Football Rankings 2013

harpsman

Gerry91 wrote: »

Not necessarily. 3 of the league semi-finalists turned into AI semi-finalists. The league's importance is underrated for me

The two relegated teams had a championship to forget

I'd be more inclined to use the league as a basis than cliches like Kerry are Kerry, and Kerry turn up on the big day etc

Well last year Cork won the league pulling up. Donegal were dire in league-absolutely hammered by laois and kerry and beaten by 9 points by dublin. Still won the all ireland, beating Kerry and Cork (and Mayo) convincingly.
Obviously the best teams in country are generally in upper echelons of league because theyre the best teams but league form means very little come championship

harpsman

Gerry91 wrote: »

You can't seriously say Kerry are better than mayo based on how both performed against one team on two different occasions. So many variables at play

Firstly you'd need to make sure the "control" Dublin would be constant (basically the Dublin performance is identical on both days) which is impossible. Different days, occasions, weather conditions, flow of the game and opposition will ensure this is an impossibility

By that logic I could say Sligo were a better team than Dublin in 2012 as they gave Mayo an all round tougher game in my opinion

Actually I'll go one better and say that Sligo (who maybe should have beaten Kerry) in 09 were the second best team in the country as they gave them the tightest match all year. It's silly logic with all respect

Tyrone gave Mayo a tougher game this year than Donegal, yet Donegal beat Tyrone.

As I say the best way is to measure the match up between the teams, and only one happened. The earlier poster, understandably I guess, discounted that as meaningless, however we don't have anything else to go on, just opinion from seeing the two all year. IMO Mayo were way ahead based on performances throughout the season. I'd imagine most would agree

Again I dont agree. Personally if kerry had prevailed in semi i would have strongly fancied them in final

Lemlin

blackbelt wrote: »

Surprised that there is no thread on this yet.
So another year done and lets see how the teams would rank.

1.Dublin
2.Mayo
3.Kerry
4.Cork
5.Tyrone
6.Donegal
7.Monaghan
8.Meath
9.Kildare
10.Derry
11.Down
12.Galway
13.Laois
14.Cavan
15.Armagh
16.Westmeath
17.Wexford
18.Louth
19.Limerick
20.Sligo
21.Antrim
22.Offaly
23.Clare
24.Wicklow
25.Tipperary
26.Waterford
27.Longford
28.London
29.Fermanagh
30.Carlow
31.Leitrim
32.New York

Cavan rise to 14.Promotion to Division 2 and scalps against Armagh, Fermanagh and Derry.Martin Dunne and Eugene Keating exceptional this year.

Meath number 8? Above Kildare and six places above a Cavan team who held them to a point in an entire half of football to beat them comprehensively in their own ground in the league?

Meath only won two games in the Championship - Wicklow and Wexford - and played in Division 3 in the League. I think you have them way too high because of your Leinster bias.

Oh and you mentioned Dunne and Keating being exceptional, Cavan's best player by far was Cian Mackey who won GAA player of the month in July. Dunne, Mackey and Killian Clarke have been nominated for All Stars. Keating was good but can do better and bigger things are expected.

Gerry91

keane2097 wrote: »

There's not much of a difference between the other four in Munster and the other five in Connacht.

Galway nearly always raise their game for Mayo though. Over the years form would completely go out the window when these met and it'd nearly be a lottery. The rivalry itself seemed to bring out the best in Galway

Mayo have just reached a new level now Galway can't match, that doesn't mean that Galway won't come good again in the near future and challenge them

They're a far better team than the 4 in Munster despite making heavy weather of it against them this year.

Fr Tod Umptious

I will not do it now cos I am on the phone but it may be a good idea to do a 2014 ranking thread now and see where people believe their teams and the other teams sit for next year

Gerry91

harpsman wrote: »

Again I dont agree. Personally if kerry had prevailed in semi i would have strongly fancied them in final

Fair enough that's your opinion

Gerry91

harpsman wrote: »

I dont agree. I wouldnt put any of the mayo forwards in the top 15 in the country whereas id probably put all of dublins 6 starters. If the sides were to meet next week id take dublin by at least 4 points

1. Agreed

2. All 6 forwards? KK and Mannion ahead of Gooch/McFadden?

harpsman

Gerry91 wrote: »

1. Agreed

2. All 6 forwards? KK and Mannion ahead of Gooch/McFadden?

Well i didnt actually say that. I just said id probably have em in top 15 forwards in country. Was at leinster final and thought those 2 were very goodand have huge potential. Having said that its obviously debatable. Was really just elaborating on why i think theres a gap between dublin and mayo

bo-sco

Gerry91 wrote: »

1. Agreed

2. All 6 forwards? KK and Mannion ahead of Gooch/McFadden?

He said all 6 Dublin forwards would be in the top 15 forwards in the country. He didn't mention who else would be in that top 15.

