2013-4 Heineken Cup Discussion Thread

Cookiemunster

link_2007 wrote: »

Probably the best place to ask this - Does anyone know when they will release the date for the final for the 2015 Heineken Cup? The last few years it has been the 3rd/4th Saturday of May so I assume it will be similar next year?

Never. The 2014 final is the last one. There are rumours that the final of the new comp will be in late April / early May but we won't know until that new comp is announced.

neilmulvey

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/biased-wayne-barnes-to-referee-toulon-v-munster-1.1766605


bizarre from mad mourad.

.ak

neilmulvey wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/biased-wayne-barnes-to-referee-toulon-v-munster-1.1766605


bizarre from mad mourad.

To be honest I think anyone should be able to question a refs performance publicly after a game. But accusing someone of being biased, at any level, should invoke some sort of hearing . It's tantamount to slurring a refs character without evidence.

irishbucsfan

Firstly, its unprofessional to criticise referees publically. There are official channels for it, it's not constructive and just serves a means for scapegoating, the vast majority of people in the game are way above it and luckilly we don't see it often.

Mourad doesn't follow any of the rules though, so nothing is surprising when he gets his say in the press.

Rightwing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Firstly, its unprofessional to criticise referees publically. There are official channels for it, it's not constructive and just serves a means for scapegoating, the vast majority of people in the game are way above it and luckilly we don't see it often.

Mourad doesn't follow any of the rules though, so nothing is surprising when he gets his say in the press.

And now the same ref gets the semi. I like Barnes, but he's now been unfairly placed under massive pressure after the sugar daddy's comments.

Artful_Badger

Rightwing wrote: »

And now the same ref gets the semi. I like Barnes, but he's now been unfairly placed under massive pressure after the sugar daddy's comments.

Out of context that statement doesn't read too good.

thomond2006

Boudjellal's comments will be irrelevant. I'd say nothing compared to the 2007 talk for Wayne Barnes. This will be harmless in comparison.

irishbucsfan

Rightwing wrote: »

And now the same ref gets the semi. I like Barnes, but he's now been unfairly placed under massive pressure after the sugar daddy's comments.

He'll be under no pressure. It's not like he lives in a bubble and doesn't realise who Mourad is. He's completely capable of dealing with it.

If the chose another ref just because of one mouthy owner's comments it would be far more concerning.

Rightwing

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He'll be under no pressure. It's not like he lives in a bubble and doesn't realise who Mourad is. He's completely capable of dealing with it.

If the chose another ref just because of one mouthy owner's comments it would be far more concerning.

I agree with the 2nd part, and hopefully the 1st part will be the case. Time will tell.

former legend

.ak wrote: »

But accusing someone of being biased, at any level, should invoke some sort of hearing . It's tantamount to slurring a refs character without evidence.

Could we apply that to the forum charter?

Some of the stuff written about Barnes leading up to the Ireland v Wales game was embarrassing. A few Munster fans were resigning themselves to defeat in Marseilles with his appointment.

And of course there's the Roman Poite issue...

(Yes I know the owner of a club should be held to higher standards than random internetters.)

Edit: that's without even going into the Alain Rolland thing.

irishbucsfan

former legend wrote: »

Could we apply that to the forum charter?

Some of the stuff written about Barnes leading up to the Ireland v Wales game was embarrassing. A few Munster fans were resigning themselves to defeat in Marseilles with his appointment.

And of course there's the Roman Poite issue...

(Yes I know the owner of a club should be held to higher standards than random internetters.)

I wish there was something in the forum charter to cut out the nonsense written about refs on here, but I suppose it would be almost impossible to enforce on matchday in the official refbashing threads, it drives me mad.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I wish there was something in the forum charter to cut out the nonsense written about refs on here, but I suppose it would be almost impossible to enforce on matchday in the official refbashing threads, it drives me mad.

