A lost art ?

josie19

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Fair point,

But you do have lads on here who use them from 50 yards in and less.

Lets be honest - what's within the rules is been pushed by the industry and big money these days, as opposed to based on any principle.

But - the world turns.

Nothing wrong with lasering from inside 50 yards - I would say distance control from 80 yards in is the most crucial aspect of the game in terms of lowering your score. For me 65yds is a peach for my 58 degree Vokey. A comfortable full swing and I'd expect to be inside 6/7 feet. But the main thing here is the confidence I feel when I read that yardage on the laser. I have other nice feel good yardages from 40 yards etc.

One thing that seems to be forgotten in this discussion is eyesight. I'm in my 50's wearing glasses and I wouldn't have a clue from 150m if the flag was front back or middle. Most greens are 30 yards or more from front to back and that's 3 clubs for most people.

I just laser it, pick the club I can hit to that distance and swing. Takes less time than walking forward to markers and pacing/counting, then asking playing partners where's the flag?

As regards a lost art - What modern Pro uses feel for distance? They have caddies with their yardage books that provide the same accuracy as laser since those yardage books have been prepared using laser technology

alxmorgan

The_Architect wrote: »

You see,

For me, that is an integral part of what golf is. Without that mental decision making, you are removing one part of the sport. A unique part as well, given that every golf course is different.

I find that all those decisions are made by feel and eyeballing as you approach your ball. And hence it is a quicker way to play.

Not for me I'm afraid. Doubt = slowness
And I don't see this as decision making. Distance is a fact. Whether I can hit it over the hazard is a complex pot of factors both in and outside my control but distance is not one of them.
Without it I would need to get better at judging distance but its one less thing to worry about which I'm happy with.

The_Architect

Josie,

The eyesight thing is the one thing that makes me concede why there should be a 150m marker post (but nothing else). The pro thing gives me the shivers – why do we all feel that we need to copy the pros? They are pampered beyond belief, they play the game for a living and they have far too much sway (and say) in the way the game has developed.

Alx,

Distance is fact but it does not relate to the variable of how far you will hit the ball given elevation changes, wind, firmness of ground, slope and general lack of consistent ability. Choosing a club is a decision and one that is key to the sport. The best players always played primarily by feel and always could choose any one of three or four shot options (read clubs) to get to the end result.

If distance devices (and multiple yardage markers) were all banned, we’d all find our heads being released of yet more superfluous information.

I think Fixedpitchmark is dead on in this thread.

josie19

The_Architect wrote: »

Josie,

The eyesight thing is the one thing that makes me concede why there should be a 150m marker post (but nothing else). The pro thing gives me the shivers – why do we all feel that we need to copy the pros? They are pampered beyond belief, they play the game for a living and they have far too much sway (and say) in the way the game has developed.

Alx,

Distance is fact but it does not relate to the variable of how far you will hit the ball given elevation changes, wind, firmness of ground, slope and general lack of consistent ability. Choosing a club is a decision and one that is key to the sport. The best players always played primarily by feel and always could choose any one of three or four shot options (read clubs) to get to the end result.

If distance devices (and multiple yardage markers) were all banned, we’d all find our heads being released of yet more superfluous information.

I think Fixedpitchmark is dead on in this thread.

150m markers don't tell me where the flag is. I also find it difficult to 2 putt from 70 odd feet but I'm generally ok from 30 feet.

I used to have 20/20 vision but alas no more

alxmorgan

The_Architect wrote: »

Alx,

Distance is fact but it does not relate to the variable of how far you will hit the ball given elevation changes, wind, firmness of ground, slope and general lack of consistent ability. Choosing a club is a decision and one that is key to the sport.

Agree they are all very important factors but surely distance is very important. If I told you you could play a course and I would give you a target line but never allow you to look at your target how do you think you would get on ?

The_Architect wrote: »

The best players always played primarily by feel and always could choose any one of three or four shot options (read clubs) to get to the end result.

