2013-4 Heineken Cup Discussion Thread

Micky Dolenz

Got messing for a finish. Lots of errors.

Grimebox

Three Irish in the quarters and not one in the final. I did not see that coming. I really fancied Ulster this year

vienne86

Grimebox wrote: »

Three Irish in the quarters and not one in the final. I did not see that coming. I really fancied Ulster this year

Disappointing all right. I had though Ulster would be in the final, but they was robbed. I am no fan of Toulon, but I detest Saracens.

Music Matters

Have to go for Toulon in the final even though they're one of the last teams I'd support, I detest Saracens though. Everything from some of the players, the plastic atmosphere and fake feel about them, and worst of all their owner Wray. Only thing they've got going for them is an Irish coach, which would usually mean they'd get some sort of support this side of the water, but not even that could make anybody like them. Toulon at least have someone like Wilkinson you can look up to and seem to have built team that plays for each other and a partisan fan base as well as a collection world stars.

Even if they win back to back cups they'll never be held in the same esteem from fans as the likes of Munster, Leinster, Toulouse, Leicester or Wasps. Disappointing way to end the HEC

thomond2006

The Cardiff pubs and hotels must be gutted that Munster lost! It's sad that the last Heineken final will be a largely non-event. Will there even be 40,000 supporters from either side there?

vienne86

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Cardiff pubs and hotels must be gutted that Munster lost! It's sad that the last Heineken final will be a largely non-event. Will there even be 40,000 supporters from either side there?

Spot on there - it'll be a dull affair, and a half full Millennium Stadium will be dire. To hell with the Cardiff pubs etc being gutted - you Munster fans over there must be truly gutted after that match......enjoy the rest of your stay in Marseille!

bilston

Ironic that there is an AP side and a Top 14 in the final of the HEC, it would be hilarious if it was an all Irish final next season in the first RCC!

Taco Corp

vienne86 wrote: »

Spot on there - it'll be a dull affair, and a half full Millennium Stadium will be dire. To hell with the Cardiff pubs etc being gutted - you Munster fans over there must be truly gutted after that match......enjoy the rest of your stay in Marseille!

just because I'm spiteful I really hope it is half empty

Micky Dolenz

It will be an epic final. By far and away the best English side v the best French side.

I'd go if I was in the area.

matthew8

All Heineken cup finals attract a lot of neutrals anyway. There'll be plenty there.

former legend

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Cardiff pubs and hotels must be gutted that Munster lost! It's sad that the last Heineken final will be a largely non-event. Will there even be 40,000 supporters from either side there?

Ah I think that's a bit churlish thomond, it won't be a non-event to the fans of each team and even if it's not a packed house, it's still a massive occasion. You can bet the TV companies are delighted anyway.

Every hotel room in Cardiff has been sold out for the guts of a year and the publicans will console themselves with the knowledge that Bath are in the Amlin final and might bring a good crowd since it's only an hour down the road.

Swan Curry

I have invested too much time and emotion into disliking Saracens to stop now.I know they've played a pretty good brand of rugby this year,I know Chris Ashton's actually a pretty likeable guy (apart from the swan dive obviously),I know they haven't just bought their way to success.I just need time to become accustomed to not wanting them to lose every match I see them in,is that really too much to ask?

thomond2006

former legend wrote: »

Ah I think that's a bit churlish thomond, it won't be a non-event to the fans of each team and even if it's not a packed house, it's still a massive occasion. You can bet the TV companies are delighted anyway.

Every hotel room in Cardiff has been sold out for the guts of a year and the publicans will console themselves with the knowledge that Bath are in the Amlin final and might bring a good crowd since it's only an hour down the road.

Churlish maybe but it's a pity if the last final isn't the best possible!

No way do I want Brendan "Three Cheers" Venter and Nigel Wray lifting the last title.

blackdog1

thomond2006 wrote: »

Churlish maybe but it's a pity if the last final isn't the best possible!

No way do I want Brendan "Three Cheers" Venter and Nigel Wray lifting the last title.

Saracens fans are the worst in the worl. Constantly banging drums and every time they take a kick at goal they do this ridiculous hand thing. God help you if your sitting in front or beside them.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Grandpa Hassan

blackdog1 wrote: »

Saracens fans are the worst in the worl. Constantly banging drums and every time they take a kick at goal they do this ridiculous hand thing. God help you if your sitting in front or beside them.

That's not fair at all. My experience of Saracens fans is that they've been great. Friendly and good banter

ThisRegard

Swan Curry wrote: »

I know Chris Ashton's actually a pretty likeable guy (apart from the swan dive obviously),

Just catching the highlights now but there were no swan dives today were there?

awec

Saracens v Toulon

A boot in the balls v a punch in the face

Eod100

Out out of curiosity why do folk not like Delon? Is it the taunting in last year's final? Or is there more to it?