But that implies a ref should be free from criticism. Obviously you can't control when people go to far but half the conversations on the forum are players and coaches being analysed/criticised, refs shouldn't be immune from that when they mistakes or have a poor game

former legend

Tox56 wrote: »

But that implies a ref should be free from criticism. Obviously you can't control when people go to far but half the conversations on the forum are players and coaches being analysed/criticised, refs shouldn't be immune from that when they mistakes or have a poor game

It's one thing to criticise a ref for mistakes but another completely to stick the boot in a week before the game or to question his impartiality.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

But that implies a ref should be free from criticism. Obviously you can't control when people go to far but half the conversations on the forum are players and coaches being analysed/criticised, refs shouldn't be immune from that when they mistakes or have a poor game

People in game threads just go ahead and say "He has been rubbish today" and the vast majority of the time of course they are completely wrong. It ruins match threads. I don't have a problem criticising a decision if someone thinks its wrong, but it's completely over the top at the moment.

Rightwing

former legend wrote: »

It's one thing to criticise a ref for mistakes but another completely to stick the boot in a week before the game or to question his impartiality.

I haven't seen anyone put the boot in to Barnes.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

People in game threads just go ahead and say "He has been rubbish today" and the vast majority of the time of course they are completely wrong. It ruins match threads. I don't have a problem criticising a decision if someone thinks its wrong, but it's completely over the top at the moment.

Well in your opinion they're wrong, I think the overall quality of officiating in the Pro12 in pretty poor at the moment

Tox56

former legend wrote: »

It's one thing to criticise a ref for mistakes but another completely to stick the boot in a week before the game or to question his impartiality.

Don't disagree with that, the impartiality issue is particularly insane

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

Well in your opinion they're wrong, I think the overall quality of officiating in the Pro12 in pretty poor at the moment

Look at the Toulon game, there were people somehow suggesting Barnes was rubbish that day. It ruins the match thread because obviously he was very good but people default to "the ref has given us nothing" scapegoatism.

sydthebeat

Some refs are better than others, fact of life. Some great refs can make terrible decisions and vice versa. Some refs are very good at officiating certain aspects of the game but are poor at other aspects.

They should not be immune to criticism during and after a match.

I certainly agree that crap from boudjellyman should not be accepted at all.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Look at the Toulon game, there were people somehow suggesting Barnes was rubbish that day. It ruins the match thread because obviously he was very good but people default to "the ref has given us nothing" scapegoatism.

That isn't really true at all, he was a long way down the list of talking points. Obviously by allowing criticism you allow the fringe arguments but it's pretty unanimous with regular posters that he had a good game

danthefan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Look at the Toulon game, there were people somehow suggesting Barnes was rubbish that day. It ruins the match thread because obviously he was very good but people default to "the ref has given us nothing" scapegoatism.

Yeah, Barnes was fine. Of the list of things that caused Leinster to lose, Barnes was waaaaaaaay down the bottom somewhere. People grasp for an excuse when their team gets beaten I guess.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

That isn't really true at all, he was a long way down the list of talking points. Obviously by allowing criticism you allow the fringe arguments but it's pretty unanimous with regular posters that he had a good game

Not during the game though. And it's rarely regular posters who are the problem really.

Molester Stallone

Lacey & the Tmo last night didn't seem to cause any stirrings of discontent.....

Micky Dolenz

The past couple of Ulster games would have seen a lot of people banned if criticism of refs was forbidden.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Not during the game though. And it's rarely regular posters who are the problem really.

'The problem' is subjective, clearly you aren't going to tolerate much/any criticism of the ref, I obviously have different standards.

I think there has been some serious nonsense said about refs at various points but there is a lot said about officials that I think is reasonable, particularly in the Pro12

irishbucsfan

I think the annoying thing about the refereeing argument is that it's very hard to give evidence of a good refereeing performance. The quality of a ref's performance is generally very hard to give examples of. It's really easy to point out single mistakes (even if they're completely misinterpreted by the person doing the criticising) but very hard to point out examples of where quality preventative refereeing has been used. Refereeing rugby is incredibly hard and the top refs like Barnes, Owens, Poite, Rolland in his prime etc. should be treasured by the fans of the game.

