Football Rankings 2013

Gerry91

They haven't won an AI in 4 years and Fr Tod made the point since then they've won 3 games in Croke Park, vs Limerick, Cavan and a young and inexerienced Mayo.

They've lost any game that they had a chance of losing if that makes sense. They were never going to lose any of the above 3.

And suddenly 5 years later they can become a contender with an ageing squad which lacks depth and enough quality young players coming through?? No chance

They mightn't even have made Croke Park in 2012 they were somehow fortunate to overcome Westmeath in a back door game

In 2013 they'd a poor league, beat Cork fair enough and lost to Dublin that's the extent of it, no point reading anything into facile matches like Waterford, Tipperary and Cavan

People just cite the Dublin match (one match) as why they think they can still win an AI next year, completely ignoring their poor showings the past few years

seligehgit

Syferus wrote: »

The fact remains the predictions that were made last October, that if Kerry beat Cork in the Munster final they'd run out of steam against Dublin in an AISF, proved very true. Whether it was the final five minutes or the final fifteen, they'd didn't have enough on the bench or in the legs to finish the game.

If one good performance - and a losing one at that - is enough to prove entirely founded predictions of Kerry's demise wrong there's a whole hell of a lot of great teams out there. Of all the counties you don't need to treat with kid gloves it's the 36-time All-Ireland champions. They're in rebuilding now and it's time people face that fact and stop regurgitating the 'sure they're Kerry, like' cliches.

Yeah losing All Ireland semi finals is not deemed a success in the Kingdom,irrespective of whither they lost to the eventual All Ireland winners.They might have defeated Mayo,but I remain sceptical that they'd have run riot on Mayo.They may have to rely on a few favourable results elsewhere to regain Sam next year.

ProudDUB

Gerry91 wrote: »

Bolded 1- they haven't exactly been proven wrong though have they? They haven't made an AI final since or even a league one

Bolded 2- Based on one performance? Mayo were far more impressive v Donegal than Kerry were v Dublin and they didn't turn up in the final what is to say Kerry wouldn't have performed? Let me guess because Kerry are Kerry

So people think Kerry are an AI contender because they pushed Dublin this year yet Mayo beat the reigning champs by 17 points and actually made back to back finals and they're less a contender?

Response to bolded one: They have been proved wrong to a point. Dublin scored their winning goal because Maher and Marc O'Se made a crucial defensive error in letting MDMA get his mitts on the ball, that he then laid off to Kevin Mc, who no Kerry player was picking up. Connolly then scored the vital point (that made us equalizer proof) thanks to a brilliant kick out from Cluxton. I'm not saying that Dublin were not the fitter team on the day, but Kerry's age and fitness were not the main reason why Dublin got their vital scores. Bottom line is, they were written off two years ago. Two years later, they were within a hairs breath of making another AI final that in my humble opinion, they would have gone on to win. You can't ask for more than that can you?

Response 2: Yes, Kerry are Kerry. What else can you say about them? I don't think that Mayo would have beaten them if Kerry had made it to the final, mainly because I don't think for a second that Kerrys main men would have gone MIA in an All Ireland final the way that the likes of AOS did. That is what makes Kerry Kerry.

Tom Joad

corny wrote: »

Why do people feel the need to unnecessarily complicate things. League, draw, form lines, last throw of the dice, etc.

For the last three years Kerry have lost to the best team of that year. By a point in 2011 when they could easily have won, by 2 points in 2012 when they played poorly and by 7 points in 2013 when they were level after 69 mins.

They may very well lose to the best side next year and the year after i don't know but jesus how can anyone dismiss them based on that? The naysayers have no case as far as i'm concerned because every year they get within a hairs breath of victory. You could say they still lose but my contention is not they're the best side just they're a very obvious threat.

Until i see them brushed aside in a game after August i refuse to believe they're a spent force and i can't understand how anyone doesn't agree thats prudent.

Great post - sums it up well - will probably get destroyed for this but feck it sometimes the obvious needs to be said - the only posts complicating things is from Mayo posters who want us all to agree that they are the second best team in the country and want us to write off Kerry to justify that.