How can you interpret from what he said that he thinks CK and Mannion are ahead of Gooch/McFadden when he didn't mention any of them specifically?

Gerry91

bo-sco wrote: »

He said all 6 Dublin forwards would be in the top 15 forwards in the country. He didn't mention who else would be in that top 15.

How can you interpret from what he said that he thinks CK and Mannion are ahead of Gooch/McFadden when he didn't mention any of them specifically?

Thought he meant in an Irish xv like starting team, relax

Gerry91

harpsman wrote: »

Well i didnt actually say that. I just said id probably have em in top 15 forwards in country. Was at leinster final and thought those 2 were very goodand have huge potential. Having said that its obviously debatable. Was really just elaborating on why i think theres a gap between dublin and mayo

Oh right fair enough, misread it

corny

Gerry91 wrote: »

You can't seriously say Kerry are better than mayo based on how both performed against one team on two different occasions. So many variables at play

Firstly you'd need to make sure the "control" Dublin would be constant (basically the Dublin performance is identical on both days) which is impossible. Different days, occasions, weather conditions, flow of the game and opposition will ensure this is an impossibility

By that logic I could say Sligo were a better team than Dublin in 2012 as they gave Mayo an all round tougher game in my opinion

Actually I'll go one better and say that Sligo (who maybe should have beaten Kerry) in 09 were the second best team in the country as they gave them the tightest match all year. It's silly logic with all respect

Tyrone gave Mayo a tougher game this year than Donegal, yet Donegal beat Tyrone.

As I say the best way is to measure the match up between the teams, and only one happened. The earlier poster, understandably I guess, discounted that as meaningless, however we don't have anything else to go on, just opinion from seeing the two all year. IMO Mayo were way ahead based on performances throughout the season. I'd imagine most would agree

Thanks but I don't think i did say that. I think i established the gap between Dublin and Mayo is bigger than the gap between Dublin and Kerry. You drew the conclusion.

However, since you brought it up and the function of this thread is to establish a loose order.... i'd be fairly confident Kerry would beat Mayo in the latter stages of the championship should both sides put their best foot forward.

Mayo really only had two competitive games this year. They lost one fairly decisively and the other, against a solid if unspectacular team, highlighted the glaring weakness in the side (not scoring for an age in the first half- forwards contributing little). I'm not convinced by them anyway.

Stoner

Gerry91 wrote: »

Oh right fair enough, misread it

Just because you misread it doesn't make it correct

Relative to Dublin there is no way Dublin have 6 of the top 15 forwards in any order and Mayo have zero in any order.

I can't see 15 better forwards than say for example Moran.

Stoner

If you remember before the Dublin kerry game some of the Mayo lads wanted Dublin as Kerry have such a good record against them.

I don't know about all this talk about there being gaps etc.

Dublin vs Mayo was a one point game, the reason it wasn't more was because Dublin couldn't score more and Mayo didn't let them.
Had Mayo stuck a goal in the last five minutes and won, we'd all have to listen to how poor and selfish the Dublin forwards are etc.

Sure it did feel tighter against Kerry, but the score board didn't reflect that feeling.

I'd say if any two of the three were to play next week in a decider it could go anyway. I could easily see kerry beating Mayo or Dublin. Or Mayo winning. What I'm saying is it would be close, to close to talk about gaps. There have been retirements, rows and psychological damage but my hypothetical situation refers to a time before that took place.

Agree that Cavan wrt to meath is a bit harsh on the Cavan boys alright, don't agree it indicates a leinster bias though, that's a bit deep.

Tom Joad

blackbelt wrote: »

Surprised that there is no thread on this yet.
So another year done and lets see how the teams would rank.

1.Dublin
2.Mayo
3.Kerry
4.Cork
5.Tyrone
6.Donegal
7.Monaghan
8.Meath
9.Kildare
10.Derry
11.Down
12.Galway
13.Laois
14.Cavan
15.Armagh
16.Westmeath
17.Wexford
18.Louth
19.Limerick
20.Sligo
21.Antrim
22.Offaly
23.Clare
24.Wicklow
25.Tipperary
26.Waterford
27.Longford
28.London
29.Fermanagh
30.Carlow
31.Leitrim
32.New York

I would have Kerry at number 2 with Mayo at 3.

Also think Cavan are a bit too low at 14 -would definitely have them ahead of Derry (notoriously inconsistent and on the way down), would also have them ahead of Laois and Meath.

Poor old Roscommon - they do deserve to be on the list somewhere.

