Primetime Report on Fluoride in Water - bad for formula feed babies?

M007

I don't want to scare anyone but I was watching Prime Time on RTE last night and they had a feature on Fluoride in the irish water system and protential issues with the use of such water for formula feed babies?

Did anyone else have concerns watching it?

I think I will look into getting a fluoride filter for the house - it appears that the jug filters aren't able to combat flouride but you need to treat it by reverse osmosis - has anyone else installed such a filter or is thinking about doing same as a result of the feature on prime time last night?

pwurple

Flouride is a mineral. Breastmilk also contains it.

Might be cheaper to just buy some water for the few months if you are worried about it rather than buying the latest reverse osmosis gizmo.

liliq

pwurple wrote: »

Flouride is a mineral. Breastmilk also contains it.

Might be cheaper to just buy some water for the few months if you are worried about it rather than buying the latest reverse osmosis gizmo.

The amount of flouride in tap water and breast milk is so vastly different- breast milk has around 0.0006ppm and tap water has 0.6ppm at the lower end of the scale. That 1,000 times more!
As far as I can remember, something like 0.2ppm and above is considered toxic!

There is an issue with salt in bottled water (I'm assuming that what you mean when you suggest buying water), it is quite dangerous for babies formula to be made with bottled water in Ireland.

gctest50

pwurple wrote: »

rather than buying the latest reverse osmosis gizmo.

RO is around for years ffs

Hannibal Smith

liliq wrote: »

The amount of flouride in tap water and breast milk is so vastly different- breast milk has around 0.0006ppm and tap water has 0.6ppm at the lower end of the scale. That 1,000 times more!
As far as I can remember, something like 0.2ppm and above is considered toxic!

There is an issue with salt in bottled water (I'm assuming that what you mean when you suggest buying water), it is quite dangerous for babies formula to be made with bottled water in Ireland.

Sodium content varies depending on the brand of bottled water...Ballygowan used to be the lowest of them all not sure if it still is.

pwurple

liliq wrote: »

The amount of flouride in tap water and breast milk is so vastly different- breast milk has around 0.0006ppm and tap water has 0.6ppm at the lower end of the scale. That 1,000 times more!
As far as I can remember, something like 0.2ppm and above is considered toxic!

There is an issue with salt in bottled water (I'm assuming that what you mean when you suggest buying water), it is quite dangerous for babies formula to be made with bottled water in Ireland.

The amount of flouride in breastmilk varies from person to person.

I'd be more worried about fecal contamination or the levels of chlorine in my water to be honest, than something which has decades of research showing it to be beneficial. Toothpaste has far far higher levels of flouride minerals and I don't see anyone jumping up and down trying to avoid that.

You can buy water suitable for babies bottles.

Conspiracy forum has a very long thread on flouride already.
That's over that way ->
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056973983

iguana

The American Dental Association has released a number of very clear statements that fluoridated water should not be used for making formula as when young babies are exposed to it, it causes tooth damage in the form of dental fluorosis. Their guidelines are also to never use fluoridated toothpaste in children under 2.

The ADA are otherwise in favour of water fluoridation, so their statement has as much to do with conspiracy theories as peaches.

sari

pwurple wrote: »

Flouride is a mineral. Breastmilk also contains it.

Might be cheaper to just buy some water for the few months if you are worried about it rather than buying the latest reverse osmosis gizmo.

Fluoride which accurs naturally is vastly different to the fluoride which is added to out water supply.
What is added to the water is called fluorosilic acid, this is not the same as naturally occurring fluoride. http://hazmap.nlm.nih.gov/category-details?id=1408&table=copytblagents
Fluorosilic acid is a by product of the chemical and more specifically the chemical fertiliser industry.
Guidelines on safe levels of consumption are based on adults, we do not have a safe level for babies. There is also no way to know exactly how much 1 person or baby is absorbing every day as fluoride is in water, food, toothpaste etc. It is also absorbed through the skin while washing.
http://cof-cof.ca/hydrofluorosilicic-acid-origins/

M007

pwurple wrote: »

The amount of flouride in breastmilk varies from person to person.