CatFromHue

Eod100 wrote: »

Out out of curiosity why do folk not like Delon? Is it the taunting in last year's final? Or is there more to it?

He's actually a very good player but he's been banned an awful lot for doing stupid cheap things.

As in mindless things.

Hagz

Eod100 wrote: »

Out out of curiosity why do folk not like Delon? Is it the taunting in last year's final? Or is there more to it?

He's a dirty player. He always has been. I'd say if you watched the match back and only looked at him you'd catch him doing something dirty. Loves a cheap shot.

freyners

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

That's not fair at all. My experience of Saracens fans is that they've been great. Friendly and good banter

Went to both of Connachts matches vs Sarries this year, the away fans themselves are fine to be honest. Friendly people and decent banter, preferred the quins fans.

What struck me though was how meh most of their home fans where, they tried to get the stadium to sing the club song a la Munster pre match, no-one bought in to it. The apathy that greeted their scores as well was strange. You can see they are trying to create a club spirit but they are forcing it too hard

errlloyd

I'm happy for Bath actually. I hope they take the amlin home.

ScrubsfanChris

errlloyd wrote: »

I'm happy for Bath actually. I hope they take the amlin home.

And another European medal for Stringer

matthew8

If Bath and Northampton reach the Aviva final the Amlin could see some quite weakened teams.

irishbucsfan

I think Toulon are going to be able to account for Saracens comfortably unless we see a big change in the way Sarries play around the contact area.

Toulon and Sarries play with a similar shape, the difference is that Toulon can dominate the physical side of things both offensively and defensively. Saracens do that against weaker sides but I don't see it at the elite level. When Toulon play, in the majority of collisions in open play the ball ends up going towards their oppositions goal line and they take momentum from that. It gives them a lot of freedom at the breakdown as well because they're getting an extra split second every time thanks to where the tackled player is ending up.

A team that will be able to beat them will need to be able to move the ball quickly out of contact and move the ball quickly away from the breakdown. Sarries do at least get the ball away from the breakdown quickly, and Goode will really help them continue to do that throughout the deeper phases. But they're going to end up getting knocked back in the tackle area, and they don't have the skillset to move the ball out of those types of tackles when they have the ball. If you can draw Toulon's defensive focus onto a carrier and then move the ball quickly out to someone with more space, that's where you'll make ground against them.

If I had to pick a team in the competition to beat this Toulon team it would be Ulster. They have the midfield players capable of keeping the ball alive in contact (Cave, Payne, Bowe in particular). They have intelligent half backs who can set that up and they have a pack capable of keeping the ball in possession. Defending against Toulon is all about possession, you can't let them have too many phases or they'll just bulldoze you after 80 minutes. Based on the tournament this season, I think a Toulon/Ulster final would have been a really great spectacle. It's the sort of game that could go any way, it could be anything between a 1-30 point margin for either side! An Ulster/Sarries final in which one 15 didn't kamikaze the other would have been interesting as well.



Saying that, I don't think Saracens are completely beyond putting in a winning performance. They have a good pack, they have good half backs, they have Goode capable of coming in at pivot which is going to be hugely important in keeping the ball alive on short phases. But they need to either be able to dominate the contact area, which I don't think they physically are capable of, or they need to be able to get the ball away from it, which outside of the Vuniploa's I don't think they have the skillset for. They need to focus on one or the other and I'm fascinated to see what McCall goes with.

sydthebeat

Dare I say that sarries have had quite an easy ride into the final and may be a little bit cocky come Cardiff?

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

Dare I say that sarries have had quite an easy ride into the final and may be a little bit cocky come Cardiff?

In a group with Toulouse, quarter final against Ulster and a semi final against Clermont...

awec

Well, they just about beat an Ulster team playing with 14 men for 76 minutes and they steam rolled a Clermont team that looks like it didn't bother turning up.

I'm not sure about them being cocky, but the game v Toulon is going to be the first time we get to see them properly.

Unless Toulon get someone sent off after 5 minutes - hope that doesn't happen.

sydthebeat

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In a group with Toulouse, quarter final against Ulster and a semi final against Clermont...

Yes, completely.

This is the Toulouse that connacht beat at home and who Munster tore a new a-hole.

Saracens put up one point shy of 200 versus connacht and zebre in the group stages, and got through on bonus points.

Notwithstanding the controversial referring decisions that have gone their way, they have had a very easy ride through to the final.

its_phil

sydthebeat wrote: »

Yes, completely.