If distance devices (and multiple yardage markers) were all banned, we’d all find our heads being released of yet more superfluous information.

All of the top players these days spend a lot of time looking at yardage books where is everything is measured to the nth degree. Not sure what it was like back in the day

And I cannot see how how far you are from something is superfluous information. My head would be released from knowing how far I was away but replaced with constantly trying to judge it and the frustration of not knowing whether my shot or my distance judgement was off.

gorfield

Here goes...............

Ive had the same thing of forgetting my laser and i felt so lost, every shot i hit was riddled with doubt, good thing? possibly... Bad thing? possibly.... Defo took me longer to get ready to hit my iron shots.

It defo speeds up play in my opinion, however on windy days on a links, of which i play many... I will take notes of shots hit into wind, downwind.

eg: Hole 2, 150yds into wind. 5 iron pin high. Now i usually hit my 8 iron 150yds so next time im playing into the wind i know that its a 3 club wind that day, and vice versa for downwind shots. Simple but very effective i find.

Crosswinds are dependant on shot shape.

The_Architect

Josie,

Agreed you may not be able to tell exactly where the flag is – but you will have a rough idea. And unless you are playing off scratch, the middle of the green will help you score better every time.

Alx,

It is superfluous information because it is extra numerical clutter. Judgement is one of the main ingredients of the game and therefore cannot count as brain clutter. On your other point, If you gave me a target line but didn’t allow me to see the target then I would get on less well. But this is because I need to see the target to visualise it. i.e. it is not all about data. Think you may have helped my case with that point. I may steal that in future if you don’t mind?

FixdePitchmark

gorfield wrote: »

Here goes...............

Ive had the same thing of forgetting my laser and i felt so lost, every shot i hit was riddled with doubt, good thing? possibly... Bad thing? possibly.... Defo took me longer to get ready to hit my iron shots.

It defo speeds up play in my opinion, however on windy days on a links, of which i play many... I will take notes of shots hit into wind, downwind.

eg: Hole 2, 150yds into wind. 5 iron pin high. Now i usually hit my 8 iron 150yds so next time im playing into the wind i know that its a 3 club wind that day, and vice versa for downwind shots. Simple but very effective i find.

Crosswinds are dependant on shot shape.

One of the few times ever I can say I do the same thing as gorfield . But, I do above, will take a hole or 2 to calibrate. But draw a circle on card and write exact distance. I know how the 7 and 9 are relative to the 8.

For me it is going to be the clubs in 6 to sw range most of the day.

On tee it is driver or not - that range is a 100 yard change for me - so it is a big step to clear danger or play short.

But hey maybe that is why I'm hanging around 9 - 10 , But I honestly feel most of my shots are lost from 40 yards in.

Anyway - will give it a go for a few months - get one at xmas.

josie19

The_Architect wrote: »

Josie,

Agreed you may not be able to tell exactly where the flag is – but you will have a rough idea. And unless you are playing off scratch, the middle of the green will help you score better every time.

Alx,

It is superfluous information because it is extra numerical clutter. Judgement is one of the main ingredients of the game and therefore cannot count as brain clutter. On your other point, If you gave me a target line but didn’t allow me to see the target then I would get on less well. But this is because I need to see the target to visualise it. i.e. it is not all about data. Think you may have helped my case with that point. I may steal that in future if you don’t mind?

Disagree completely. Irrespect of your handicap, the closer you are to the flag will help you score better every time. The middle of the green could leave you a lightning fast put to the front on some greens.

Perhaps we'll agree to differ on this one.

FixdePitchmark

josie19 wrote: »

Disagree completely. Irrespect of your handicap, the closer you are to the flag will help you score better every time. The middle of the green could leave you a lightning fast put to the front on some greens.

Perhaps we'll agree to differ on this one.

What do you play off and how many strokes has it improved your game ?

