Define dynamic shooting?

Grizzly 45

[QUOTE=Gatling;86925187
We can replicate the majority of military scenarios on proper site's from building assaults ,room clearances and so on ,a few years one site had a double decker bus that was used in games ,
But we're not allowed to do ISPC shooting full stop ,which happens to be huge in Europe and Asia and the UK to a degree,[/QUOTE]


BIZZARE!! And only in Ireland Is the only way I can describe that one:eek::rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

Bearing in mind that shooters in the UK [the largest-growing area of sport in the entire community] are licensed by person, NOT by gun, you might be surprised to learn that your opinion of the UK & Northern Ireland is based on erroneous/biased hearsay

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Any chance of getting your handguns in any calibre or semi rifles back in the next century???:):)

Or about as much chance of that as us getting IPSC,reloading, airguns off ticket a reworked large cal pistol ban revoked??
No one is arguing about the pouplarity or growth of the sport in the UK Tac,we are on about who has the more gun unfriendliness/hostility to gun ownership,the ROI or the "British" Isles and of those I'd tip either the Isle of Man or the Channel islands as about the most gun friendliest...NI doesnt allow semi rifles.

And only in Northern Ireland, there are also almost 3000 handguns licensed to certain members of the community for personal protection, something that does not happen in any other country in the EU, AFAIK.

Err nope,you can get a concealed carry permit for self defence purposes in Germany,the Czech republic Swtzerland ,Austria and Italy ASFIK.

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

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Any chance of getting your handguns in any calibre or semi rifles back in the next century???:):)

]Nope, modern handguns only in Northern Ireland, unless you jump through a load of expensive hoops. BUT, we dont have your restricted laws on rifles, or military-looking guns that are 'offensive' to some. No licensing for airguns on the mainland, unless they are over 12ft lbs, so no ridiculous requirement to need a gun license to buy a tin of little lumps of lead.

Or about as much chance of that as us getting IPSC,reloading, airguns off ticket a reworked large cal pistol ban revoked??

No one is arguing about the pouplarity or growth of the sport in the UK Tac,we are on about who has the more gun unfriendliness/hostility to gun ownership,the ROI or the "British" Isles and of those I'd tip either the Isle of Man or the Channel islands as about the most gun friendliest...NI doesnt allow semi rifles.

Neither the Isle of Man nor the Channel Islands are part of the UK - they are Crown Dependencies like Gibraltar, and can, and do, make up their own rules about firerams.

Err nope,you can get a concealed carry permit for self defence purposes in Germany,the Czech republic Swtzerland ,Austria and Italy ASFIK.

Thanks for that - I'm now better informed.

tac

pedroeibar1

rowa wrote: »

Pedro, a "dynamic ban" does definitely have a historic reason, obviously the trouble in the north, but it never stopped the training camps, the boat loads of illegal firearms coming into ireland or the 3,000 dead in 25 + years of mayhem. The wannabe "nidge" types who carry out gangland hits don't do much ipsc, olympic style , or any other training i'd imagine, or apply for many pistol licences. Persecuting the law abiding for the misdeeds of criminals is pointless.

Your second point is typical irish, i'm alright jack pull up the ladder. what happens when the ptb want to ban walking around a bog with a shotgun and dog ? You might be glad of support of rifle and pistol shooter then.

I never said/suggested that a ban on dynamic shooting / shortarms / rifles ever stopped anything. Nor did I say / suggest legally held guns were used in gangland hits. It is well known within the shooting community but not said often enough that almost all crimes are committed with illegally held guns (usually imported with drugs). Equally, it is common knowledge that a certain criminal element has had firearms training in the recent EU accession countries, not to mention those others a decade or so ago taking holidays in North Africa. Those are some of the reasons why there are legacy issues to overcome on the perception of all firearms. That's all. :-)

My personal view (and one I'd suggest held by many gun owners if they bothered to think about it) is that practical shooting (running to positions & firing with pistols at torso sized targets) does not have a role in civilian sports shooting.