Think Sligo are too high and London too low if we are basing this on 2013.

iDave

Lemlin wrote: »

Meath number 8? Above Kildare and six places above a Cavan team who held them to a point in an entire half of football to beat them comprehensively in their own ground in the league?

Meath only won two games in the Championship - Wicklow and Wexford - and played in Division 3 in the League. I think you have them way too high because of your Leinster bias.

Oh and you mentioned Dunne and Keating being exceptional, Cavan's best player by far was Cian Mackey who won GAA player of the month in July. Dunne, Mackey and Killian Clarke have been nominated for All Stars. Keating was good but can do better and bigger things are expected.

Yes the same Meath team that finished higher than Cavan in the league despite not turning up for the first half of it and got promoted out of a division Cavan have been stuck in for years at the first attempt. The Meath team that could of beaten Dublin or Tyrone as opposed to Cavan who struggled against a knackered London team and walked over by a Kerry team in second gear.
Cavan are really becoming the new Kildare with this over-confidence based on nothing

keane2097

Gerry91 wrote: »

Galway nearly always raise their game for Mayo though. Over the years form would completely go out the window when these met and it'd nearly be a lottery. The rivalry itself seemed to bring out the best in Galway

Mayo have just reached a new level now Galway can't match, that doesn't mean that Galway won't come good again in the near future and challenge them

They're a far better team than the 4 in Munster despite making heavy weather of it against them this year.

I don't agree that they are at all. The worst team in Munster ought to have eaten them in the Chanpionship this year and it was no surprise that it was close. There's no earthly way they are far better than Limerick or Tipp.

Howard Juneau

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

How far Kerry got in 2013 is no surprise

They were always likely to play Cork in the Munster final and win that because it was always going to be on in Killarney
This meant that they would play a qualifier in the QF, which could have been anyone, in this case it was Cavan
And then they were due to come up against Dublin in the SF which is where they would get beaten, and they did

They will have a sightly tougher time in 2014 as they will have to play Cork in Cork
But in 2014 they will be no more contenders than 2013 so a SF is about a far as they will get.

Going the back door route seems to suit Kerry a little more. 2 matches in Munster & then a 6 week gap until a qualifier isn't ideal at all.
Kerry need more matches, more intensity & then you see a better team.

largepants

iDave wrote: »

Yes the same Meath team that finished higher than Cavan in the league despite not turning up for the first half of it and got promoted out of a division Cavan have been stuck in for years at the first attempt. The Meath team that could of beaten Dublin or Tyrone as opposed to Cavan who struggled against a knackered London team and walked over by a Kerry team in second gear.
Cavan are really becoming the new Kildare with this over-confidence based on nothing

Could have beaten Dublin/Tyrone. Yea right.

Meath also seem to have some sort of over confidence at the moment too? All its based on is a dodgy Leinster Final win in 2010.

Kildare have three Leinster titles in 2013. Thats not to be sneezed at.

Tom Joad

iDave wrote: »

Yes the same Meath team that finished higher than Cavan in the league despite not turning up for the first half of it and got promoted out of a division Cavan have been stuck in for years at the first attempt. The Meath team that could of beaten Dublin or Tyrone as opposed to Cavan who struggled against a knackered London team and walked over by a Kerry team in second gear.
Cavan are really becoming the new Kildare with this over-confidence based on nothing

I know your reply wasn't too me but think it's a tad OTT(actually just wanted an excuse to post this picture :pac:).

I think personally its reasonable that Cavan would be ahead off Meath in the 2013 rankings and certainly ahead off Laois and Derry.

While Meath deservedly got a lot of plaudits for coming as close as they did to Dublin and Tyrone - they still lost - that's a fact. In 1992, 93, and 94 we were within a kick off a ball from beating that years all-ireland winners - so were we the second ranked team in the country that year? - were we hell.

Cavan beat Armagh and Derry got to the quarters and were a kick off the ball from beating Monaghan (if we use your criteria for ranking teams) and should have been well ahead off Monaghan in that game - we gifted them a goal when they were in real trouble remember.

Re the league - yes we didn't get promoted but remember two things 1. the number of under 21s playing for Cavan and 2. the management took a decision for the long term to keep the under 21s from playing in the league so don't think our league position was a good reflection off our 2013.

I dont think you could accuse any Cavan fan of over confidence - we are excited about the future based on the talent coming through but I don't see any ridiculous claims been made about winning AIs or the likes.

keeponhurling

deccurley wrote: »

Didn't change around much, just thought that denying that we exist was a little harsh on Roscommon. .

Harsh but fair ?

premierstone

Gerry91 wrote: »

Gee I wish! Just beacuse we annihilated all round us in Connacht this year doesn't mean we're guaranteed a last 12 place all the time now. Sure last year we only beat Sligo by a point or two. Many tipped us to lose to Galway in the first round this year.