This is the Toulouse that connacht beat at home and who Munster tore a new a-hole.

Saracens put up one point shy of 200 versus connacht and zebre in the group stages, and got through on bonus points.

Notwithstanding the controversial referring decisions that have gone their way, they have had a very easy ride through to the final.

Can't say Saracens didn't get a game at Connacht. Defending their line at the end and didn't play that badly either. The other game, less said the better.

irishbucsfan

sydthebeat wrote: »

Yes, completely.

This is the Toulouse that connacht beat at home and who Munster tore a new a-hole.

Saracens put up one point shy of 200 versus connacht and zebre in the group stages, and got through on bonus points.

Notwithstanding the controversial referring decisions that have gone their way, they have had a very easy ride through to the final.

OK so, an easy ride it is.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In a group with Toulouse, quarter final against Ulster and a semi final against Clermont...

Toulouse aren't what they were, in fact far from it. Both Connacht and Munster proved that. Yet they still beat Sarries home and away. Sarries only qualified by virtue of the fact that they had Connacht and Zebre in their pool.

Ulster went down a man after 5 minutes and still put it up to them.

And Clermont were very poor on Saturday. Yes Sarries were good, but I'd have fancied any of the 3 big provinces to win against the Clermont side that showed up.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Toulouse aren't what they were, in fact far from it. Both Connacht and Munster proved that. Yet they still beat Sarries home and away. Sarries only qualified by virtue of the fact that they had Connacht and Zebre in their pool.

Ulster went down a man after 5 minutes and still put it up to them.

And Clermont were very poor on Saturday. Yes Sarries were good, but I'd have fancied any of the 3 big provinces to win against the Clermont side that showed up.

That's all true, but Saracens have not had an easy ride. Games against Ulster (in Ravenhill), Toulouse and Clermont are not easy, and certainly not against those teams in their current form.

People talk about Ulster being down a man after 5 minutes as if that is all that happened. Alex Goode is a big part of what they do in possession and Saracens were without him after 5 minutes as well, which completely limited them as well. Easy to ignore.

If they were playing the likes of Cardiff or Edinburgh, who have made the knockouts of the H Cup recently, then you could call it an easy ride. There have been far easier rides through the competition.

Hagz

In fairness, any club worth their salt should be able to win against 14 men. If you aren't able to seal the deal against 14 men for 70+ minutes then you have no right to be in the knockout stages of the Heineken Cup.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

People talk about Ulster being down a man after 5 minutes as if that is all that happened. Alex Goode is a big part of what they do in possession and Saracens were without him after 5 minutes as well, which completely limited them as well. Easy to ignore.

Ah would ya come off it. They had an extra man for 75 minutes. Goode may well have been a big part of what Sarries do and they may have lost him. But at least they got to replace him. Payne is a big part of what Ulster do. They lost him and couldn't replace him.

Look, at the end of the day if their pool didn't have Connacht and Zebre they would have struggled to make the QFs. Once they had made the knock-outs they had a man advantage for practically the entire game against Ulster. Then they faced a seriously underwhelming Clermont side. It might not have been "easy" per se (they made hard work of Connacht, lost twice to a fading Toulouse side and very nearly lost against Ulster) but as luck of the draw goes they did very, very well. They certainly have had the easiest road of the two finalists.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah would ya come off it. They had an extra man for 75 minutes. Goode may well have been a big part of what Sarries do and they may have lost him. But at least they got to replace him. Payne is a big part of what Ulster do. They lost him and couldn't replace him.

I never said they had it as hard as Ulster.

They were in Ravenhill, without an important player who they had planned to use. The fact Ulster had 14 men made it easier, but it was not an easy feat, look at the game. Ulster were down to 14 men but they were not the pushovers you're making them out to be.

And Somehow Saracens demolishing Clermont, last year's finalists, is an example of how easy they've had it? That's mental gymnastics.

Some people have made their minds up about Saracens and they'll use any stick they can find to beat them with, even if they have to invent one out of thin air. Saracens have had an easier run than Toulon, but not by much. Saracens' pool was a mile tougher than Toulon's, and I'm not sure Toulon would be as insurmountable as they were if they were away from home. And their QF/SF opponents were of similar standards.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

Look, at the end of the day if their pool didn't have Connacht and Zebre they would have struggled to make the QFs. Once they had made the knock-outs they had a man advantage for practically the entire game against Ulster. Then they faced a seriously underwhelming Clermont side. It might not have been "easy" per se (they made hard work of Connacht, lost twice to a fading Toulouse side and very nearly lost against Ulster) but as luck of the draw goes they did very, very well. They certainly have had the easiest road of the two finalists.

