2013-4 Heineken Cup Discussion Thread

vienne86

I can't see beyond four home wins. Yes, Ulster have stuttered a bit, but they should have the beating of Saracens in Ravenhill and they certainly owe them. We are just starting to pack for an early departure for Nice tomorrow, and intend having a good time in Toulon next weekend. I really think that beating Toulon in Toulon is a big ask, but if everyone is on song and with the help of 2.5K supporters, we might just do it.

I don't see Leicester giving Clermont too much trouble in the Stade Michelin and Munster should be able to do a job on Toulouse in Thomond Park, but will have to be on their game and do a lot better than las Saturday.

C'mon the provinces!

Buer

If I had to put my neck on the line regarding results, I'll go with:

Munster by 6
Clermont by 9
Saracens by 4
Toulon by 6

awec

Ulster -3 is what the bookies are saying. Wish I shared their optimism.

WorldRugby99

cracking weekends rugby up ahead.yes theres an argument thats its becoming predictable with the same rich teams getting through but thats an argument for another time. History suggests 3 out of 4 qfinals are won by home team and so you always have to favour the home side but all 4 of these ties could well be close and i think all the away teams have a chance even leicester in clermont.
Certainly there are 4 enticing ties that any rugby supporter,fan or neutral,will want to watch.Really looking forward to it.

.ak

WorldRugby99 wrote: »

cracking weekends rugby up ahead.yes theres an argument thats its becoming predictable with the same rich teams getting through but thats an argument for another time. History suggests 3 out of 4 qfinals are won by home team and so you always have to favour the home side but all 4 of these ties could well be close and i think all the away teams have a chance even leicester in clermont.
Certainly there are 4 enticing ties that any rugby supporter,fan or neutral,will want to watch.Really looking forward to it.

Clermont, Toulon and Toulouse are really the only rich teams though, and the former two are pretty much 'new comers' to the table, so to speak.

Podge_irl

.ak wrote: »

Clermont, Toulon and Toulouse are really the only rich teams though, and the former two are pretty much 'new comers' to the table, so to speak.

I do think the Irish provinces are slightly richer than some people think when central contracts are accounted for. Nothing like the French teams obviously but they do have a stack of internationals playing for them which isn't cheap.

.ak

Podge_irl wrote: »

I do think the Irish provinces are slightly richer than some people think when central contracts are accounted for. Nothing like the French teams obviously but they do have a stack of internationals playing for them which isn't cheap.

I think the truth is somewhere in between. I think people outside of Ireland think they're rich because they have a lot of internationals playing for them, but the truth is those international players aren't on lucrative contracts. Even the central contracts aren't that hot. There's a few marquee players in Ireland but only a few of them are on anything over 300k. Sexton was on 300k for example.

the perfect ten

.ak wrote: »

I think the truth is somewhere in between. I think people outside of Ireland think they're rich because they have a lot of internationals playing for them, but the truth is those international players aren't on lucrative contracts. Even the central contracts aren't that hot. There's a few marquee players in Ireland but only a few of them are on anything over 300k. Sexton was on 300k for example.

Yes, I agree that the truth is somewhere in the middle because one is not comparing like with like. The English and French clubs are private entities whereas the Irish provinces are effectively "owned" by the IRFU. In the latter case much of the off-field costs are probably contained with the central IRFU budget and would not appear in a Leinster/Munster/Ulster/Connacht cost breakdown.

its_phil

.ak wrote: »

I think the truth is somewhere in between. I think people outside of Ireland think they're rich because they have a lot of internationals playing for them, but the truth is those international players aren't on lucrative contracts. Even the central contracts aren't that hot. There's a few marquee players in Ireland but only a few of them are on anything over 300k. Sexton was on 300k for example.

The tax laws are a massive boost when you consider the return they will get at the end of their careers compared to other professional rugby players

.ak

its_phil wrote: »

The tax laws are a massive boost when you consider the return they will get at the end of their careers compared to other professional rugby players

True, but that's neither here nor there in regards to 'rich clubs', i.e the club's equity in spend.

ssaye2

Info for Toulon
http://www.rctoulon.com/en/news/article/village-h-cup-2014/

"Following the success of first one, Toulon Rugby Club, in partnership with Toulon Provence Méditerranée Metropolitan Area, has decided to organise another H Cup village in Toulon's Place Besagne on 5th and 6th April around the 1/4 final against Leinster at the Mayol stadium.

Games for kids, introductions to rugby, showing of the H Cup and Amlin Challange Cup 1/4 finals on the big screen, refreshment stands, live music and concerts... all making it a great weekend. And of course there are more than 3,000 Irish supporters expected in Toulon for this historic match.