What I did write was to outline what I believe to be the perception of ‘officialdom’ and the general public and I see their point, unlike several others posting here. The number of 'practical' pistol shooters is small and will remain so – any campaign to support 'practical' shooting would negatively impact of the vast majority of sporting shooters, detract from the main issues and be a waste of resources. Any campaign to educate the general public (particularly one that gunowners are not criminals) should focus on defined, targeted aims that have a chance of success.

Comments (by others) on the NRA, concealed carry and what is going on elsewhere is at best irrelevant. Assaulting the barricades of bureaucracy in an effort to gain acceptance for practical shooting and have legislation redrafted to remove its ban is a waste of time, effort and funds at a time when there are more important tasks and objectives.

cathalomurchu

If they're trying to stop criminals from practicing military tactics imposing a bizarre law on law abiding gun owners is absurd! The bad guys aren't going to turn around a say 'C'mon now lads, no more of this. Government is putting a stop to it' :P IMO opening that dynamic shooting avenue up would do good to the sport. It will appeal to many new people because maybe football or hurling doesn't suit them.

My personal view (and one I'd suggest held by many gun owners if they bothered to think about it) is that practical shooting (running to positions & firing with pistols at torso sized targets) does not have a role in civilian sports shooting.

I respect your opinion but I don't understand why it doesn't have a role within civilian sports shooting. It seems to fit in quite well in most other countries around the world. We're not going to turn into a bunch of terrorists if we can run around a controlled environment with a legally held firearm, safely. it doesn't have to be a pistol, doesn't have to be torso sized targets... Like saying that a small paper target it head sized...

pedroeibar1

My point is made, your post here reinforces the view of many on those who are Tactical/practical advocates.

Grizzly 45

My personal view (and one I'd suggest held by many gun owners if they bothered to think about it) is that practical shooting (running to positions & firing with pistols at torso sized targets) does not have a role in civilian sports shooting.

Most of the European Union shooting bodies would disagree with you on that point.They have realised long ago that appeasement doesnt work and while it mightnt be your cuppa tae you cant preclude a body just because you dont like it when your numbers are small. And whether you like it or not IPSC is an internationaly recognised sport.Even in countries that have stringent real handgun bans like Japan or Sth Korea.We in" backwards Ireland" have even gone one better and apprently even banned IPSC with airsoft!!!:rolleyes:
So you have to ask yourself if 90% of the World says one thing and Ireland is saying another...Who is right???:rolleyes:

Comments (by others) on the NRA, concealed carry and what is going on elsewhere is at best irrelevant

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Aha...So its" irrelevant" than that the most powerful richest pro gun lobby on the planet who can throw millions at their own TV and online radio stations, advertising and top class hired PR advisors and spin docs and campaign people,not to mind paid members of the US Congress and Senate find it difficult sometimes if not all the time, to counter and persuade the general public of the Western world of your point of gunowners are not criminals???

We ARE in the EU these days,and it is indeed VERY revelant on most things,not just firearms laws what is going on elsewhere,not that Ireland has much say in them anyway,or would be paid the blindest bit of attention if it did.

Assaulting the barricades of bureaucracy in an effort to gain acceptance for practical shooting and have legislation redrafted to remove its ban is a waste of time, effort and funds at a time when there are more important tasks and objectives.

Dont worry yourself about that ever happening..The Irish shooting community thru their main organisations when they werent at each others throats in the DOJ meetings made it quite clear back when they didnt want;
IPSC,in any shape at all...
Reloading,
cowboy action shooting
centrefire pistols for humane dispatch,[or none at all if possible in some cases]
proably semi auto rifles ,and shotguns with high cap mags or uncomfortable and weird stocks and very short barrels.