I'd be more worried about fecal contamination or the levels of chlorine in my water to be honest, than something which has decades of research showing it to be beneficial. Toothpaste has far far higher levels of flouride minerals and I don't see anyone jumping up and down trying to avoid that.

You can buy water suitable for babies bottles.

Conspiracy forum has a very long thread on flouride already.
That's over that way ->
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056973983

What water is suitable for babies bottles - have ready conflicting info on most!

pwurple

M007 wrote: »

What water is suitable for babies bottles - have ready conflicting info on most!

There's a little image on the water bottle label on whether it's ok for babies or not. You see it more abroad where they don't drink the tap water at all (and the flouride is put in their food instead). Those big gallon drums of it would be the ones to go for. Just make sure you still boil it etc. It's still not sterile.

Just don't get a mineral water (too salty) or a fizzy one.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I had formula milk made with Irish tap water and had my teeth brushed with fluorodated tooth paste, as did most people on here I'd say. I still have all my teeth and they don't glow in the dark. This anti fluoride malark is very tiresome.

pwurple

sari wrote: »

Fluoride which accurs naturally is vastly different to the fluoride which is added to out water supply.

Flouride salts break into their respective ions in water. Source makes no difference when it ionizes. Good olde chemistry.

Water has been flouridated here since 1957, and the population's life expectancy has increased over that time, not decreased.

Anyway, I'll say no more. Flouride now is like what candida was in the 70's. Knickers in twists all over the shop. Bandwagon ahoy.

Hannibal Smith

M007 wrote: »

What water is suitable for babies bottles - have ready conflicting info on most!

If you look at the label on the bottle you'll see it gives a sodium content. To be safe for babies the sodium content has to be below a certain level. I think its 20 or something. ..but Google it and you'll find the exact number. We had to use to when we were abroad.

Akrasia

Mild dental fluorosis actually makes teeth stronger but there is some slight discolouration that is usually un-noticable (mostly invisible to the naked eye)

The main risk of fluorosis is through children swallowing toothpaste or mouth wash.

The biggest danger is if your 2 year old child gets a hold of a tube of toothpaste and starts eating it.

If you want to avoid fluorosis in your children, keep your toothpaste high and out of reach of children.

The risk of fluorosis disappears entirely once your teeth are formed and have 'erupted' so by the time all your adult teeth are in, you can eat as much toothpaste as you like (not really, you probably shouldn't eat toothpaste)

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Surely nobody knows the exact safe levels of sodium, flouride etc. for babies and children as this would imply that someone somewhere is testing babies with increasing doses of sodium and flouride. I'd have my doubts about that getting ethical approval.

Das Kitty

Another watch out of bottled water and sodium is that we boil the water making the sodium content marginally higher. I think it's advised that you only boil water once, regardless of its origin.

As far as I'm concerned, I know of two cases of babies in hospital from high salt levels in bottled water (happened during a crypto outbreak) and none of cases of flourosis.

Akrasia

I just googled sodium toxicity in babies and I came across the horrible story about the little 3 month old baby who died after his parents gave him adult food which contained too much salt.

The story blamed ready brek but ready brek list's its ingredients as less than .1g of salt per 30g serving, and the baby apparently had 9 grams of salt in his body.
I don't know how they could have fed a 3 month old 2700 grams of ready brek...

The story also mentioned that they had given the baby mashed potato and gravy. I think this was probably the real culprit.

We gave our babies ready brek when they were about 6 months old at the recommendation of the public health nurse (but we didn't start weaning our children until they were 5 months old and we made our own baby food out of steamed veg without any added salt (a bazillion times cheaper than those jars)

sari

Akrasia wrote: »

The main risk of fluorosis is through children swallowing toothpaste or mouth wash.

The biggest danger is if your 2 year old child gets a hold of a tube of toothpaste and starts eating it.

If you want to avoid fluorosis in your children, keep your toothpaste high and out of reach of children.

Fluorosis is not the only risk of ingesting toothpaste. There is a reason you are told to contact poison control if a child swallows to much, because it is very dangerous http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002745.htm

jma

Fact of the matter is that water fluoridation is unethical, takes away our freedom of choice, and it's obviously very controversial. So, we're all better off without it, and those that are concerned about their teeth have lots of other options (fluoride tablets, flouride concentrated toothpaste, fluoridated mouthwash, to name a few). Apart from the health and ethical concerns, water flouridation costs the state (i.e. the tax payer) €4.8m per year.