New for 2014: RCT is offering local artists the chance to take part in the weekend. It'll be like a festival of music with singers, dancers, bands etc all performing in Place Besagne for a given slot (about 45 minutes).

Follow RCT news and comments on social media: "

WorldRugby99

.ak wrote: »

Clermont, Toulon and Toulouse are really the only rich teams though, and the former two are pretty much 'new comers' to the table, so to speak.

im not saying to compare leinster or leicester with toulon obviously-the french are in a different league money wise but with the amount of internationals on say leinsters books-whether its tax rebates,central contracts or whatever-the wage bill however you work it out-must be a lot bigger than say connachts,edinburghs or exeters.
Healy,o brien,heaslip,o driscoll,kearney etc-if they werent earning good money- would be playing in france.
The orginal point i was making was that-with the amount of internationals in their squads-im not really sure its that huge an achivement for the big teams to make it to qfinals-its surely expected? and even predictable-many predicted who would qualify very early on this season.

molloyjh

ssaye2 wrote: »

Info for Toulon
http://www.rctoulon.com/en/news/article/village-h-cup-2014/

"Following the success of first one, Toulon Rugby Club, in partnership with Toulon Provence Méditerranée Metropolitan Area, has decided to organise another H Cup village in Toulon's Place Besagne on 5th and 6th April around the 1/4 final against Leinster at the Mayol stadium.

Games for kids, introductions to rugby, showing of the H Cup and Amlin Challange Cup 1/4 finals on the big screen, refreshment stands, live music and concerts... all making it a great weekend. And of course there are more than 3,000 Irish supporters expected in Toulon for this historic match.

New for 2014: RCT is offering local artists the chance to take part in the weekend. It'll be like a festival of music with singers, dancers, bands etc all performing in Place Besagne for a given slot (about 45 minutes).

Follow RCT news and comments on social media: "

I cannot feckin' wait for this weekend! :cool:

vienne86

ssaye2 wrote: »

Info for Toulon
http://www.rctoulon.com/en/news/article/village-h-cup-2014/

"Following the success of first one, Toulon Rugby Club, in partnership with Toulon Provence Méditerranée Metropolitan Area, has decided to organise another H Cup village in Toulon's Place Besagne on 5th and 6th April around the 1/4 final against Leinster at the Mayol stadium.

Games for kids, introductions to rugby, showing of the H Cup and Amlin Challange Cup 1/4 finals on the big screen, refreshment stands, live music and concerts... all making it a great weekend. And of course there are more than 3,000 Irish supporters expected in Toulon for this historic match.

New for 2014: RCT is offering local artists the chance to take part in the weekend. It'll be like a festival of music with singers, dancers, bands etc all performing in Place Besagne for a given slot (about 45 minutes).

Follow RCT news and comments on social media: "

Oh YES! Bring it on - can't wait to get there!

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

True, but that's neither here nor there in regards to 'rich clubs', i.e the club's equity in spend.

But it is very much relevant in how attractive they are to players, which is not the same thing, but somewhat related to spending power. It certainly makes them "bigger" if a "big club" is a club with high profile players.

It'd be great if every country could follow suit, or at least the Welsh/Scots

former legend

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/coupe-d-europe/2013-2014/toutes-les-stats-a-connaitre-avant-les-quarts-de-finale-de-h-cup_sto4197163/story.shtml

Some interesting stats from rugbyrama.fr;

Munster and Toulouse are even in their HC head-to-head with two wins each, but history very much not on Ulster's side as they're 4-1 down against Sarries. It's 4-2 for Leicester over Clermont and Leinster and Toulon have never met.

More bad omens for Ulster, not only has there never been a team go six from six in the pools and win the competition, the top-ranked side after the pools has never won the competition, which is a mental statistic!

51 of the 68 quarter finals to date (75%) have been won by the home team. Munster lead the way with four away wins in the QFs with Leinster and Toulouse having two each.

Riskymove

former legend wrote: »

More bad omens for Ulster, not only has there never been a team go six from six in the pools and win the competition, the top-ranked side after the pools has never won the competition, which is a mental statistic!

actually if you reflect on this I think you'll realise it isn't as mental as you think

getting six wins out of six and coming high in the seedings is usually a good indicator you are a good team in a group with at least one of the weaker teams, particularly the italians.

Other teams have had tougher groups with teams taking points off each other.

Eod100

Riskymove wrote: »

actually if you reflect on this I think you'll realise it isn't as mental as you think

getting six wins out of six and coming high in the seedings is usually a good indicator you are a good team in a group with at least one of the weaker teams, particularly the italians.

Other teams have had tougher groups with teams taking points off each other.

Possibly but think not sure how many teams got 6 from 6/the top seeding were in pools with an Italian team. 2 English teams qualified that qualified as best runners-up were in pools with Italians but not sure about other years..