Gerry91

Tom Joad wrote: »

Great post - sums it up well - will probably get destroyed for this but feck it sometimes the obvious needs to be said - the only posts complicating things is from Mayo posters who want us all to agree that they are the second best team in the country and want us to write off Kerry to justify that.

Syferus isn't from Mayo last I checked?

I don't care where people place Mayo- second or tenth- the only important thing is winning Sam and we've failed to do that in the last two years that's all that matters, sadly for us

People can rate Kerry as high as they want it's their opinion, I'm just giving my thoughts on why I don't think they're an All Ireland contender for next year

klairondavis

Kerry's demise is overstated. The reason for this is because they were so good over the last 15 years or so and now they're not in the final on an almost annual basis. Just because they are no longer at that level, which few teams have ever been at over the game's history, does not mean they are no longer contenders or can be dismissed out of hand.

True enough they have some special players who are entering the latter stages of their career but if you examine their team closely there is still a solid outfit there. Marc Ó Sé, Declan O'Sullivan and Colm Cooper are among the best players of any generation. They were as good as ever this year and could easily have a few more years in them. Not only are they still three of the best players in the country, they have the experience and big match temperament that other counties do not possess. Donnchadh Walsh is around the same age and is a criminally underrated player nationally.

The rest of their team is actually quite young. Darran O'Sullivan is only 27 despite having been around since 2005. Anthony Maher and Johnny Buckley would be one of the better midfield pairings out there and are both in their mid twenties. Killian Young who they missed against Dublin, also in his mid twenties. Some promising younger players like O'Donoghue, Fitzgerald, Crowley, Griffin, Enright, Lyne. They're never going to be like for like replacements for Darragh, Tomás, Tom O'Sullivan etc but no county could find ready made replacements for players like that.

Just because they have gone back over the last few years does not mean they are out of contention. The only county I would confidently back against Kerry would be Dublin.

seligehgit

klairondavis wrote: »

Kerry's demise is overstated. The reason for this is because they were so good over the last 15 years or so and now they're not in the final on an almost annual basis. Just because they are no longer at that level, which few teams have ever been at over the game's history, does not mean they are no longer contenders or can be dismissed out of hand.

True enough they have some special players who are entering the latter stages of their career but if you examine their team closely there is still a solid outfit there. Marc Ó Sé, Declan O'Sullivan and Colm Cooper are among the best players of any generation. They were as good as ever this year and could easily have a few more years in them. Not only are they still three of the best players in the country, they have the experience and big match temperament that other counties do not possess. Donnchadh Walsh is around the same age and is a criminally underrated player nationally.

The rest of their team is actually quite young. Darran O'Sullivan is only 27 despite having been around since 2005. Anthony Maher and Johnny Buckley would be one of the better midfield pairings out there and are both in their mid twenties. Killian Young who they missed against Dublin, also in his mid twenties. Some promising younger players like O'Donoghue, Fitzgerald, Crowley, Griffin, Enright, Lyne. They're never going to be like for like replacements for Darragh, Tomás, Tom O'Sullivan etc but no county could find ready made replacements for players like that.

Just because they have gone back over the last few years does not mean they are out of contention. The only county I would confidently back against Kerry would be Dublin.

Agree with everything you say but I would not back any county confidently against them,not even Dublin.

harpsman

Gerry91 wrote: »

And 2011 Mayo weren't a patch on what they are now, they stuttered through Connacht and were rebuilding at the time after the infamous debacle in Pearse Park only a year earlier

I had to laugh when people near me in Galway kept going on about Mayo's potential final opponents after the Tyrone game and said they feared Kerry more from a Mayo pov simply based on the fact "they're Kerry" and beat Mayo convincingly in finals 7 and 9 years earlier, with a team infinitely better than the current ageing one