BTW "agree to differ" is a very noble thing to do around here - and not being smart there.

alxmorgan

The_Architect wrote: »

Alx,

It is superfluous information because it is extra numerical clutter. Judgement is one of the main ingredients of the game and therefore cannot count as brain clutter. On your other point, If you gave me a target line but didn’t allow me to see the target then I would get on less well. But this is because I need to see the target to visualise it. i.e. it is not all about data. Think you may have helped my case with that point. I may steal that in future if you don’t mind?

I can't see how a fact is clutter.

You can use away but I don't think it helps your case at all
Your visualisation includes a judgement of distance. I visualise every shot but I add to that the fact I know which is distance.

Let me ask you this...if your way is the best way then why do all pros use detailed yardage books ?

alxmorgan

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

What do you play off and how many strokes has it improved your game ?

Its a good question Fix but impossible to answer truth be told. If I lost 3 strokes since I bought one how can I isolate that factor from others such as lessons, practice, experience, Greebo drilling course management into me (:D) etc ?

FixdePitchmark

alxmorgan wrote: »

I can't see how a fact is clutter.

You can use away but I don't think it helps your case at all
Your visualisation includes a judgement of distance. I visualise every shot but I add to that the fact I know which is distance.

Let me ask you this...if your way is the best way then why do all pros use detailed yardage books ?

Good point - I don't think anybody is arguing that everything is not allowed during preparation - that is course walking , yardage books etc, etc.

But a laser in the field of play is a paradigm shift.

FixdePitchmark

alxmorgan wrote: »

Its a good question Fix but impossible to answer truth be told. If I lost 3 strokes since I bought one how can I isolate that factor from others such as lessons, practice, experience, Greebo drilling course management into me (:D) etc ?

Ahhh it is the Greebo drilling then.

Joke - jaysus you'll get me in trouble.

What I want on here - amazing they are not falling out of the trees on a forum full of golf nuts.

But a player - who got a DMS or DMD (Is that it ? or PMS) - And is now lower. I want them to explain with a good confidence, that it was purely down to PMS :P

Sorry lads - heading off to practice putting

ForeRight

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Ahhh it is the Greebo drilling then.

Joke - jaysus you'll get me in trouble.

What I want on here - amazing they are not falling out of the trees on a forum full of golf nuts.

But a player - who got a DMS or DMD (Is that it ? or PMS) - And is now lower. I want them to explain with a good confidence, that it was purely down to PMS :P

Sorry lads - heading off to practice putting

Don't forget your bushnell to measure your long putts

alxmorgan

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Sorry lads - heading off to practice putting

Make sure you borrow a laser for the longer ones

Edit : Ah you beat me to it !!!!!

josie19

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

What do you play off and how many strokes has it improved your game ?

BTW "agree to differ" is a very noble thing to do around here - and not being smart there.

I play off 9. Was off 12/13 before I got the laser. Impossible to say how many strokes it has improved my game but it gives me confidence to commit to every shot in the knowledge that I have the right club in my hand. Confidence is everything in golf.

FixdePitchmark

ForeRight wrote: »

Don't forget your bushnell to measure your long putts

Was going to say something like that.

Just hoping on the horse with the pigeon in hand in case she needs a message.

The_Architect

Josie, perhaps I put it wrong. I mean play for the middle of the green and you will end up better over the course of 18 holes. You may think this sounds unlikely but I can assure you it isn’t.

Alx, again the pros. They do indeed do their own preparation and get given an unusual amount of information as well. They can place their shots on to a ha’penny piece though…. I am not necessarily arguing that distance aids don’t give you an advantage. I am arguing why you (or anyone) should think that advantage is your right. If I had my way, I wouldn’t allow professionals to have any distance information either. Current pros are a different breed to the shotmakers of 50+ years ago. They are more like automatons, not golfers. In fact, I’d do away with caddies altogether and make them walk.

ForeRight

josie19 wrote: »

I play off 9. Was off 12/13 before I got the laser. Impossible to say how many strokes it has improved my game but it gives me confidence to commit to every shot in the knowledge that I have the right club in my hand. Confidence is everything in golf.

It's all about the confidence Josie!!!!!