Got to wonder how or what the DOJ reps at those meets kept straight faces and wonderd what kind of muppetts we have repersenting us.:mad::mad:

And of course anyone who "wanted those things" could please F Off to NI Ireland or the Continent in good Irish solution to an Irish problem tradition.:rolleyes:
Seriously,we are our own worst enemies betimes here.:rolleyes::(

cathalomurchu

Sooo you're saying the majority of people who are in favour of practical shooting are preppers? Maybe so. I'm making the point that we have closed ourselves off from ISPC though and in a sense it's bad for the whole gun community. The government think we're whack job gun toting psychos that strive to be navy seal tacticool. The majority aren't. They just enjoy a different style of shooting. That's all.

Sparks

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

My point is made, your post here reinforces the view of many on those who are Tactical/practical advocates.

That's a wee bit ad hominem really.
Yes, there is a well-known comic stereotype of the mall ninja, but there's also a well-established high-end sports section in the IPSC and IDPA sectors.

Myself, I think of it like blue cheese. I don't want to take a bite out of it myself, its not my thing, but if you want to, it's all yours -- so long as you do it safely (there are always limits - I mean, with the cheese analogy, if you start looking to take a bite out of casa marzu, we will have a problem if we're at the same table).

I think I might have left that analogy run just a bit long there.

Point is, play the ball, not the man...

cathalomurchu

Grizzly, yes as far as I'm aware Airsoft IPSC is banned too. But hang on, that means I'm apparently breaking the law most Sunday mornings? This was my initial point and why I started this thread. The law is so vague it can be interpreted in so many different ways. Almost as vague as the public order act :P

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

They have realised long ago that appeasement doesnt work

I swear to toast, if I had direct access to the swear filter on this site, I'd have added that word to it a long time ago because everyone I've ever met who said they had a problem with "appeasement" turned out not to know either (a) what the word meant; or (b) the facts of the situation they were using it to describe. :mad:

It wasn't me!

MOD: Don't drag in posts made by posters on other fora around Boards. It's bad form and a tactic which suggests you can't support your argument with the material on here.

rowa

Lets face it , practical was banned because of the carry on of one "gentleman" running bodyguard courses in louth and because of ahern's prejudice and personal dislike of firearms. It had zero to do with practical itself. Even in the uk practical shotgun is still a popular sport.

tac foley

Ah, Rowa, we're running 'shortt' of arguments now. ;=)

The facts are there before us and, as has already been pointed out, if the PTB can decide that modern smokeless propellants, contrary to the laws of physics, are actually 'explosives', then they can also decide that ANY form of shooting could well be described as 'military training'.

tac

pedroeibar1

Sparks wrote: »

That's a wee bit ad hominem really.
Yes, there is a well-known comic stereotype of the mall ninja, but there's also a well-established high-end sports section in the IPSC and IDPA sectors.

Myself, I think of it like blue cheese. I don't want to take a bite out of it myself, its not my thing, but if you want to, it's all yours -- so long as you do it safely (there are always limits - I mean, with the cheese analogy, if you start looking to take a bite out of casa marzu, we will have a problem if we're at the same table).

I think I might have left that analogy run just a bit long there.

Point is, play the ball, not the man...

I'd no intention of infringing any charter or being rude to COM but his posts on ' prepping' / firearms are IMO an appropriate reference to the commonly-held perception of 'tactical' shooters - and certainly those of its supporters.
I like your casa marzu analogy, its little worms can jump alarming distances from position to position. Like them, I'm out of here, no point in debating with those posters who hold deeply entrenched views.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

I swear to toast, if I had direct access to the swear filter on this site, I'd have added that word to it a long time ago because everyone I've ever met who said they had a problem with "appeasement" turned out not to know either (a) what the word meant; or (b) the facts of the situation they were using it to describe. :mad:

Speaking from the European context Sparks,not just the hub of the shooting universe which is Ireland.;)

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

Lets face it , practical was banned because of the carry on of one "gentleman" running bodyguard courses in louth and because of ahern's prejudice and personal dislike of firearms. It had zero to do with practical itself. Even in the uk practical shotgun is still a popular sport.