Big talk!!
Let me elaborate on kerry thing for you-1)they have gooch,odonoghue, darran and declan o sullivan and donncha walsh-thats 5 forwards ranging from very good to outstanding.how many of the mayo forwards would you put in that category. plus pelnty of other damn good players.
2)they have a proven travk record of producing very skillful intelligent footballers-not many people had heard of james o donoghue this time ast year.
when all these people you seem to meet who say kerry are kerry thats what they mean

Stoner

harpsman wrote: »

Big talk!!
Let me elaborate on kerry thing for you-1)they have gooch,odonoghue, darran and declan o sullivan and donncha walsh-thats 5 forwards ranging from very good to outstanding.how many of the mayo forwards would you put in that category. plus pelnty of other damn good players.
2)they have a proven travk record of producing very skillful intelligent footballers-not many people had heard of james o donoghue this time ast year.
when all these people you seem to meet who say kerry are kerry thats what they mean

You left out Donaghy,


If we are consistently looking at kerry on the basis of one game why are we continually drawn to Mayo beating Donegal.

Also if the stats tell us anything it is that Donegal were going to to be beaten this year, just like Dublin in 2012 and Cork in 2011. Teams can't seem to string two championships together. Donegal had already been lamped by monaghan before playing Mayo.

All I can say from being at all the Dublin games this year is that Mayo were not hands down the best team we played.

It's tight at the top three.
The right man in for Cork would see them up there too

VIDEO: Check out Colm Cooper’s brilliant brace of goals for Dr Crokes today (via TheJournal.ie) http://thescore.thejournal.ie/colm-cooper-dr-crokes-legion-1126949-Oct2013/

manofwisdom

corny wrote: »

Thats just not true. On 60 minutes they were 19-18 down when Dublin brought on their substitutes. 3 minutes later they were 20-19 up. On 69 minutes Declan O' Sullivan had a chance that grazed the post to take the lead. From the kickout, had Maher not not jumped, Marc O' Shea would have taken clean possession and who knows what would have happened. Point is very small margins got Dublin over the line that day not a great disparity in fitness or talent of the bench. Complete oversimplification if you think otherwise.

Lets not forget this was against the best team in the country who, unlike in the final, played pretty well. Its not a cliche at all, Kerry are still a very capable side.

Well said good post and why Syferus is still running with his theory that Kerry ran out of steam is beyond belief.

Gerry91

Stoner wrote: »

You left out Donaghy,

The same guy who was dropped for the Dublin game and came on and failed to win any of the long ball that was played into him?? :eek:

He's past it, the rest of the forwards are very good though (although Declan didn't have the greatest of years by his standards), but they don't have enough in defence for me and these great forwards will all be a year older next year, plenty of mileage on the clock

We shall see, we shall see

Gerry91

Stoner wrote: »

You left out Donaghy,


If we are consistently looking at kerry on the basis of one game why are we continually drawn to Mayo beating Donegal.

Also if the stats tell us anything it is that Donegal were going to to be beaten this year, just like Dublin in 2012 and Cork in 2011. Teams can't seem to string two championships together. Donegal had already been lamped by monaghan before playing Mayo.

All I can say from being at all the Dublin games this year is that Mayo were not hands down the best team we played.

It's tight at the top three.
The right man in for Cork would see them up there too.

Yeah how often do the reigning champs lose by 17?

Beating donegal wasn't a big deal at all, doing it by almost 20 points (late goal) was though. Sure Monaghan only beat them by about 3 and they "lamped" them according to you, how would you describe what Mayo did to them ?

They made an AI final with a score difference of +68 points, it was hardly one good performance

They made a final in 2012 too lest we forget

seligehgit

Stoner wrote: »

You left out Donaghy,


If we are consistently looking at kerry on the basis of one game why are we continually drawn to Mayo beating Donegal.

Also if the stats tell us anything it is that Donegal were going to to be beaten this year, just like Dublin in 2012 and Cork in 2011. Teams can't seem to string two championships together. Donegal had already been lamped by monaghan before playing Mayo.

All I can say from being at all the Dublin games this year is that Mayo were not hands down the best team we played.

