Define dynamic shooting?

cathalomurchu

Ok so AFAIK dynamic shooting or run n' gun is an illegal activity in Ireland because it simulates combat. Well define combat. I can't see how shooting at targets and moving at the same time is simulating combat or a firefight. It would be great to have other peoples opinions on this matter.

Sparks

Moved from Target Shooting because of the no-politics rule in the charter.

IRLConor

It hasn't been tested in court as far as I know, so until that happens you're unlikely to get any clear idea of where some of the boundaries lie. Like with many things in Irish firearms law you really don't want to be the test case.

As I understand it, the intention was to ban IPSC-style shooting because "idontlikedelookadat". If that is true (as I suspect it is) then whether or not dynamic shooting resembles combat or combat training is moot since the powers that be believe it does.

In theory, it's possible that there's some loophole there due to a poor definition. In practice, to find out if there is or not someone has to be willing to pay up to €20,000 in fines and/or do a 7 year stretch and probably bankrupt themselves with lawyer fees into the bargain. Oh, and by the way they'd never get a license again. I don't think anyone's going to volunteer for that.

IRLConor

Oh, and on a somewhat similar note, does anyone know if Section 15 of the Offences Against the State Act is still in force?

Grizzly 45

It is still in force.
But not "enforced" much it seems as we can see every Jan down in Limerick when a certain political organisation commerates one of its deceased members,with exactly all of that is naughty in that part of the act.As when a certain drug dealer/freedom fighter was shot dead in Dublin last year and got a exact such like sendoff.:rolleyes::mad:

Technically that same act "could be" used against the shooting community in the fact that "reciving instruction in the use of arms" could cover you being taught how to shoot at paper targets or clay piegons.



It should also be pointed out ,that if one wanted to practise exellent combat simulations and military tactics here with all the state of the art gear, you could simply go and do airsoft and learn all the combat tactics you could need legally.:rolleyes:

Technically said,going for a walk in the fields and taking a shot at pheasents or whatever could be classed as "dynamic shooting".As you are in motion with a loaded gun shooting at targets of opportunity.

Also countries that shall we say are a bit more up on firearms than the PTB here can define exactly what is combat training and a sport,and would have a very good reason to prohibit the sport for genuine fear of disaffected people being trained allow it.Places like Northern Ireland,South Africa and Zimbabwae.
Intrestingly places like Germany and Italy that expressly prohibit "combat style" training allow IPSC and its more "real life" version IDP,yet recognise both as a sport which they are.

After all, you would have most obliging or dumbest criminals who will stand still and allow the SWAT team to come into their hideout and check out the firing angles and positions of themselves and the hostages six times at various different speeds,in 30 mins and then come in and do it in real life.. That's what an IPSC match pre course of fire actually is...VERY realistic combat training..:rolleyes:

Trouble is;and not going to dig up ancient history and arguements here.
The Irish IPSC situation was handled very badly from the word GO!
It should have been started years ago with shotguns and proably .22 semi autos too.Ala the UK where it is still alive and well today.
By the time the handguns were back IPSC could have been established and considerd just another type of shotgun sport and no one would have said Boo about it,and it could have been adapted naturally to pistol and job done.

But that's the Past,and the Past is another country,where they do things differently.We are now stuck with another vauge wishy washy gun law amongst many vauge wishy washy gun laws and as said would need a court case to sort it out.

However,one wonders what happens if the targets themselves were dynamic and the shooter static??Technology is a wonderous thing these days.;) and remote controlled vechicles are getting very professional and programmable and quite capable of carrying a paper target holder.

rowa

Is this a topic we really want to debate online ? After all it is still brought up all the time in pistols appeals cases as to what and what isn't dynamic shooting , wa1500 etc. No point in handing inspector youtube ammunition to throw back at the few lads who are still representing ireland internationally at these sports.