There's nothing to suggest that. They topped tougher pools in the last two seasons. Even if they didn't get the try bonus points they did, they'd have probably qualified (they were 3 points clear of the next best runner up). If they just took one of the three try bonus points they did against Zebre and Connacht, they'd have qualified.

I don't think they'd have beaten Ulster in Belfast but they've gradually become one of the best sides in Europe and have progressed further each season.

Clermont aren't the side they were but they were made to look like a poor side at the weekend by a very good Saracens outfit.

I think the fact that most people expect if to be a very tight game in the final is testament to the fact that Saracens, love them or loathe them, are a very good team.

Tox56

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I never said they had it as hard as Ulster.

They were in Ravenhill, without an important player who they had planned to use. The fact Ulster had 14 men made it easier, but it was not an easy feat, look at the game. Ulster were down to 14 men but they were not the pushovers you're making them out to be.

And Somehow Saracens demolishing Clermont, last year's finalists, is an example of how easy they've had it? That's mental gymnastics.

Depends how you define it. Maybe they didn't have an easy ride per se, but before the semi final you would have said they were very unconvincing and relatively lucky to be at the stage they were.

The only teams they beat in the group stages were Connacht and Zebre, losing home and away to a Toulouse side that was made to look distinctly average against both Munster and Connacht (Saracens should have at the very least expected to win 1 of those games, and if they're as good as they showed in Twickenham, both) and they were hugely unconvincing in the quarters against a side with 14 men for practically the entire game.

Some people have made their minds up about Saracens and they'll use any stick they can find to beat them with, even if they have to invent one out of thin air

To me this is as bad as the mindless stick beating you're complaining about, you are outright refusing to see the other side of the argument. Nothing has been invented out of thin air, even if you don't agree with them, the arguments made have been largely logical and reasonable

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

Depends how you define it. Maybe they didn't have an easy ride per se, but before the semi final you would have said they were very unconvincing and relatively lucky to be at the stage they were.

The only teams they beat in the group stages were Connacht and Zebre, losing home and away to a Toulouse side that was made to look distinctly average against both Munster and Connacht (Saracens should have at the very least expected to win 1 of those games, and if they're as good as they showed in Twickenham, both) and they were hugely unconvincing in the quarters against a side with 14 men for practically the entire game.



To me this is as bad as the mindless stick beating you're complaining about, you are outright refusing to see the other side of the argument. Nothing has been invented out of thin air, even if you don't agree with them, the arguments made have been largely logical and reasonable

Hang on now, this isn't a discussion about how good or bad Saracens are, or whether they should have beaten Toulouse.

People are trying to say they had an easy road.

I completely agree that if they're as good as they looked last weekend they should have shown up better against Toulouse. I disagree about Ulster because I think Ulster are much better in Ravenhill than that whether or not they have 15 men on the field.

phog

Semi Final Hits

CatFromHue

phog wrote: »

Semi Final Hits

That really was a hospital pass from Lualala to Zebo, in his own 22 too!

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ulster were down to 14 men but they were not the pushovers you're making them out to be.

Never said that.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And Somehow Saracens demolishing Clermont, last year's finalists, is an example of how easy they've had it? That's mental gymnastics.

Never said that.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Some people have made their minds up about Saracens and they'll use any stick they can find to beat them with, even if they have to invent one out of thin air.

I've been complimentary of Sarries recently and was quite clear yesterday that I don't get the Sarries hate. Thin air eh!?

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Saracens have had an easier run than Toulon, but not by much. Saracens' pool was a mile tougher than Toulon's, and I'm not sure Toulon would be as insurmountable as they were if they were away from home. And their QF/SF opponents were of similar standards.

Jesus wept. Really!? Cardiff and Glasgow are both ahead of Zebre and Connacht in the league. Glasgow by a distance. Toulouse are certainly better than Exeter, but if you can guarantee yourself over 15 points from 2 members of your pool that doesn't matter. Clearly. Because Toulouse won both games and Sarries still go through. It's bloody madness to suggest Sarries had a tougher pool. Madness.

In case my last post wasn't clear, my position is that Sarries had a lucky run more-so than an easy one. And to further clarify my position, I rate Sarries quite highly. Their defense on Saturday was outstanding and this season they genuinely seem to have put paid to the negative rugby stereotype (bear in mind I don't have BT Sport so haven't seen much of them). I think at this stage you're just so used to people arguing the polar opposite to you you're starting to see it where it's not there. Take a step back and look at my last post again. None of it was fantasy or illogical at all.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

There's nothing to suggest that. They topped tougher pools in the last two seasons. Even if they didn't get the try bonus points they did, they'd have probably qualified (they were 3 points clear of the next best runner up). If they just took one of the three try bonus points they did against Zebre and Connacht, they'd have qualified.