It's tight at the top three.
The right man in for Cork would see them up there too

VIDEO: Check out Colm Cooper’s brilliant brace of goals for Dr Crokes today (via TheJournal.ie) http://thescore.thejournal.ie/colm-cooper-dr-crokes-legion-1126949-Oct2013/

Hoping you are right Stoner.:D It is incredibly hard to win back to back All Irelands.It is tight at the top but Dublin will quite justifiably be favourites to win at this stage a nearly unprecedented two in a row.That would be some achievement in the modern era.

Gerry91

Go ahead and bookmark this and come back next September, I'll be fully prepared to eat humble pie should Kerry somehow win Sam no problem at all

I (and many others) said this time last year I expected them to get no further than a semi in 2013 as they were likely to face Dublin and that's exactly what transpired, 2014 will be even tougher, as they're a year older and have to travel to Cork (minus Counihan- they can only improve) rather than enjoy home advantage in the provincial decider

Stoner

Gerry91 wrote: »

Go ahead and bookmark this and come back next September, I'll be fully prepared to eat humble pie should Kerry somehow win Sam no problem at all

I (and many others) said this time last year I expected them to get no further than a semi in 2013 as they were likely to face Dublin and that's exactly what transpired, 2014 will be even tougher, as they're a year older and have to travel to Cork (minus Counihan- they can only improve) rather than enjoy home advantage in the provincial decider

I don't think anyone is saying kerry are the best team out there,
We are recognising that Kerry could have won against Dublin and that it would be a close call between Mayo and Kerry.

The idea that Kerry might beat Mayo seems to be an issue. I don't see why it should be at all.

seligehgit

Stoner wrote: »

I don't think anyone is saying kerry are the best team out there,
We are recognising that Kerry could have won against Dublin and that it would be a close call between Mayo and Kerry.

The idea that Kerry might beat Mayo seems to be an issue. I don't see why it should be at all.

Don't really think that the idea that Kerry might beat Mayo is at issue at all,personally think it would be a strong possibility.What is at issue is that it would be foregone conclusion,an emphatic victory for the Kingdom,do not buy that.

Stoner

seligehgit wrote: »

Hoping you are right Stoner.:D It is incredibly hard to win back to back All Irelands.It is tight at the top but Dublin will quite justifiably be favourites to win at this stage a nearly unprecedented two in a row.That would be some achievement in the modern era.

Just remember all the Donegal lads last year, they thought that their team was immune to this, then they thought they didn't need to be in division one, then they ignored the poor record of teams that get relegated. They they got destroyed, then they were analiated.
There was mad stuff posted here about how the Donegal management had a team that defied all that went before them, even though apart from Ross Wherity they brought nobody decent through, their squad was invincible.

That'll be us next year.

Stoner

seligehgit wrote: »

Hoping you are right Stoner.:D It is incredibly hard to win back to back All Irelands.It is tight at the top but Dublin will quite justifiably be favourites to win at this stage a nearly unprecedented two in a row.That would be some achievement in the modern era.

Just remember all the Donegal lads last year, they thought that their team was immune to this, then they thought they didn't need to be in division one, then they ignored the poor record of teams that get relegated. They they got destroyed, then they were analiated.
There was mad stuff posted here about how the Donegal management had a team that defied all that went before them, even though apart from Ross Wherity they brought nobody decent through, their squad was invincible.

That'll be us next year.

Gerry91

Stoner wrote: »

Just remember all the Donegal lads last year, they thought that their team was immune to this, then they thought they didn't need to be in division one, then they ignored the poor record of teams that get relegated. They they got destroyed, then they were analiated.
There was mad stuff posted here about how the Donegal management had a team that defied all that went before them, even though apart from Ross Wherity they brought nobody decent through, their squad was invincible.

That'll be us next year.

Ye'll be sound

Donegal's lack of depth hit them big time this year, if ye acquire any injuries/lads aren't "hungry" enough, ye've plenty of options in reserve.