As recently as 2010 we didn't make it

Now that Munster is seeded Kerry and Cork are nailed on, when seriously was the last time Kerry lost to waterford/Clare/Lk/Tipp?

Very true, but the arguement was been made in realtion to years gone past before the seeded draw was re-introduced and under that system Kerry were no more guaranteed last 12 that Mayo or Dublin IMO.

Lemlin

iDave wrote: »

Yes the same Meath team that finished higher than Cavan in the league despite not turning up for the first half of it and got promoted out of a division Cavan have been stuck in for years at the first attempt. The Meath team that could of beaten Dublin or Tyrone as opposed to Cavan who struggled against a knackered London team and walked over by a Kerry team in second gear.
Cavan are really becoming the new Kildare with this over-confidence based on nothing

Cavan beat Monaghan and Meath. The U21s were then released to the U21 panel and the panel was left without players like Jack Brady, Fergal Flanagan, Killian Clarke, Jason McLoughlin and Conor Gilsenen. All of whom were championship starters. Not to mention the panel was left woefully short because the likes of Chris Conroy, Turloc Mooney, Paul O'Connor and others were unavailable.

In regards to Meath, I was at every Meath game this Summer bar the Wicklow game. Meath could not have beaten Dublin. As I said on the Meath thread at the time, Dublin ran away with the game in the last 15 minutes because the Meath team had nothing on the bench. Dublin were also nowhere near the form they displayed a couple of weeks earlier against Kildare.

In regards to Cavan's performances, as pointed out by others, you've forgotten that we beat Division 2 Armagh, Division 3 Fermanagh (x 2), ran Monaghan to within a point (a Monaghan team I might add that beat Meath twice quite easily in the League, including the League final after Meath had "showed up" as you put it), beat a promoted to Division one Derry on their own patch and beat London.

Meath, on the other hand, beat a relegated to Division 4 Wicklow and Division 2 Wexford. That's the sum of your efforts over the Summer. No matter what you think about running Tyrone close. Meath still lost the game.

I don't think its over confidence to point out the results. My problem isn't particularly with Cavan even being number 14 in the rankings. It's more with Meath being number 8 tbh.

And I wouldn't say confidence in our new team is built on "nothing". While I don't think we are over confident, our lads did damn well this year and are built on the back of three Ulster U21 winning teams and a minor Ulster winning team. On top of that, we've players that have won Sigerson Cups, Railway Cups, Ranafast Cups and All Ireland Vocational School titles. We also had 4 Ulster All Star winners and have 3 players nominated for All Stars.

All with a team which, on average, has only three starters in each championship game over the age of 25.

Wolf Club

harpsman wrote: »

I dont agree. I wouldnt put any of the mayo forwards in the top 15 in the country whereas id probably put all of dublins 6 starters. If the sides were to meet next week id take dublin by at least 4 points

I might be biased but I'd have C'OC above Mannion and Kilkenny at the minute, his open play still needs improvement but the fact that he was the top scorer in the Championship despite only playing in 4 games would suggest he's certainly in the top 15 forwards in Ireland.

Slattsy

I'd love to know where Dublin are ranked in Freddie's list.

premierstone

Slattsy wrote: »

I'd love to know where Dublin are ranked in Freddie's list.

In between London and New York I'd imagine, with all the rest of them foreigners

seligehgit

ProudDUB wrote: »

I'm not so sure about Cork in 2014. My spies in the Cork camp tell me that one of Counihan's selectors (Cuthbert I think) is getting the Cork job. As he is from the same "old school" style of managers as Counihan is, they are not expecting much change in the way that the team trains and in game day tactics. You get left behind very rapidly these days, if you can not adapt to changes in the game.



Well, my excuse is that my toes and other extremities (such as my brain) only began to warm up some time in mid April. What's yours?

I was wondering who was in line for the Cork job,very disappointed with them this year.They've so much potential and have underachieved considering the pool of talent at their disposal.The change of management could reinvigorate them if the right team is picked,it was criminal that the likes of Paddy Kelly was on the bench.They always seemed to finish the game with their best team last year,perplexing.
Wondering if it will be a case of rebuilding for the Kingdom next year,hoping it is from a purely selfish point of view!

seligehgit

ProudDUB wrote: »

I'd put Tyrone higher up the list, certainly above Cork. Cork did eff all this year. Don't think their winning leagues in 2011 or 2012 is remotely relevant to 2013, or what will happen in 2014.

Tyrone made it to this years league final, losing to Dublin by only a couple of points. They are also the only team to beat Dublin all year. Tyrone made it to the AI semifinals this year & they really put it up to Mayo in the first half of their semifinal until they ran out of gas. And they did that after having endured all 4 arduous rounds of the qualifiers. I think they could have gone further, if they didn't have such a tough road to the knock out stages.

