns out we had 5 non union members at the time of the ballot. Three have joined/in process of joining TUI at the moment, one is out sick, wasn't talking to the other one, but I suspect they will join TUI.


Mods - perhaps split the CID discussion into a separate thread?

Lockedout

What if I as a TUI member (which Im not) quit the union? Thus I can make my own mind up on HR. Many here were outraged at TUI-now you can do something about it. I will quit the ASTI if HR is ever accepted. Money where your mouth is time!

whiteandlight

That would be my ideal situation. Quit the TUI and remain under FEMPI. However it does look like that isn't an option because I'm in a TUI school.

As an aside, is there a list of schools that are mixed union?

rainbowtrout

Musicmental85 wrote: »

That would be my ideal situation. Quit the TUI and remain under FEMPI. However it does look like that isn't an option because I'm in a TUI school.

As an aside, is there a list of schools that are mixed union?

Think I read somewhere online last night that there are 150 schools that are mixed.

The name would give it away for the most part, Community Colleges are under VEC/ETB control but are amalgamation of vocational and religious orders. Community Schools are same but under control of Dept of Ed. They would probably account for the majority of dual union schools.

whiteandlight

I'm in a community college though and afaik its TUI

boatbuilder

So... when do they start implementing these changes and backpaying TUI members for increments? I wonder are ETBs working on it now for the "All TUI Schools" or do they have to wait for "further clarification"?

rainbowtrout

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I'm in a community college though and afaik its TUI

I'm sure it's not as clear cut as I suggested. My school is a relatively recent amalgamation, so at the start it was about half and half ASTI/TUI, now it's about 80% TUI and I would imagine that in another 5-10 years we won't have any ASTI left. Older community schools/colleges have probably gone that route depending on whether they are VEC/Dept.

whiteandlight

I wonder though is it designated still even if majority staff are now TUI. Hard to know what'll happen

Miss Lockhart

My school is a Designated Community College under the ETB. It was a greenfield school (no ammalgamation) over thirty years ago. Apparently it's because it is religious (Catholic) that it is designated.

But the only union in the school is TUI and as I've said, ASTI will not represent us.

Also, not all "community colleges" are designated. Some are just straight-forward ETB/VEC schools.

endakenny

Surely, when the S&S payment to ASTI members is terminated, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will withdraw from S&S because withdrawal would force the closure of the schools. I believe that the ASTI (I'm neither a union member nor a teacher) is already achieving by withdrawing from the CPA/HRA hours and essentially blocking the new Junior Cycle curriculum, which consists of the assessment of secondary pupils' academic ability by their own teachers, which has been a disaster in England.

km79

Whats the situation with CP hours in most tui and mixed schools at moment? Not being done at present time? I wonder are the govt happy enough to let this go on until talks with asti resume (which they will).
My feeling now is govt may offer to get rid of cp hours for all in return for mandatory s and s for all.....

endakenny

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I can, but not to the extent it appears to annoy you. I am TUI because I don't have a choice. I voted no and encouraged/campaigned for a no vote in my school. As has been mentioned a lot on this thread it appears we were at the mercy of Third level.

However if it was vice versa I would't begrudge my colleagues the extra hour. At this stage there is no sign of progress either on those in HR or those out so I personally feel its a non-issue. If the TUI and ASTI stand together on this at least there is more impact


On a different note, if IMO are striking have they broken HR/Croke Park??

The second-level TUI members should consider breaking away to form their own union so that they can join forces with the ASTI.

Lockedout

The way I see it-two options were provided-HR or FEMPI. ASTI choose FEMPI-now feck off and leave us alone. But the union leaders who suckled on partnership milk wont give up that easy. Quinn will slightly moderate new JC. Promise more money for the children and a "new" vote will be put. I dont believe s and S will ever be paid again. Quinn will bluff that-ie Tell ASTI do you really want to shut schools?? Then my friends-the wheat shall be separated from the chaff. the weak shall bow down at Ho Chi Quinn's feet (who has been on a pension since his 30s) and the strong will tell him to buzz off but which at that stage, which group will be in the majority I dont know!

Chilli Con Kearney

I realise this is off topic...apologies...but its important re cid. You do not have to be doing your own hours/contracts every year for cid. You just have to do them in your final year.

Back on topic. It will be very interesting to see how the asti bat the failure to pay s&s. There will be no point sitting tight if no payment is made.

endakenny

Lockedout wrote: »

I dont believe s and S will ever be paid again. Quinn will bluff that-ie Tell ASTI do you really want to shut schools??

So the S&S payments to ASTI members will stop. That doesn't necessarily mean that ASTI members will withdraw from S&S.

Peter Flynt

endakenny wrote: »

So the S&S payments to ASTI members will stop. That doesn't necessarily mean that ASTI members will withdraw from S&S.

I'm coming to the conclusion that maybe S&S for ASTI members will not be stopped as the Government is making a substantial sum of money from ASTI members by freezing increments for 3 years and by not having to pay them any of their promised pay increases (which many ASTI members didn't believe in anyway).

Stopping paying ASTI members their S&S money guarantees a number of things that the Government does not want to occur:

1 - That the ASTI may definitely never sign up to HR.
2 - Could be seen as an act of vindictiveness or revenge on ASTI members for not signing up to HR.
3 - No implementation of the new Junior Cert.
4 - Possible withdrawal of co-operation with the inspection process.

In other words there is nothing to be gained by cutting S&S monies for ASTI members and everything to lose. . . . Putting the ASTI in a position of strength.