Pretty much part of it,ironic that said "baron of the Short Gym wear" was a resident in Mr Ahernes consituency as well.:rolleyes:

BUT in fairness the advocates of IPSC didnt do themselves any favours either,apprently the demo scared the wits out of the Gardai and DOJ,not so much in the speed shooting or scenarios ,but the fact guns were being fired off unstable platforms off the ground ,nor did certain elements of the Irish shooting world help much with posting all sorts of rumours of PMC's and whatnot being trained in ranges about the place.:rolleyes:
Again we all managed to be our own worst enemies.:(

rowa

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Pretty much part of it,ironic that said "baron of the Short Gym wear" was a resident in Mr Ahernes consituency as well.:rolleyes:

BUT in fairness the advocates of IPSC didnt do themselves any favours either,apprently the demo scared the wits out of the Gardai and DOJ,not so much in the speed shooting or scenarios ,but the fact guns were being fired off unstable platforms off the ground ,nor did certain elements of the Irish shooting world help much with posting all sorts of rumours of PMC's and whatnot being trained in ranges about the place.:rolleyes:
Again we all managed to be our own worst enemies.:(

Yes griz , but ireland has gone very like the uk in that if the ptb see something they don't like they ban rather than reform, nanny statery at its finest.

Grizzly 45

Always was always will be a Nanny state here.In every aspect of life and society.And it wont get any better with the Uber Nanny of the EU starting to infringe more and more.

meathstevie

One point springs to mind in relation to "combat simulation"; by it's very nature combat is two way traffic and target shooting by it's very nature is one way traffic. Any sort of genuine combat simulation with firearms will involve either video walls or blank ammunition / blank firing attachements and good luck to you getting caught setting that one up unless you wear khaki to work.

To the best of my knowledge only airsoft and paintball provide "two way traffic" scenario's in Ireland.

rowa

meathstevie wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge only airsoft and paintball provide "two way traffic" scenario's in Ireland.

yes and are they banned ? No , so why practical/defensive shooting. Why cowboy action shooting ? Its as inoffensive as shooting gets.

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

One point springs to mind in relation to "combat simulation"; by it's very nature combat is two way traffic and target shooting by it's very nature is one way traffic. Any sort of genuine combat simulation with firearms will involve either video walls or blank ammunition / blank firing attachements and good luck to you getting caught setting that one up unless you wear khaki to work.

To the best of my knowledge only airsoft and paintball provide "two way traffic" scenario's in Ireland.

Just the tip of the iceberg of what combat shooting training involves.
Things like "stress fire",drawing your firearm in a crowd situation while being jostled,low light,no light shooting,shooting while wearing a respirator in those conditions,drawing your firearm from shoulder holsters weak and strong handed.Room clearing and team fire positions.Embark,de embark under fire and returning fire from vechicles stationary and moving..Using flash bang grenades and move and cover drills ,firing while covering a hostage/victim.Use of full auto weaponary.

All in all as distant from IPSC as is possible,and the most damning thing that I think says it is a sport and nothing else is.
Many police depts in the US actually prohibit their officers in taking part in IPSC competitions/training as the chance of them mis reading a potential fatal situation is too great and has the possibility of a fatal outcome for officers.

This happened about five times in California in the 1980s/90s when police officers who were IPSC shooters tried to "slap leather" against armed perperators who were pointing guns at them. Starting with your hands up[possibly waiting for the buzzer] in a real life potential shootout is NOT a good idea!!
Even the firearms used for IPSC are about as far removed from "combat firearms" as a NASCAR is from a police squad car or tank.

Sparks

rowa wrote: »

yes and are they banned ?

No, but most paintball markers are strictly speaking restricted short firearms.
Rather illustrates the value of a "safe and harmless" public image, that...

Gatling

Sparks wrote: »

No, but most paintball markers are strictly speaking restricted short firearms.
Rather illustrates the value of a "safe and harmless" public image, that...

But airsoft IPSC is banned though