Think Tyrone would have beaten Cork but definitely not the Kingdom.

seligehgit

klairondavis wrote: »

I can't agree. Dublin have more scope to improve than Mayo. They have a younger team and there is more depth to their panel. Kerry are about equal with Mayo at the moment. Mayo have a better back line and midfield but Kerry have far more individual talent in their forward line who are still on top of their game as they showed in the semi final. Despite what the scorelines might say, I think they pushed Dublin a lot harder than Mayo did.

Agreed re Dublin having more scope for improvement vis a vis Mayo,there's little between Mayo and Kerry but I think Kerry would come out marginally on top,forwards win games.

Syferus

seligehgit wrote: »

Think Tyrone would have beaten Cork but definitely not the Kingdom.

If they played like they did against Dublin sure but on the evidence of every other performance by Kerry since the 2011 AI final Tyrone would have ground them down. Kerry had one close-to complete performance in two years; the semi-final was a last swig by a great team. They won't be AI contenders next season, whatever about Mayo, Cork or Tyrone.

ProudDUB

Two years ago, after their AI final loss to us, everyone was writing Kerry off, saying that they were past it, too old etc etc. Yet, with just one minute of regular time left in this years semi final, Kerry were a point ahead. They were within a hairs breath of yet another All Ireland final. If they got to it, they would have eaten Mayo for breakfast imo.

I certainly wouldn't be writing them off any time soon. You don't easily replace someone with the skill and guile of Tomas O'Se, but his legs have not been up to it for a couple of seasons now. Who knows what a fresh, 21 year old pair of legs may do in his position? We got the rub of the green this year, who knows what can happen next year, especially if them shower of cute hoors are the ones to get it?

aveytare

Syferus wrote: »

If they played like they did against Dublin sure but on the evidence of every other performance by Kerry since the 2011 AI final Tyrone would have ground them down. Kerry had one close-to complete performance in two years; the semi-final was a last swig by a great team. They won't be AI contenders next season, whatever about Mayo, Cork or Tyrone.

Really? I'm a Tyrone fan but in think Kerry have been stronger than us in the last few years. Maybe this year it was closer but in 2011/2012 we were way behind.

Syferus

ProudDUB wrote: »

Two years ago, after their AI final loss to us, everyone was writing Kerry off, saying that they were past it, too old etc etc. Yet, with just one minute of regular time left in this years semi final, Kerry were a point ahead. They were within a hairs breath of yet another All Ireland final. If they got to it, they would have eaten Mayo for breakfast imo.

I certainly wouldn't be writing them off any time soon. You don't easily replace someone with the skill and guile of Tomas O'Se, but his legs have not been up to it for a couple of seasons now. Who knows what a fresh, 21 year old pair of legs may do in his position? We got the rub of the green this year, who knows what can happen next year, especially if them shower of cute hoors are the ones to get it?

The fact remains the predictions that were made last October, that if Kerry beat Cork in the Munster final they'd run out of steam against Dublin in an AISF, proved very true. Whether it was the final five minutes or the final fifteen, they'd didn't have enough on the bench or in the legs to finish the game.

If one good performance - and a losing one at that - is enough to prove entirely founded predictions of Kerry's demise wrong there's a whole hell of a lot of great teams out there. Of all the counties you don't need to treat with kid gloves it's the 36-time All-Ireland champions. They're in rebuilding now and it's time people face that fact and stop regurgitating the 'sure they're Kerry, like' cliches.

Stoner

aveytare wrote: »

Really? I'm a Tyrone fan but in think Kerry have been stronger than us in the last few years. Maybe this year it was closer but in 2011/2012 we were way behind.

o

I agree, Tyrone are better now than they were in 2011 /2012, I'm not completely sure why but they are a tighter team a nice half back line and a potential player of the year in midfield. Lacking up front a bit though,

With a full panel they ate strong looking, thought they were unlucky with the squad this year though, O'Neill looks off the pace a bit too.

Stoner

Syferus wrote: »

The fact remains the predictions that were made last October, that if Kerry beat Cork in the Munster final they'd run out of steam against Dublin in an AISF, proved very true. Whether it was the final five minutes or the final fifteen, they'd didn't have enough on the bench or in the legs to finish the game.

If one good performance - and a losing one at that - is enough to prove entirely founded predictions of Kerry's demise wrong there's a whole hell of a lot of great teams out there. Of all the counties you don't need to treat with kid gloves it's the 36-time All-Ireland champions. They're in rebuilding now and it's time people face that fact and stop regurgitating the 'sure they're Kerry, like' cliches.