Riskymove

Eod100 wrote: »

Possibly but think not sure how many teams got 6 from 6/the top seeding were in pools with an Italian team. 2 English teams qualified that qualified as best runners-up were in pools with Italians but not sure about other years..

yeah i had a look there at the last few years and while it hasn't happened that many times there are two usual factors

1. a weak team - either an Italian
or

2. a French team not particularly competitive or interested in the ERC

Clermont last year probably an exception

JacquesDeLad

Munster and Toulouse are the aristocrats of the H-Cup, it's sad that they face off this early in the last real European rugby competition.

molloyjh

JacquesDeLad wrote: »

Munster and Toulouse are the aristocrats of the H-Cup, it's sad that they face off this early in the last real European rugby competition.

I have to say I really have no use what this "aristocrats of Europe" thing even means at this stage. Why are Munster aristocrats and the likes of Leinster and Leicester not?

And surely it's sad that the winners of the last few HECs are facing off this early rather than 2 teams who haven't won the thing, or appeared in a final, in 6 and 4 years respectively?

There are a load of big HEC teams at this stage. Neither Munster or Toulouse have been genuine contenders for years now. Toulon, Saracens and Ulster could easily argue to have a better claim to it this year. Clermont have been there or thereabouts more consistently in recent years too.

thomond2006

There's no real aristocrat right now.

Grandpa Hassan

JacquesDeLad wrote: »

Munster and Toulouse are the aristocrats of the H-Cup, it's sad that they face off this early in the last real European rugby competition.

Munster? Really?

former legend

JacquesDeLad wrote: »

Munster and Toulouse are the aristocrats of the H-Cup, it's sad that they face off this early in the last real European rugby competition.

Bored yet?

ssaye2

https://twitter.com/ercrugby/status/451018176969834496


It's being billed as the greatest quarter-final line up

Here's why

former legend

Saracens sort of wreck that graphic, they should be booted out and Wasps brought in.

JacquesDeLad

Munster were a team with appeal, mostly by virtue of their travelling fans, before any of the tv deals crap appeared. So fck the likes of Leicester, ....or Saracens, who want to jump on the bandwagon now it's been rolling a while.

Grandpa Hassan

JacquesDeLad wrote: »

Munster were a team with appeal, mostly by virtue of their travelling fans, before any of the tv deals crap appeared. So fck the likes of Leicester, ....or Saracens, who want to jump on the bandwagon now it's been rolling a while.

Your post has exposed you for the wannabe Munster rugby fan you are, jumping on the bandwagon.

A true Munster fan would be aware of the mutual respect between Leicester and Munster rugby clubs and their fans, and would never make a comment like that. Witness the last game at the old Thomond, which I was at.

But I am feeding.....

rockbeast

JacquesDeLad wrote: »

Munster were a team with appeal, mostly by virtue of their travelling fans, before any of the tv deals crap appeared. So fck the likes of Leicester, ....or Saracens, who want to jump on the bandwagon now it's been rolling a while.

Goodbye:rolleyes:

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Leicester have been a corner stone of the competition. And their slight regression in recent years has been a kick in the stones for HC rugby. Especially considering no other English team really stepped up

minitrue

Munster (6) Vs Toulose (3)
Clermont (4) Vs Leicester (13)
Ulster (7) Vs Saracens (12)
Toulon (2) Vs Leinster (1)

ERC rankings in brackets. 3 Vs 6 would be a "perfect" draw from a seeded top 8.

If people want to rant, it's Northampton and Harlequins (9 and 10 in ERC rankings, Biarritz (5) and Stade (8) didn't qualify to play in the HC) who missed out on qualifying to Leicester and Saracens because the 2nd place spots inevitably go to the teams who get the Italians in their group. To be fair, Northampton would have the biggest grumble as they lost to the lowest ranked team in their group (i.e. where there Italians might have been) while Quins lost to Scarlets who were the 3rd ranked team in their group so an extra bonus point against the lowest ranked side wouldn't have got them over the line. If Northampton had picked up 10 points against the bottom ranked side in their pool (instead of 5) they'd have qualified in 7th and be playing Clermont while Leicester would be on their way back to Ulster.

Does show that those rankings are a good reflection on things though, 6 of the 8 quarter-finalists are from the top 8 of the rankings and perhaps only the Italian job stopped 9 and 10 (or 11 Cardiff who lost both their games to the lowest ranked side in their group) taking the places of the missing 5 and 8.

This also highlights what a fiasco the new format will be also with only 3 teams seeded. A "bad" draw could see only 2 of the best 8 sides in the tournament making it through to the quarter finals (i.e. if the best 8 sides are drawn into 2 groups).