Alan Brogan will be a bench option you'd imagine and Nolan could come back in, not to mention a few current under 21s getting league time, and a few off the 2012 team perhaps

seligehgit

Stoner wrote: »

You left out Donaghy,


If we are consistently looking at kerry on the basis of one game why are we continually drawn to Mayo beating Donegal.

Also if the stats tell us anything it is that Donegal were going to to be beaten this year, just like Dublin in 2012 and Cork in 2011. Teams can't seem to string two championships together. Donegal had already been lamped by monaghan before playing Mayo.

All I can say from being at all the Dublin games this year is that Mayo were not hands down the best team we played.

It's tight at the top three.
The right man in for Cork would see them up there too

VIDEO: Check out Colm Cooper’s brilliant brace of goals for Dr Crokes today (via TheJournal.ie) http://thescore.thejournal.ie/colm-cooper-dr-crokes-legion-1126949-Oct2013/

God can we retire off the Gooch anytime soon!Without equal in the modern game.

Syferus

seligehgit wrote: »

God can we retire off the Gooch anytime soon!Without equal in the modern game.

Jamie Clarke is every bit as mercurial but he only gets (or indeed got now that Osin is gone) the support he needs at club level and not county level. Gooch is the greatest forward I've ever seen but he isn't so far ahead of others that he's without parallels. Plenty of things he can't do that others can and vice versa.

Dr. Crokes look like the favourites for the Andy Merrigan this coming season, like Brigids last year losing the AISF seems to have stoked a fire underneath a team that's in danger of never fulfilling its potential.

corny wrote: »

Thats just not true. On 60 minutes they were 19-18 down when Dublin brought on their substitutes. 3 minutes later they were 20-19 up. On 69 minutes Declan O' Sullivan had a chance that grazed the post to take the lead. From the kickout, had Maher not not jumped, Marc O' Shea would have taken clean possession and who knows what would have happened. Point is very small margins got Dublin over the line that day not a great disparity in fitness or talent of the bench. Complete oversimplification if you think otherwise.

Lets not forget this was against the best team in the country who, unlike in the final, played pretty well. Its not a cliche at all, Kerry are still a very capable side.

Kerry's defence was out on its feet in the final 8-10 minutes. They worked it up the field for a few points and that continued the economical play that typified them on a day when Dublin had more possession, particularly in the final quarter. You could see Dublin overwhelming the Kerry backs, beating them to most 50:50 ball and finding acres of room inside with pace that Kerry were really starting to struggle with. Fitzmaurice saw it and tried everything to stem the slide, going as far as to send out an Aidan O'Mahony who had been on ice for one reason or the other for quite some time previous to his appearance in the AISF.

Make no mistake, it was a great game of football but to say that because it was level at 69 minutes meant Kerry weren't fading fast is a simplistic reading of the match in the extreme. It remains important that it has all the hall-marks of a once-off performance and one not likely to be replicated on a consistent basis next season. It was many of the older players who drove the team against Dublin too and they've already lost one of those men for next season with Tomas' retirement. You just have to look at the course of the last two years to see that Kerry are at a crossroads and it's going to take at least a year or two before they're ready to challenge for an AI again.

Kerry are a D1 side and still top 6-7 even with the expected raft of retirements/replacements. That doesn't make them genuine AI contenders, though, and that's entirely the topic at hand.

Gerry91

Stoner wrote: »

You left out Donaghy,


If we are consistently looking at kerry on the basis of one game why are we continually drawn to Mayo beating Donegal.

Also if the stats tell us anything it is that Donegal were going to to be beaten this year, just like Dublin in 2012 and Cork in 2011. Teams can't seem to string two championships together. Donegal had already been lamped by monaghan before playing Mayo.

All I can say from being at all the Dublin games this year is that Mayo were not hands down the best team we played.

It's tight at the top three.
The right man in for Cork would see them up there too

VIDEO: Check out Colm Cooper’s brilliant brace of goals for Dr Crokes today (via TheJournal.ie) http://thescore.thejournal.ie/colm-cooper-dr-crokes-legion-1126949-Oct2013/

What a goal. Best footballer I've seen anyway