I don't look at it like that. Yes it was a big game for Kerry versus Dublin, but those lads had the results of the league game in Killarney up on their wall all year. They showed this year that they still have a fire in their bellies a gritty spirit, forget all those old saying about kerry are this or that, much the same as the pessimistic bs on the Mayo forum about AI records and curses.

The team is the team you have now. Kerry still have great players and they still have a hunger.

I honestly think that their attitude not legs would get them past Mayo next year. Mayo didn't run out of legs in the final they ran out of spirit IMHO, that's what annoying some Mayo supporters.

corny

Syferus wrote: »

The fact remains the predictions that were made last October, that if Kerry beat Cork in the Munster final they'd run out of steam against Dublin in an AISF, proved very true. Whether it was the final five minutes or the final fifteen, they'd didn't have enough on the bench or in the legs to finish the game.

Thats just not true. On 60 minutes they were 19-18 down when Dublin brought on their substitutes. 3 minutes later they were 20-19 up. On 69 minutes Declan O' Sullivan had a chance that grazed the post to take the lead. From the kickout, had Maher not not jumped, Marc O' Shea would have taken clean possession and who knows what would have happened. Point is very small margins got Dublin over the line that day not a great disparity in fitness or talent of the bench. Complete oversimplification if you think otherwise.

Lets not forget this was against the best team in the country who, unlike in the final, played pretty well. Its not a cliche at all, Kerry are still a very capable side.

Gerry91

Well Kerry were expected to beat a tactically inept Cork this year, with home advantage, and they were then going to face a back door team in the quarters. Luckily for them they got Cavan, any of the other 3 would have had a great chance against them. They didn't even play well at all in that match. They were always likely to play and lose to Dublin in a semi and that's what happened. They didn't exceed any expectations at all they did as most expected

They play Cork away next year and will play a provincial winner in quarter if they lose that. This is with their main men (with some amount of mileage on the clock) a year older and their best back gone. They don't enough players coming through, theyre in a rebuilding period whether people like it or not. It happens

As Ive said I'd use league and championship form in 2013 as a much better guide as to how I think they'll do a year later than cliches like "you can't write off Kerry" etc etc

Gerry91

corny wrote: »

Thats just not true. On 60 minutes they were 19-18 down when Dublin brought on their substitutes. 3 minutes later they were 20-19 up. On 69 minutes Declan O' Sullivan had a chance that grazed the post to take the lead. From the kickout, had Maher not not jumped, Marc O' Shea would have taken clean possession and who knows what would have happened. Point is very small margins got Dublin over the line that day not a great disparity in fitness or talent of the bench. Complete oversimplification if you think otherwise.

Lets not forget this was against the best team in the country who, unlike in the final, played pretty well. Its not a cliche at all, Kerry are still a very capable side.

You're using one game here as a basis. They'd a brutal league, nearly collpased against a Cork team with zero tactical awareness and who can't get the best out of their players and who barely beat Galway who lost by 17 to Mayo and stumbled over the line against Waterford, were shaky against a Cavan team who were by a mile the worst quarter finalist and should have lost to Westmeath last year and were outclassed by Donegal

Of course they could have won v Dublin but there was still a final to play. I don't believe this Kerry team has a few top performances in them in a row.

As Syferus said above it's one complete performance in two years

Fr Tod Umptious

corny wrote: »

Thats just not true. On 60 minutes they were 19-18 down when Dublin brought on their substitutes. 3 minutes later they were 20-19 up. On 69 minutes Declan O' Sullivan had a chance that grazed the post to take the lead. From the kickout, had Maher not not jumped, Marc O' Shea would have taken clean possession and who knows what would have happened. Point is very small margins got Dublin over the line that day not a great disparity in fitness or talent of the bench. Complete oversimplification if you think otherwise.

Lets not forget this was against the best team in the country who, unlike in the final, played pretty well. Its not a cliche at all, Kerry are still a very capable side.

The fact that Kerry progressed further in 2013 than in 2012 was mainly down to the draw
The draw meant that they would play Cork in the Munster Final in Killarney, rather than a semi in Cork as was the case in 2012

Kerry have a serious problem with a lack of depth, they have noting off the bench and that was proven v Dublin
Moran has only played one game in about three years
Sherwood had never played in Croke Park
Donaghey is a one trick pony that has had one good game in 7 years

Yet that is who they sprung from the bench when the game was on the line

No matter how poor things were in 2013 they will be worse in 2014
They have ageing players all over the field and as we saw in the 2013 league no one coming through
Plus they will have to go to Cork for the Munster final, which will not help

And it's not just me saying it, a lot of folk in Kerry during 2013 have said that they may do well in 2013 but 2014 is not going to be pretty

Gerry91

ProudDUB wrote: »

Two years ago, after their AI final loss to us, everyone was writing Kerry off, saying that they were past it, too old etc etc. Yet, with just one minute of regular time left in this years semi final, Kerry were a point ahead. They were within a hairs breath of yet another All Ireland final. If they got to it, they would have eaten Mayo for breakfast imo.