JacquesDeLad

Click, clique, boom.

Eod100

Looking forward to this weekend. Couple of days to go yet but seems the Munster v Leinster match got more coverage than the 3 qfs with Irish teams this weekend but maybe that's just me..

Grimebox

Eod100 wrote: »

Looking forward to this weekend. Couple of days to go yet but seems the Munster v Leinster match got more coverage than the 3 qfs with Irish teams this weekend but maybe that's just me..

I'm far more excited and nervous for this weekend

Grandpa Hassan

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Your post has exposed you for the wannabe Munster rugby fan you are, jumping on the bandwagon.

A true Munster fan would be aware of the mutual respect between Leicester and Munster rugby clubs and their fans, and would never make a comment like that. Witness the last game at the old Thomond, which I was at.

But I am feeding.....

ya there will always been that mutual respect they where awsome in there day at the same time always disliked martin johnson and theres the hand of back .....never forget

Rightwing

JacquesDeLad wrote: »

Munster and Toulouse are the aristocrats of the H-Cup, it's sad that they face off this early in the last real European rugby competition.

Massive clash on paper for sure, I can't understand how we are favs by 4 points though.

Buer

Rightwing wrote: »

Massive clash on paper for sure, I can't understand how we are favs by 4 points though.

Did you not state last year that Munster were better than Toulouse in all areas? Last year...when Munster were having a worse season?

Molester Stallone

Buer wrote: »

Did you not state last year that Munster were better than Toulouse in all areas? Last year...when Munster were having a worse season?

He meant we should be faves by 6 ! points

Rightwing

Buer wrote: »

Did you not state last year that Munster were better than Toulouse in all areas? Last year...when Munster were having a worse season?

I also stated last year M Utd would beat Liverpool. Times change my friend.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Rightwing wrote: »

I also stated last year M Utd would beat Liverpool. Times change my friend.

well dodged

Rightwing

Molester Stallone wrote: »

He meant we should be faves by 6 ! points

True, wouldn't surprise if we beat them by more than 6, but I wouldnt be putting much cash on it!

ssaye2

http://www.ercrugby.com/heinekencup/news/28231.php#.Uz08Hs5ZhfI


Heineken Cup semi-finals
(Kick-offs local time)

Saturday, 26 April
Ulster Rugby v winners ASM Clermont Auvergne v Leicester Tigers
Aviva Stadium, Dublin (capacity: 51,000) 3.40
OR
Saracens v winners ASM Clermont Auvergne v Leicester Tigers
Twickenham Stadium (capacity: 82,000) 3.40

Sunday, 27 April
Toulon v winners Munster Rugby v Toulouse
Stade Vélodrome, Marseille (capacity: 41,000) 4.30
OR
Leinster Rugby v winners Munster Rugby v Toulouse
Aviva Stadium, Dublin (capacity: 51,000) 3.30

Amlin Challenge Cup semi-finals
(Kick-offs local time)

Friday, 25 April
Sale Sharks or Northampton Saints v Stade Francais Paris or Harlequins
AJ Bell Stadium or Franklin's Gardens 8.00

Sunday, 27 April
London Wasps or Gloucester Rugby v Bath Rugby or Brive
Adams Park or Kingsholm Stadium 1.00

Notes

• If Toulon defeat Leinster, Stade Velodrome will host a Heineken Cup match for the first time.

• The stadium, which is home to Olympique Marseille, staged the 2010 Amlin Challenge Cup final in which Cardiff Blues defeated Toulon 28-21.

• Opened in 1972, Stade Velodrome was a venue for the 1998 FIFA World Cup and the 2007 Rugby World Cup. It is currently being redeveloped for the UEFA Euro 2016 finals.

• If a semi-final is staged at Twickenham Stadium, it will be the third time a last-four match in the tournament has been played at English rugby HQ. The previous occasion was in 2013 when Toulon defeated Saracens 24-12.

• Two semi-finals have been played at Dublin's Aviva Stadium. In 2012, Ulster Rugby defeated Edinburgh Rugby 22-19, and in 2011, Leinster Rugby got the better of Toulouse by 32-23.

ulster_Beef

Is there no build up threads?

ssaye2

ulster_Beef wrote: »

Is there no build up threads?

When teams are announced I gather tomorrow lunch

.ak

So it could be 2 semi's in a row in Aviva.

Riskymove

.ak wrote: »

So it could be 2 semi's in a row in Aviva.

hopefully

former legend

.ak wrote: »

So it could be 2 semi's in a row in Aviva.

awec

And another Saturday game for Ulster if we get there.

.ak

I'd take a Monday evening kick off if it meant we get a home semi.

Eod100

.ak wrote: »

So it could be 2 semi's in a row in Aviva.

That'd be some weekend!