Also, I suspect there are people who don't quite appreciate that a referee will have talked with teams and captains about his interpretation of certain grey areas of the laws (like the breakdown or scrum) before the game begins, so even if they don't like the interpretation it's rarely a surprise to players. And then disagreements or misunderstandings about interpretation turn into accusations of ineptitude very quickly...

danthefan

I actually thought Paterson did a fine job of the Leinster game on Friday. He was in complete control for the whole thing.

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The past couple of Ulster games would have seen a lot of people banned if criticism of refs was forbidden.

Nobody has complained about refs more than Munster on this board this season, by a significant distance.

CatFromHue

Other than the Payne Red Card, which alot of neutrals were happy that the ref was right and a good few on here too, what else went against Ulster recently?

danthefan

CatFromHue wrote: »

Other than the Payne Red Card, which alot of neutrals were happy that the ref was right and a good few on here too, what else went against Ulster recently?

There was a shocking TMO decision last night to award a try to Glasgow, even the player himself who scored looked surprised when it was given.

Micky Dolenz

danthefan wrote: »

Nobody has complained about refs more than Munster on this board this season, by a significant distance.

My statement still rings true.

Rightwing

danthefan wrote: »

I actually thought Paterson did a fine job of the Leinster game on Friday. He was in complete control for the whole thing.



Nobody has complained about refs more than Munster on this board this season, by a significant distance.

Probably nothing more scientific than Munster having the largest support.

CatFromHue

danthefan wrote: »

There was a shocking TMO decision last night to award a try to Glasgow, even the player himself who scored looked surprised when it was given.

On watching it again I can defo see why the TMO gave it.

Mahatma Geansai

Rightwing wrote: »

Probably nothing more scientific than Munster having the largest support.

Munster fans are very much outnumbered by Leinster lads on here.

There has been a lot of legitimate complaints about referees by Munster fans in recent weeks due to some poor/terrible performances which have helped shape the Pro12 table.

CatFromHue

Like which ones?

Mahatma Geansai

CatFromHue wrote: »

Like which ones?

Off-hand, the Scarlets and Leinster games were both poor referring performances where Munster suffered at the hand of local referees/TMOs.

Rightwing

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Munster fans are very much outnumbered by Leinster lads on here.

There has been a lot of legitimate complaints about referees by Munster fans in recent weeks due to some poor/terrible performances which have helped shape the Pro12 table.

Maybe regulars, but a lot of match day punters might be on complaining about refs.

Overall of course refs make mistakes, but they are far more costly in a big one off knockout H cup game.

Over the course of the season, the best team invariably wins the league.

former legend

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Off-hand, the Scarlets and Leinster games were both poor referring performances where Munster suffered at the hand of local referees/TMOs.

The ref did fine in the Leinster game. Munster were just sh*t.

What about the Treviso game?

Micky Dolenz

former legend wrote: »

The ref did fine in the Leinster game. Munster were just sh*t.

What about the Treviso game?

If memory serves me, ref made a few poor calls in the Treviso game.

Rightwing

Some may complain often legitimately about refs here, but it's not heavy criticism.

Just listening to jose mourinho there, that's shocking stuff. Hopefully rugby never goes down that road.

former legend

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

If memory serves me, ref made a few poor calls in the Treviso game.

Aye he did, with the assistance of the local TMO.

If people are going to complain about stupid baseless nonsense, they can at least be consistent in their drivel.

Mahatma Geansai

former legend wrote: »

The ref did fine in the Leinster game. Munster were just sh*t.

What about the Treviso game?

Munster weren't the better team, but Rolland did his former patmasters a huge service. The ref was very kind to Munster in the Treviso game, although I think we would have won otherwise.

I'm getting into silly conjecture now, but with everything else equal, Munster would be leading the Pro12 had we been subject to a higher standard of refereeing in recent weeks. We would have won against Scarlets and Leinster, and lost against the Italians.