Regards,

Gok

FixdePitchmark

josie19 wrote: »

I play off 9. Was off 12/13 before I got the laser. Impossible to say how many strokes it has improved my game but it gives me confidence to commit to every shot in the knowledge that I have the right club in my hand. Confidence is everything in golf.

Well there is one - but again, I think people buy one when they are taking golf very/more serious.

No wonder my putting is so bad.

FixdePitchmark

The_Architect wrote: »

Josie, perhaps I put it wrong. I mean play for the middle of the green and you will end up better over the course of 18 holes. You may think this sounds unlikely but I can assure you it isn’t.

Alx, again the pros. They do indeed do their own preparation and get given an unusual amount of information as well. They can place their shots on to a ha’penny piece though…. I am not necessarily arguing that distance aids don’t give you an advantage. I am arguing why you (or anyone) should think that advantage is your right. If I had my way, I wouldn’t allow professionals to have any distance information either. Current pros are a different breed to the shotmakers of 50+ years ago. They are more like automatons, not golfers. In fact, I’d do away with caddies altogether and make them walk.

The Architect - I think your view is an extreme one.

ForeRight

I got one when I was off 10 or so. I only got it because I had credit in the pro shop really.

Could it have done without it....yes

Could I do without it now..... No chance


I find it brilliant for when I've missed a fairway wild and saves me having to spend an age trying to work out yardage for club selection. That's the main pro I find with it.
I play off 5 now bit impossible to tell how many if any strokes the device saves me in a round. If it saves one stroke a round I'm happy with that.

ssbob

I reckon in my heart of hearts I have saved 2/3 shots per round based on using my laser, has made no difference to my handicap as my handicap was too low when I bought it but my gross scores have improved from averaging 100-105 before I got it to averaging 92-98 now and I put 2/3 shots of that down to laser.

PARlance

ForeRight wrote: »

It's all about the confidence Josie!!!!!

Regards,

Gok

ForeRight wrote: »

If it saves WAN stroke a round I'm happy with that.

alxmorgan

The_Architect wrote: »

Alx, again the pros. They do indeed do their own preparation and get given an unusual amount of information as well. They can place their shots on to a ha’penny piece though…. I am not necessarily arguing that distance aids don’t give you an advantage. I am arguing why you (or anyone) should think that advantage is your right. If I had my way, I wouldn’t allow professionals to have any distance information either. Current pros are a different breed to the shotmakers of 50+ years ago. They are more like automatons, not golfers. In fact, I’d do away with caddies altogether and make them walk.

Ah this is different. I agree it does give me an advantage for sure. Otherwise I wouldn't use it. I thought we were arguing a different point

GreeBo

The_Architect wrote: »

The best players always played primarily by feel and always could choose any one of three or four shot options (read clubs) to get to the end result.

You can still have shot -making and multiple options with a laser.
The reality is that it just gives confirmation for what you are talking about eyeing up "naturally"
Once youve decided on the distance/club you can then think about the options...how you determined the distance is irrelevant at this stage.
Do you think there is no shot making from the tee on par 3s?

realgolfgeek

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you think there is no shot making from the tee on par 3s?

not when you lay up on a par 3 Greebo

The_Architect

GreeBo wrote: »

You can still have shot -making and multiple options with a laser.
The reality is that it just gives confirmation for what you are talking about eyeing up "naturally"
Once youve decided on the distance/club you can then think about the options...how you determined the distance is irrelevant at this stage.
Do you think there is no shot making from the tee on par 3s?

Agreed that you have multiple options if you know the distance.

But you will find the ones who exercise those different options are the ones who are generally used to playing by feel.... Those who rely solely on a distance aid are the ones who say "155 yards = 7 iron"

The bottom line is if all distance aids were banned tomorrow, we'd still be playing off a level playing field. Some people would have an advantage over others if they could visualise and feel the shot better but I contend that that is an integral part of the game and they deserve that advantage. Those who rely now on distances would themselves be surprised within 10 or so rounds how that feel was starting to come back to them...