I certainly wouldn't be writing them off any time soon. You don't easily replace someone with the skill and guile of Tomas O'Se, but his legs have not been up to it for a couple of seasons now. Who knows what a fresh, 21 year old pair of legs may do in his position? We got the rub of the green this year, who knows what can happen next year, especially if them shower of cute hoors are the ones to get it?

Bolded 1- they haven't exactly been proven wrong though have they? They haven't made an AI final since or even a league one

Bolded 2- Based on one performance? Mayo were far more impressive v Donegal than Kerry were v Dublin and they didn't turn up in the final what is to say Kerry wouldn't have performed? Let me guess because Kerry are Kerry

So people think Kerry are an AI contender because they pushed Dublin this year yet Mayo beat the reigning champs by 17 points and actually made back to back finals and they're less a contender?

Gerry91

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

No matter how poor things were in 2013 they will be worse in 2014
They have ageing players all over the field and as we saw in the 2013 league no one coming through
Plus they will have to go to Cork for the Munster final, which will not help

This 100%

Had Mayo been outclassed in a quarter final and stuttered past Westmeath in 2012 and lost to Dublin in 2013 beating Cavan in a quarter you can guarantee no-one would give them a hope in 2014.

As I say whenever I ask people why they have Kerry as such a contender the best they come out with is Kerry are Kerry, class is permanent and similar lazy cliches rather than recent form

Things change, sure Tyrone are in a rebuilding period and everyone accepts that why can't they do the same with kerry?

And yes Kerry have a serious lack of depth, people say Donaghy is a great sub to have yet he is completely finished he didn't even touch the ball when he came on v Dublin

seligehgit

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The fact that Kerry progressed further in 2013 than in 2012 was mainly down to the draw
The draw meant that they would play Cork in the Munster Final in Killarney, rather than a semi in Cork as was the case in 2012

Kerry have a serious problem with a lack of depth, they have noting off the bench and that was proven v Dublin
Moran has only played one game in about three years
Sherwood had never played in Croke Park
Donaghey is a one trick pony that has had one good game in 7 years

Yet that is who they sprung from the bench when the game was on the line

No matter how poor things were in 2013 they will be worse in 2014
They have ageing players all over the field and as we saw in the 2013 league no one coming through
Plus they will have to go to Cork for the Munster final, which will not help

And it's not just me saying it, a lot of folk in Kerry during 2013 have said that they may do well in 2013 but 2014 is not going to be pretty

Hoping you're right Father,I am hoping that Kerry will be in the midst of a significant rebuilding process,speculating that more players may follow Tomas o Se.The draw is less favourable,although when did Kerry ever fear Cork in Parc ui Chaoimh?
Dublin game did appear to be the last roll of the dice for a great Kerry team.As for Mayo v Kerry this year,arguments to be made on both sides but although it would have been a 50:50 game I believe the superior Kerry firepower might have swung it,galls me to say it as a Mayo man!Definitely believe too much was read into our victory over Donegal.

Fr Tod Umptious

seligehgit wrote: »

Hoping you're right Father,I am hoping that Kerry will be in the midst of a significant rebuilding process,speculating that more players may follow Tomas o Se.The draw is less favourable,although when did Kerry ever fear Cork in Parc ui Chaoimh?
Dublin game did appear to be the last roll of the dice for a great Kerry team.As for Mayo v Kerry this year,arguments to be made on both sides but although it would have been a 50:50 game I believe the superior Kerry firepower might have swung it,galls me to say it as a Mayo man!Definitely believe too much was read into our victory over Donegal.

There is no hope about it, it's the honest truth
They have been on the down swing since 2009 and it's not something that will be fixed in a year.

As an example their record in knock-out games in Croke Park since their last All Ireland win is as follows
Won 3 (Limerick, Mayo Cavan)
Lost 5 (Down, Dublin x2, Donegal, Mayo)

Gerry91

seligehgit wrote: »

Hoping you're right Father,I am hoping that Kerry will be in the midst of a significant rebuilding process,speculating that more players may follow Tomas o Se.The draw is less favourable,although when did Kerry ever fear Cork in Parc ui Chaoimh?
Dublin game did appear to be the last roll of the dice for a great Kerry team.As for Mayo v Kerry this year,arguments to be made on both sides but although it would have been a 50:50 game I believe the superior Kerry firepower might have swung it,galls me to say it as a Mayo man!Definitely believe too much was read into our victory over Donegal.