Sparks

IRLConor pretty much nailed it. It's like several other areas in Irish law (zeroing -v- target shooting anyone?) in that it's badly written, ill-conceived, and easliy abusable; but we've destroyed the best means we had to address it so we're stuck with it for now. Nothing's permanent, at least according to buddha, but I can't see this changing in the immediate foreseeable future.

Add it to the list of things that need fixing in the Firearms Act. There should be some space left on page twelve...

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

Is this a topic we really want to debate online ? After all it is still brought up all the time in pistols appeals cases as to what and what isn't dynamic shooting , wa1500 etc. No point in handing inspector youtube ammunition to throw back at the few lads who are still representing ireland internationally at these sports.

All those points were already brought up by Insp Google himself in various DC cases.So there is no great secrets and it is better IMO that prospective plantiffs legal counsels know what might be thrown at them .
As said if the state thinks 1500 is dynamic shooting,why havent they arrested us enmasse??Either it is or isnt a crime.Guess by the non mass arrests they know they havent a legal leg to stand on.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As said if the state thinks 1500 is dynamic shooting,why havent they arrested us enmasse??Either it is or isnt a crime.Guess by the non mass arrests they know they havent a legal leg to stand on.

Honestly Grizz, every single time I hear someone express this kind of opinion, I get exactly the same mental image flashing into my mind...



Seriously, every single time in the last decade or so that people have thought they had a sure thing going with regard to firearms licencing and court cases, it has always bitten us in the arse. Sometimes it's immediate, sometimes it takes a few days or weeks or months, but every time we have "beaten" the government in the courts, we as a community have paid a hefty toll later on.

The only way round this is not to try to force the case, but to work with the government so it becomes their case and let them do the pushing; but we've burnt that option so we're now basicly stuck and all these things that need fixing are going to have to go on the back burner to the job off rebuilding what was broken - and that job can't even get started at the moment, it's a classic little logjam of a problem.

Grizzly 45

Sparks.
I dont know about you ,but I have sat in THREE DC cases this year,and and where this BS opinion has been espoused by the state themselves.
So THEY have the ones been doing the pushing not me or any of us..And they got precisely nowhere with it because of the grounds stated by someone I think abit more qualified in the law than either of us...Either it IS a crime or it is not a crime under the current firearms laws,if it is then we should have all been arrested and charged,[either that or there has been gross delelction of senior AGS members in their duty]
NOT ONE person has been arrested or charged with this kind of shooting as there is NO dynamic component,and despite the state having "strong views" to the contary [and SFA proof to offer of such in court despite being attended by their ballistic expert and numerous CS on various ranges and occasions].

I mean if you are down to arguing your case that "wearing belt holsters" and rapid magazine changes and describe an upright 2''x4" as a" barricade" and all that as "combat training" you are honestly clutching at straws.

Cant disagree with you that there is an almighty list of "Things to fix in the Irish shooting scene." But whenever the politicans,primma donnas,me feiners and empire builders and gold diggers finally get their collective heads around[or have them collectively bashed] the concept that there needs to be a unified front and deal with the internal disputes and fueds behind closed doors we will go precisely nowhere.When that Gordian knot is figured lemme know??

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sparks.
I dont know about you ,but I have sat in THREE DC cases this year,and and where this BS opinion has been espoused by the state themselves.

That kindof underlines my point Grizz. If you could beat the state in court, only one person would ever have had to sit through one of those and that would have settled it...

NOT ONE person has been arrested or charged with this kind of shooting

Nope, not yet.
We're still at the poke-it-with-a-stick stage, not the rocks-fall-on-us-from-a-great-height stage of the cartoon at this point Grizz.

When that Gordian knot is figured lemme know??

Nobody ever managed to untie the Gordian knot y'see, there's the rub.
(Alex cheated).

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

That kindof underlines my point Grizz. If you could beat the state in court, only one person would ever have had to sit through one of those and that would have settled it...

But the thing is;the state is being beat,or better still shirking its responsibility onto the judicary in court by its own legislation[on the DC level that is].And TBH it IMVHO doesnt bother them either as they are obviously trying to win this by financial attrition and generalisations rather than on actual points of law.However until it is moved on a point of law to a higher court and we get a ruling everyone is happy to play in the DC where it is of non record.