In other words, I agree that it is becoming a "lost art"... and that is a great shame because it is diminishing the game...

GreeBo

The_Architect wrote: »

Agreed that you have multiple options if you know the distance.

But you will find the ones who exercise those different options are the ones who are generally used to playing by feel.... Those who rely solely on a distance aid are the ones who say "155 yards = 7 iron"

I'd have to disagree.
I hit a PW from 105M.
Once I have determined this I then adjust for the conditions. This can be anything from firing a 56* up into the tail wind, or punching a 7i if im into a gale.

How I figured the 105M is again irrelevant. The "155yrds = 7iron" is the starting point for the shot decision process, not the end.

The_Architect

GreeBo wrote: »

I'd have to disagree.
I hit a PW from 105M.
Once I have determined this I then adjust for the conditions. This can be anything from firing a 56* up into the tail wind, or punching a 7i if im into a gale.

How I figured the 105M is again irrelevant. The "155yrds = 7iron" is the starting point for the shot decision process, not the end.

It sounds to me like you're probably a decent candidate for feeling the shot... and hence would stand to gain an advantage over those who are not should distance aids be banned...

You should be all for their elimination.

I'll throw one little bone to the other side in to the mix. Distance aids became more of a necessity with the invention of target golf due to the progression of equipment, soft conditions and penal water carries. Play a course with wind, firmness, cunning design and elevation changes with old equipment and they really mean nothing.

We should be embracing the mental challenge rather than bemoaning it. A traditionalist I may be but I think "advances" in the game have done more to hurt it rather than help it.

Dublin Spur

The_Architect wrote: »

We should be embracing the mental challenge rather than bemoaning it. A traditionalist I may be but I think "advances" in the game have done more to hurt it rather than help it.

would agree with all of this - well said

less of the robotics please

GreeBo

The_Architect wrote: »

We should be embracing the mental challenge rather than bemoaning it. A traditionalist I may be but I think "advances" in the game have done more to hurt it rather than help it.

So we go back to lads pacing out 40M every few holes or so?

I'll take techonological help over slow play anyday of the week.
slow play has done more to hurt the game than GPS or Lasers ever will.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

So we go back to lads pacing out 40M every few holes or so?

I'll take techonological help over slow play anyday of the week.
slow play has done more to hurt the game than GPS or Lasers ever will.

Two hurts don't make it right.

Anyway, don't agree it slows it down - I pace from marker behind. Am thinking as walking - 9 iron, 8 iron, looking. Slow players are slow at everything in general. A laser from sub 50 yards versus someone who just hits - how on earth are they slower. I think if people are bringing speed of play into this , they are on a loser on debate.

Give us handicap drops.

alxmorgan

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Two hurts don't make it right.

Anyway, don't agree it slows it down - I pace from marker behind. Am thinking as walking - 9 iron, 8 iron, looking. Slow players are slow at everything in general. A laser from sub 50 yards versus someone who just hits - how on earth are they slower. I think if people Iare bringing speed of play into this , they are on a loser on debate.

Give us handicap drops.

Not many markers where my drives land !!!

FixdePitchmark

alxmorgan wrote: »

Not many markers where my drives land !!!

Well I'm always 60 yards from green - so no problem for me - still s**t but

The_Architect

GreeBo wrote: »

So we go back to lads pacing out 40M every few holes or so?

I'll take techonological help over slow play anyday of the week.
slow play has done more to hurt the game than GPS or Lasers ever will.

Well no. Which is why I'd get rid of the markers as well.

Look, I realise my view can be seen as extreme. Really I just want golfers to question where the sport is headed and recognise the essence of where it came from.

Once upon a time, rounds took an average of 2.5 hours. They managed to play quickly in the past. There are many more basic reasons why that has changed. Distance aids vs slow play is but a drop in that ocean but the mentality that makes us believe we should have them certainly isn't.

FixdePitchmark

The_Architect wrote: »

Well no. Which is why I'd get rid of the markers as well.