Not at all, we beat the reigning All Ireland champions by 17 points (in reality it should have been even north of 20) with a ruthless performance I haven't seen since Kerry annihilated Dublin in 2009

Before the game everyone kept going on about how Mayo not being tested could be a hindrance. It really wasn't and as I've said it's the best performance I've ever seen in Croke Park bar the aforementioned Kerry demolition job against Dublin

From a Mayo POV I'd honestly worry about Dublin, Cork, Donegal and Tyrone more than Kerry in 2014. Given we stand to face the Munster champs in a semi if we get there I'm hoping Kerry beat Cork. Then again they can hardly get as lucky with the quarter final draw again

EDIT- put it this way had Kerry beat Donegal by 17 can you imagine the fawning that would have followed?

Gerry91

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

There is no hope about it, it's the honest truth
They have been on the down swing since 2009 and it's not something that will be fixed in a year.

As an example their record in knock-out games in Croke Park since their last All Ireland win is as follows
Won 3 (Limerick, Mayo Cavan)
Lost 5 (Down, Dublin x2, Donegal, Mayo)

And 2011 Mayo weren't a patch on what they are now, they stuttered through Connacht and were rebuilding at the time after the infamous debacle in Pearse Park only a year earlier

I had to laugh when people near me in Galway kept going on about Mayo's potential final opponents after the Tyrone game and said they feared Kerry more from a Mayo pov simply based on the fact "they're Kerry" and beat Mayo convincingly in finals 7 and 9 years earlier, with a team infinitely better than the current ageing one

seligehgit

Gerry91 wrote: »

Not at all, we beat the reigning All Ireland champions by 17 points (in reality it should have been even north of 20) with a ruthless performance I haven't seen since Kerry annihilated Dublin in 2009

Before the game everyone kept going on about how Mayo not being tested could be a hindrance. It really wasn't and as I've said it's the best performance I've ever seen in Croke Park bar the aforementioned Kerry demolition job against Dublin

From a Mayo POV I'd honestly worry about Dublin, Cork, Donegal and Tyrone more than Kerry in 2014. Given we stand to face the Munster champs in a semi if we get there I'm hoping Kerry beat Cork. Then again they can hardly get as lucky with the quarter final draw again

EDIT- put it this way had Kerry beat Donegal by 17 can you imagine the fawning that would have followed?

Valid point Gerry.

corny

Why do people feel the need to unnecessarily complicate things. League, draw, form lines, last throw of the dice, etc.

For the last three years Kerry have lost to the best team of that year. By a point in 2011 when they could easily have won, by 2 points in 2012 when they played poorly and by 7 points in 2013 when they were level after 69 mins.

They may very well lose to the best side next year and the year after i don't know but jesus how can anyone dismiss them based on that? The naysayers have no case as far as i'm concerned because every year they get within a hairs breath of victory. You could say they still lose but my contention is not they're the best side just they're a very obvious threat.

Until i see them brushed aside in a game after August i refuse to believe they're a spent force and i can't understand how anyone doesn't agree thats prudent.

seligehgit

corny wrote: »

Why do people feel the need to unnecessarily complicate things. League, draw, form lines, last throw of the dice, etc.

For the last three years Kerry have lost to the best team of that year. By a point in 2011 when they could easily have won, by 2 points in 2012 when they played poorly and by 7 points in 2013 when they were level after 69 mins.

They may very well lose to the best side next year and the year after i don't know but jesus how can anyone dismiss them based on that? The naysayers have no case as far as i'm concerned because every year they get within a hairs breath of victory. You could say they still lose but my contention is not they're the best side just they're a very obvious threat.

Until i see them brushed aside in a game after August i refuse to believe they're a spent force and i can't understand how anyone doesn't agree thats prudent.

Fair enough Corny but even the Kingdom may need time to rebuild if the retirements continue,players like Tomas O' Se don't just grow on trees even in the Kingdom.

MaroonAndGreen

1. Dublin
2. Mayo
3. Donegal (there gona be up there again next year)
4. Tyrone
5. Kerry (maybe this year was the last hurrah)
6. Cork
7. Monaghan
8. Kildare (only 2 points off Tyrone this year)

Thats my top 8

corny

seligehgit wrote: »

Fair enough Corny but even the Kingdom may need time to rebuild if the retirements continue,players like Tomas O' Se don't just grow on trees even in the Kingdom.

That is true and eventually the Gooch, Marc O Shea, Dec and Darren O' Sullivan will bow to time but that doesn't have to be next year. We've listening to this changing of the guard business since they lost to Down in 2010. Three years later they're still a worthy match for every team in the country.