Nope, not yet.
We're still at the poke-it-with-a-stick stage, not the rocks-fall-on-us-from-a-great-height stage of the cartoon at this point Grizz.

Ah OK...But I would have thought we were the Road runner who has stopped for the free grub,eaten it ,departed and are now standing behind the Coyote waiting to see what he does when he finishes poking the rock.

Nobody ever managed to untie the Gordian knot y'see, there's the rub.
(Alex cheated).

My point entirely,you would need Alex's rather direct method of knot undoing to sort out the shooting fraternaity and alphabet soup of organisations here.

[BTW do you have a link to the pictogram you did a few years ago of this ?]

IRLConor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

My point entirely,you would need Alex's rather direct method of knot undoing to sort out the shooting fraternaity and alphabet soup of organisations here.

What you're looking for is a small group of people who are trusted by everyone in the alphabet soup to not just avoid fucking them over, but to actively and knowledgeably represent their best interests. And for that small group of people to do it well enough for long enough (several years at least) to actually accomplish something.

You're not asking for much are you?

Jonty

So is Biathlon shooting considered dynamic?

Sparks

Jonty wrote: »

So is Biathlon shooting considered dynamic?

We've never had enough snow around in Ireland for long enough to run a biathlon event to get people arrested and charged in court so we could get a judicial opinion, but since you don't actually ski and shoot simultaneously (you tend to stop moving and get into either the prone or standing position before unslinging the rifle and shooting at static targets), my guess would be no.

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

We've never had enough snow around in Ireland for long enough to run a biathlon event to get people arrested and charged in court so we could get a judicial opinion, but since you don't actually ski and shoot simultaneously (you tend to stop moving and get into either the prone or standing position before unslinging the rifle and shooting at static targets), my guess would be no.

You have made a point that has somehow eluded your law-makers - with NONE of the shooting sports mentioned does the shooter actually move WHILST shooting. In ALL of them the shooter must be standing still whilst shooting - those ARE the rules.

How then can ANY of these disciplines be called 'dynamic' - that is to say, shooting WHILE moving?

In all of them except biathlon the shooter is simply moving from one target to another, although in the case of biathlon, the distances are somewhat greater.

tac

pedroeibar1

Sparks wrote: »

The only way round this is not to try to force the case, but to work with the government so it becomes their case and let them do the pushing; but we've burnt that option so we're now basicly stuck and all these things that need fixing are going to have to go on the back burner to the job off rebuilding what was broken - and that job can't even get started at the moment, it's a classic little logjam of a problem.

I agree with that; a substantial issue is that too many of the vocal gun advocates are overly extreme and intransigent in their views and demands.

What nobody has yet said is the ‘dynamic ban’ exists for (mainly) historic reasons – a means of stopping the training of subversives. A very similar reason (criminality) arises today with possible use of club facilities by ‘unauthorised’ people for firearms training. Years ago the Defence Forces were very aware of efforts by some paramilitaries to join the DF for use as a training ground. Call it political paranoia if you like, but it exists, so live with it.

A very good argument can be made for classifying a firearm as a weapon if it is used on human-shaped targets. Shooters engaged in that activity have nothing in common with a guy walking a bog/field with a shotgun and dog. Most of them (including myself) would not care if the dynamic ban continued and would perceive a campaign for its removal negatively and an inappropriate use of resources.

What is far more important is that the general public continues to perceive all firearms & users negatively – inevitably for incorrect uninformed reasons – and the various ‘shooting/sporting’ bodies have not done and do not do enough to change that public perception. It cannot be done on an individual basis because if, for example, I start writing letters to the press on why as a gun owner I should not be considered a criminal, I will have midnight visits by skangers in balaclavas looking for my guns.

It will take a long time to change public perception on firearms & shooting and I’ve not yet seen appropriate steps being taken by representative bodies to change it.