I don't think they'd have beaten Ulster in Belfast but they've gradually become one of the best sides in Europe and have progressed further each season.

Clermont aren't the side they were but they were made to look like a poor side at the weekend by a very good Saracens outfit.

I think the fact that most people expect if to be a very tight game in the final is testament to the fact that Saracens, love them or loathe them, are a very good team.

I agree completely with that verdict on Sarries. However I would add that had at least one of Zebre or Connacht been a slightly better side you could argue that not only would they have not gotten some of the TBPs but they may not have won all the games. Remember they only just held out against Connacht in the Sportsground. Had they lost 3 games they'd only have managed a max of 18 points. They'd have needed all 18 to qualify ahead of Saints.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Jesus wept. Really!? Cardiff and Glasgow are both ahead of Zebre and Connacht in the league. Glasgow by a distance. Toulouse are certainly better than Exeter, but if you can guarantee yourself over 15 points from 2 members of your pool that doesn't matter. Clearly. Because Toulouse won both games and Sarries still go through. It's bloody madness to suggest Sarries had a tougher pool. Madness.

A group against Exeter, Glasgow and Cardiff is easier than any group including Toulouse. The goal is to finish top of the group and get yourself a home quarter final. It's very easy. Put it this was, if the group was Exeter, Glasgow and Cardiff with Saraces, then who would you put your money on to finish top?

Also, if you don't think they had an easy run, then I don't know why you're disagreeing.

Swiwi.

Is this the new "The European club rugby debacle continues part IV: the quest for peace" thread :P

IBF takes on every man and his dog...

Ye're a man of your convictions, I'll give you that!

OldRio

Swiwi. wrote: »

Is this the new "The European club rugby debacle continues part IV: the quest for peace" thread :P

IBF takes on every man and his dog...

Ye're a man of your convictions, I'll give you that!

I can think of much more suitable description.

But best not go there. I can't be getting a ban at the business end of the season. So unprofessional.

thomond2006

Wray wants/wanted the likes of Connacht and Zebre thrown out and his team gets to the final partly thanks to those two sides being in their group. Lolzers.

Buer

Interesting comments from Shaggy, Birch, Thornley and Toland on their respective rugby spots yesterday. Aside from their analysis on the Munster/Toulon game, they talked a little about Irish rugby's chances in future.

For the first time, I heard GT say the Pro12 is too weak a league (with the obligatory backhanded compliment to the "bloated" T14 and AP). Himself and Horgan both reckoned that, unless the exodus is halted, Irish players will start to follow suit. In Horgan's opinion, the lads want to play against good players and, if they're not testing themselves on a regular basis, they'll start to consider elsewhere more strongly which makes complete sense. If it's a nothing league, players won't want to stay.

I think it was Toland who said that he thinks Munster need 5 new players in their side to be contenders for the new cup (taking into account the departure of two centres). Jackman was of a similar disposition in relation to Leinster regarding recruitment, citing the NIQ players they had available in 2009 compared to what's in their squad now.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

A group against Exeter, Glasgow and Cardiff is easier than any group including Toulouse. The goal is to finish top of the group and get yourself a home quarter final. It's very easy. Put it this was, if the group was Exeter, Glasgow and Cardiff with Saraces, then who would you put your money on to finish top?

Also, if you don't think they had an easy run, then I don't know why you're disagreeing.

I would have put my money on Sarries to top the pool they were in. They didn't. And they didn't because they were so utterly unconvincing in the pool stages. The fact that they had Connacht and Zebre in their pool is mainly why that didn't cost them. Had they had Glasgow instead of Connacht for example it's conceivable that they wouldn't have qualified for the knock- outs.

Look it's not all or nothing IBF. I don't think they had it easy, but that doesn't mean that everything sydthebeat said was completely without merit. I was trying to be conciliatory and find the middle ground. The general jist of what sydthebeat said was fair while at the same time I'd agree with you that they didn't have it easy. It's probably more accurate to say they were lucky. A slightly different pool could well have meant they didn't reach the QFs. A full strength Ulster side in Ravenhill could easily have knocked them out there. And for as good as they were on Saturday (and they were, I'm not trying to belittle them here) the penalty try was a dodgy decision and Clermont just don't have the top 2 inches. They played the game all wrong, kicked horribly in the opening quarter and let their heads drop far too early. Had they faced Toulon or Munster it's hard to know for sure how they'd have fared.