Look, I realise my view can be seen as extreme. Really I just want golfers to question where the sport is headed and recognise the essence of where it came from.

Once upon a time, rounds took an average of 2.5 hours. They managed to play quickly in the past. There are many more basic reasons why that has changed. Distance aids vs slow play is but a drop in that ocean but the mentality that makes us believe we should have them certainly isn't.

Give me a non laser user over a lad I seen last week - he had a full one handed shot routine - then a two handed shot routine - then a freeze. He is the sort of lad who would have a laser - sorry joking there - but he needs a mirror not a laser.

ForeRight

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Give me a non laser user over a lad I seen last week - he had a full one handed shot routine - then a two handed shot routine - then a freeze. He is the sort of lad who would have a laser - sorry joking there - but he needs a mirror not a laser.

A mirror?

Was his hair all messy or something?

FixdePitchmark

ForeRight wrote: »

A mirror?

Was his hair all messy or something?

No perfect of course, spent the morning fixing it before he got out. Then , not joking I played 2 holes in the time he played one. A joke. He was good looking but :P

Anyway - we digressed - I think the pace of play is a red herring.

I'll race anybody here in a round with a laser.

Sorry - handicap drops is what I'm waiting for.



Lads what is the best laser to ask her for, for xmas.

josie19

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

No perfect of course, spent the morning fixing it before he got out. Then , not joking I played 2 holes in the time he played one. A joke. He was good looking but :P

Anyway - we digressed - I think the pace of play is a red herring.

I'll race anybody here in a round with a laser.

Sorry - handicap drops is what I'm waiting for.



Lads what is the best laser to ask her for, for xmas.

http://www.mcguirksgolf.com/bushnell-pro-1600-rangefinder/bolh9905pd.html

Wait for halpenny 20% off text. 7 times magnification means you don't need steady hands like a bomb dismantler !

PARlance

josie19 wrote: »

http://www.mcguirksgolf.com/bushnell-pro-1600-rangefinder/bolh9905pd.html

Wait for halpenny 20% off text. 7 times magnification means you don't need steady hands like a bomb dismantler !

When is a special offer not a special offer
McGuirks offering €6 off a product that was €395, hurry folks, it's a massive 1.5% off

ssbob

Played some holes last night while messing around with a few different things we have been talking about on here these past few weeks, one thing I did was measured every shot on eye only, didn't use markers just the naked eye.

Over 8 holes I was pin high 4 times(not on the green all of those times but right club), over the back twice and short twice, normally would never be over the back with laser but sometimes come up short!

FixdePitchmark

ajcurry123 wrote: »

When is a special offer not a special offer
McGuirks offering €6 off a product that was €395, hurry folks, it's a massive 1.5% off

400 euro :eek::eek:

As we said golfers are mental.

for that can it do excel and word.

josie19

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

400 euro :eek::eek:

As we said golfers are mental.

for that can it do excel and word.

I got one a couple of years ago for €280 (€350 with 20% off)

Can't understand how that model is going up in price to be honest

FixdePitchmark

Wife "What do you want for Christmas"
Me " A neo Bushnell thing with a laser thing"
wife " What is that for ---- golf I guess"
Me " Yes - measures things " " Flags and stuff"
wife " youd imagine they would have little flags or something on course for that"
me " emmmm - yes - but"
wife "but - what"
me " I hit a 9 iron long once"
wife "golfers"
me " I know - yourself love?"
wife " Nice expensive bag for my shoes"
me " Is there not a plastic bag for that - joking love - no problem ":P

FixdePitchmark

Now can't see how from tee box that speeds up play.

Even Mark shows the problem. Glad I watched that.

josie19

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Now can't see how from tee box that speeds up play.

Even Mark shows the problem. Glad I watched that.

Never seen anyone use them on the tee box (except par 3's)

Don't know what problem you thought Mark had (apart from leaving his bag behind). He seemed to like the hybrid a lot - but they're very expensive - €500