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

You have made a point that has somehow eluded your law-makers - with NONE of the shooting sports mentioned does the shooter actually move WHILST shooting. In ALL of them the shooter must be standing still whilst shooting - those ARE the rules.
How then can ANY of these disciplines be called 'dynamic' - that is to say, shooting WHILE moving?

C'mon tac. I'm not in favour of the ban and even I see the holes in that one.

IPSC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1kiL9BDVPE

Biathlon:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5mseV1dvXY

Those are just the first short clips that come up in any youtube search, but they show the hole clearly - in one, shooters move from point A to point B with a loaded firearm in hand in a ready to fire configuration; in the other, shooters move from point A to point B with an unloaded firearm slung out of reach. I still think it's a stupid badly-written law, but we need better arguments than that to fix it.

EWQuinn

If you set up like clays and just shoot from stations and dont move with the firearm, and have the targets be plates and geometric shapes, and maybe pop ups and movers. If you are allowed to shoot vermin with a handgun, have the targets vermin shaped. Maybe this is already legal.

Sparks

The shooting vermin with a handgun thing isn't legal, strictly speaking (because you can only get a handgun licence for target shooting on an authorised range -- though if you accidentally shot the range's pet rat because it had crawled up on the berm behind the paper targets, I don't think you'd serve time for it :pac: ) but the rest doesn't sound illegal to me.

However "doesn't sound illegal to me" and a few euros will buy you a cup of coffee in the four courts and not much else, if you follow me...

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

We've never had enough snow around in Ireland for long enough to run a biathlon event to get people arrested and charged in court so we could get a judicial opinion, but since you don't actually ski and shoot simultaneously (you tend to stop moving and get into either the prone or standing position before unslinging the rifle and shooting at static targets), my guess would be no.

Biathalon doesnt necessarily have to be done on skis either.There are versions that could be done by running a certain distance too.
Main point would be..Do you run,ski or whatever with a loaded gun or load at the target??And more importantly what would the paranoid ones in the PTB classify it as exactly??:rolleyes:

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Do you run,ski or whatever with a loaded gun or load at the target?

You load at the target. Watch the video (or any video of biathlon that doesn't have Jeremy Clarkson in a starring role).

And more importantly what would the paranoid ones in the PTB classify it as exactly?

Can't read minds Grizz, but I can give you my best guess -- A clean, well-lit, well-funded sport covered by Eurosport and followed by millions which because of the bright colours and spandex, looks about as threatening as month-old yoghurt.

Look, you're arguing with someone who agrees with you here. I'm just saying that if you want to convince someone who doesn't agree with you, you'll need a more nuanced and developed argument than what's been presented here. Present this anywhere but over a pint and you'd be politely shown out of the room because the grownups had work to do (and if you think that's never happened in the last two or three decades in firearms legislation, you've been sitting in a cave on mars behind a rock with your fingers in your ears singing "lalalacanthearyou").

Grizzly 45

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I agree with that; a substantial issue is that too many of the vocal gun advocates are overly extreme and intransigent in their views and demands.

What nobody has yet said is the ‘dynamic ban’ exists for (mainly) historic reasons – a means of stopping the training of subversives. A very similar reason (criminality) arises today with possible use of club facilities by ‘unauthorised’ people for firearms training. Years ago the Defence Forces were very aware of efforts by some paramilitaries to join the DF for use as a training ground. Call it political paranoia if you like, but it exists, so live with it.

As I have said a gizillion times before,if people want to get this sort of training here in Ireland 100% legally with all the cammo and practise military tactics for a sinister purpose they could open an airsoft training ground and practise "shoot the Taoiseach" scenarios day in and day out and just be considerd "grown ups playing cowboys and indians.":rolleyes:

Sounds silly???Why do most US police depts and the FBI,German police forces and the UK police use airsoft models of their duty guns to practise tactics,movement,weapons fammilisaration and whatever else these days??