Even ignoring that, there are valid reasons for the criticism of the refereeing performances in Munster's recent games.

.ak

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The past couple of Ulster games would have seen a lot of people banned if criticism of refs was forbidden.

Yeah, honestly if we start making criticising refs a ban offence where would it stop? We don't want to curtail people's enjoyment in discussing and criticising players and teams, so as such we have to extend the same right to criticise refs. It can be tiresome alright, but the refs performance is a talking point for all games in all corners of the rugby world.

So long as abuse isn't thrown out there, and nobody is breaking the charter in doing so, I don't think it's an issue. If a subject is being debated to death we'll deal with it.*






*unless if involves irishbucsfan and European rugby.

Micky Dolenz

former legend wrote: »

Aye he did, with the assistance of the local TMO.

If people are going to complain about stupid baseless nonsense, they can at least be consistent in their drivel.

Pretty sure a lot of posters on that thread were calling out the bad calls. I remember saying I would be livid if the calls were against us.

I think calling out the ref is done by all fans, not sure I agree with the poster here who says it's a mainly Munster fan base problem.

CatFromHue

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Munster weren't the better team, but Rolland did his former patmasters a huge service. The ref was very kind to Munster in the Treviso game, although I think we would have won otherwise.

I'm getting into silly conjecture now, but with everything else equal, Munster would be leading the Pro12 had we been subject to a higher standard of refereeing in recent weeks. We would have won against Scarlets and Leinster, and lost against the Italians.

Even ignoring that, there are valid reasons for the criticism of the refereeing performances in Munster's recent games.

You really are.

In the Connacht Munster match thread you were saying that the ball had been grounded twice before Butler's try. It hadn't been though and that's why it's hard to take some of your stuff seriously.

former legend

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Pretty sure a lot of posters on that thread were calling out the bad calls. I remember saying I would be livid if the calls were against us.

I think calling out the ref is done by all fans, not sure I agree with the poster here who says it's a mainly Munster fan base problem.

My point was that the poster said Munster lost out due to local officials but omitted to mention where Munster benefitted from it.

The vast bulk of Munster fans are no worse than the rest, just there are a couple who are so prolific at posting and so unbelievably unbalanced in everything they say that it can be easy to tar yiz all with the same brush...

Mahatma Geansai

former legend wrote: »

My point was that the poster said Munster lost out due to local officials but omitted to mention where Munster benefitted from it.

The vast bulk of Munster fans are no worse than the rest, just there are a couple who are so prolific at posting and so unbelievably unbalanced in everything they say that it can be easy to tar yiz all with the same brush...

Subtle... :rolleyes:

In recent weeks, poor performances by the officials has had a large impact on Munster's games. We've benefited once, and come away worse-off twice. There was significant and warranted discussion about all the instances.

awec

That's enough of this nonsense.

Rightwing

Absolutely.

Roll on the big one, we got through that game with no injuries, that was my main concern.

Woody1997

While I admit that Leinster lost to Toulon for a whole host of reasons other than Barnes, his, in my opinion, awful refereeing of the breakdown didn't help them at all. At one stage Bastareaud was not even close to supporting his own weight with one hand grabbing at the ball and Barnes gave the penalty to him. I reiterate that the referee was not the losing of this match for Leinster, but i find the notion that he had a very good game quite ridiculous.

irishbucsfan

Woody1997 wrote: »

While I admit that Leinster lost to Toulon for a whole host of reasons other than Barnes, his, in my opinion, awful refereeing of the breakdown didn't help them at all. At one stage Bastareaud was not even close to supporting his own weight with one hand grabbing at the ball and Barnes gave the penalty to him. I reiterate that the referee was not the losing of this match for Leinster, but i find the notion that he had a very good game quite ridiculous.

Well then I'd have to question your judgement to be honest. I've seen the game twice and I can't really understand how you could arrive at that conclusion, especially so decisively.