[HINT to DOJ/AGS if reading here.:D Lads with the cutbacks and you complaining about not getting to the range but 3 times a year as per the Indo article four weeks ago.
A bunch of airsoft Sigs,HKs and whatever else will be alot cheaper to fire and practise with than the real thing.;)]

Plus most terrs these days head off to Pakistan/Afghanistan for their training and indoctrination,or just read up online how to use domestic cooking ware to make bombs,or use kitchen meat cleavers to butcher their victims on busy city streets.:rolleyes:

IPSC is a world recognised sport,it has got about as much revelance these days to combat shooting as calvary on horseback has to modern warfare.

A very good argument can be made for classifying a firearm as a weapon if it is used on human-shaped targets

.

Looong gone out of IPSC and 1500.If you want to call an odd swirling cammo pattern a human target.[As has been tried here in the DC as well]

Shooters engaged in that activity have nothing in common with a guy walking a bog/field with a shotgun and dog. Most of them (including myself) would not care if the dynamic ban continued and would perceive a campaign for its removal negatively and an inappropriate use of resources.

Forgive me if I sound cynical,but that sounds like the typical "FUNK you I'm alright Jack" attitude that be devills most shooting sports in Ireland and elsewhere??:rolleyes:What makes your sport more morally superior to mine?Or my choice of guns or disipline??
Realise the fact that if mine is gone,yours could be and will be next!The PTB and general public dont give a flying what kind of a gun or shooting you do.They see ALL guns as bad and should be banned whether it is a high cap pistol or a SBBL shotgun,doesnt matter to them.The one thing that is common between all disiplines in Ireland is we are ALL liscened gun owners and that should cut across all divides.We are gunowners first,whatever disipline second.

What is far more important is that the general public continues to perceive all firearms & users negatively – inevitably for incorrect uninformed reasons – and the various ‘shooting/sporting’ bodies have not done and do not do enough to change that public perception

.

100% agree.But as most bods are run on an voulenteer and non funded bar membership fees situation,we dont have the monies for a proper PR campaign.
Plus finding a PR company that would touch it is another days work as well as the message being tried to get over??Even the US NRA struggles all the time with that one and they can throw millions at adverts ,campaigns radio shows,TV channels etc.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Forgive me if I sound cynical,but that sounds like the typical "FUNK you I'm alright Jack" attitude that be devills most shooting sports in Ireland and elsewhere??:rolleyes:What makes your sport more morally superior to mine?Or my choice of guns or disipline??

Just an aside for the record, the next time someone asks "Why can't the FCP proceed without the NARGC on board", that quote above is why.

tac foley

Sparks wrote: »

C'mon tac. I'm not in favour of the ban and even I see the holes in that one.

Those are just the first short clips that come up in any youtube search, but they show the hole clearly - in one, shooters move from point A to point B with a loaded firearm in hand in a ready to fire configuration; in the other, shooters move from point A to point B with an unloaded firearm slung out of reach. I still think it's a stupid badly-written law, but we need better arguments than that to fix it.

Thank you, Sir, for shooting me down. My point was that nobody actually shoots WHILST in motion, as some of the gentlemen of the AGS seem to believe is the case.

tac - biathlete from 1968 to 1990.

Grizzly 45

[QUOTE=Sparks;86919269

Can't read minds Grizz, but I can give you my best guess -- A clean, well-lit, well-funded sport covered by Eurosport and followed by millions which because of the bright colours and spandex, looks about as threatening as month-old yoghurt.[/QUOTE]

Uhmm,that could be said about paintball these days too.Its long gone all nicey nicey .Yet lots of Govt bods freak about it still in Europe because of "its combat training" supposed element.
The Greens in Germany post the Wenneden shooting wanted and still want to ban it along with IPSC.

Look, you're arguing with someone who agrees with you here. I'm just saying that if you want to convince someone who doesn't agree with you, you'll need a more nuanced and developed argument than what's been presented here

.

I'm not arguing with you at all,I'm just stating a simple point that we are living in the most gun unfriendly,paranoid about them state in the EU,next to England and then its a toss up as who is more of the above.:rolleyes:

So suggesting a "new" sport into that kind of mindset possibly will be looked on as some sort of "terrorist,criminal training"as they did with paintball in the 1980s.
After all if the " Govt experts" arent up on modern combat shooting techniques and think two sport arts are repersentative of modern combat training.
It would suggest we are here a] abit behind the times. paranoid about civillian gun ownership [c]not at all open to embracing new ideas [d] all of the above

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Biathalon doesnt necessarily have to be done on skis either.There are versions that could be done by running a certain distance too.
Main point would be..Do you run,ski or whatever with a loaded gun or load at the target??And more importantly what would the paranoid ones in the PTB classify it as exactly??:rolleyes:

In the Nordic countries biathlon in the summer months is often done on roller-blades....or feet.

Most often with air-weapons.

In military biathlon we used to load on reaching the targets, fire your five shots, and leave. Empty.

tac

IRLConor

Folks, the "moving while shooting" or "moving with a loaded firearm" arguments here are irrelevant. The definition (unless they changed it :rolleyes:) is as follows:

In this section “practical or dynamic shooting” means any form of activity in which firearms are used to simulate combat or combat training.”.

So all the prosecution has to say is "<insert type of shooting> simulates combat" and have a jury believe it.

Reality has nothing to do with it.

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I'm not arguing with you at all,I'm just stating a simple point that we are living in the most gun unfriendly,paranoid about them state in the EU,next to England and then its a toss up as who is more of the above.

Bearing in mind that shooters in the UK [the largest-growing area of sport in the entire community] are licensed by person, NOT by gun, you might be surprised to learn that your opinion of the UK & Northern Ireland is based on erroneous/biased hearsay.

Read -

Total licences for firearms - 2011 figures, now roughly 2% below current figures -

All licenses - shotgun and rifled/smoothbore firearms -1,809,653.

All Section 1 [rifled] firearms - 141,775 licenses and 451,131 actual firearms. Section 5 licenses for live-firing handguns in England, Scotland and Wales are not included in these figures as the percentage is very small indeed.

All shotguns - single shot or side-by-side/smoothbore real or replicas thereof - 580,653 licenses and 1,358,522 actual smooth-bore guns.

Northern Ireland alone has over 100,000 licenses, with over 380,000 registered guns. And only in Northern Ireland, there are also almost 3000 handguns licensed to certain members of the community for personal protection, something that does not happen in any other country in the EU, AFAIK.

tac

Gatling

Just to add to the discussion ,coming from airsoft /airsoft skirmishes ,
We can replicate the majority of military scenarios on proper site's from building assaults ,room clearances and so on ,a few years one site had a double decker bus that was used in games ,
But we're not allowed to do ISPC shooting full stop ,which happens to be huge in Europe and Asia and the UK to a degree,
So we can do military replication but can't shoot at cardboard targets while been timed moving from one target zone to another ,
Make sense to anyone

rowa

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

What nobody has yet said is the ‘dynamic ban’ exists for (mainly) historic reasons – a means of stopping the training of subversives.

A very good argument can be made for classifying a firearm as a weapon if it is used on human-shaped targets. Shooters engaged in that activity have nothing in common with a guy walking a bog/field with a shotgun and dog. Most of them (including myself) would not care if the dynamic ban continued and would perceive a campaign for its removal negatively and an inappropriate use of resources.

Pedro, a "dynamic ban" does definitely have a historic reason, obviously the trouble in the north, but it never stopped the training camps, the boat loads of illegal firearms coming into ireland or the 3,000 dead in 25 + years of mayhem. The wannabe "nidge" types who carry out gangland hits don't do much ipsc, olympic style , or any other training i'd imagine, or apply for many pistol licences. Persecuting the law abiding for the misdeeds of criminals is pointless.

Your second point is typical irish, i'm alright jack pull up the ladder. what happens when the ptb want to ban walking around a bog with a shotgun and dog ? You might be glad of support of rifle and pistol shooter then.