My own view is that it's very difficult to say whether it's toxic or not. Toxicity is all about dose and solubility. Once flouride is added to public drinking water, it becomes impossible to control the dose that an individual is subjected to. If anything, I wouldn't be at all concerned about acute toxicity, but rather chronic toxicity.

iguana

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I had formula milk made with Irish tap water and had my teeth brushed with fluorodated tooth paste, as did most people on here I'd say. I still have all my teeth and they don't glow in the dark. This anti fluoride malark is very tiresome.

Well I was breastfed and thanks to a fluoride allergy can't use fluoridated toothpastes or mouthwashes (and need to use a ro filter) yet I've teeth so perfect I'm 34 and still have a milk tooth. I've been to the dentist once since I was 12 yet I've no signs of gum disease and never had toothache nor cavities. The only teeth I ever had pulled were 3 milk teeth when I was 12 as they were too healthy to fall out and the dentist wanted to leave the space free for the new teeth to come up. Obviously fluoride doesn't help your teeth at all.

Or maybe there is a HUGE difference between science and anecdote. :cool:

pwurple

Iguana, your deciduous teeth not falling out hasn't much to do with them being healthy or not. They don't rot out of the heads of children normally! It is healthy deciduous teeth that the tooth fairy takes away from under pillows.

Genetics do play a huge role, so of course you get anacdotes both ways. I know my own parents and my husbands parents all have their own teeth now at their age, which would have unusual enough to see a few generations ago.

I wonder are denture makers dwindling?

On the ethics if it, I think it is ethical to provide something which improves the health of the general population. There is a broader argument about the finances if it, and whether it is worth the cost to provide millions of gallons of drinking quality water to houses for people to flush down the toilet, wash their car with, etc. maybe not.

sari

"pwurple wrote:

On the ethics if it, I think it is ethical to provide something which improves the health of the general population. There is a broader argument about the finances if it, and whether it is worth the cost to provide millions of gallons of drinking quality water to houses for people to flush down the toilet, wash their car with, etc. maybe not.

What?? You really think its ethical to medicate people without consent? That's crazy. Most people in Ireland probably don't even know that it's been added to the water.
There are many other ways to get fluoride if that's what you want.

seamus

Das Kitty wrote: »

Another watch out of bottled water and sodium is that we boil the water making the sodium content marginally higher. I think it's advised that you only boil water once, regardless of its origin.

Thank you! This is totally unrelated to fluorosis, but my wife has been insistent from the start that the water used for bottles is only boiled once, but couldn't say why except that's what she was told
Now it makes sense.

sari

Boiling water also increases the fluoride concentration.

pwurple

sari wrote: »

What?? You really think its ethical to medicate people without consent? That's crazy.

Crazy is a little strong wouldn't you say? I would also enforce compulsary vaccination, having spent a lot of time seeing what immuno-suppressed kids go through when others don't bother with it.

sari

Sorry yes was a little bit harsh, I apologise.
I guess I just think it is morally wrong to force any kind of medication onto anybody.

MrCreosote

sari wrote: »

Sorry yes was a little bit harsh, I apologise.
I guess I just think it is morally wrong to force any kind of medication onto anybody.

Nothing is being "forced" on anyone. All that is done is making it an opt out rather than an opt in choice. If you don't want fluoridated water, then there are easy ways of avoiding it.

sari

Ok so I want to opt out. How do I easily avoid fluoride in Ireland?

jma

MrCreosote wrote: »

Nothing is being "forced" on anyone. All that is done is making it an opt out rather than an opt in choice. If you don't want fluoridated water, then there are easy ways of avoiding it.

That's just completely false. For starters, we all need water to survive. Secondly, bottled water is not very well regulated, unfortunately - so we can never be too sure what's in it. Least of all, fluoride, since there doesn't seem to be any regulations that require companies to inform consumers about fluoride concentrations. Thirdly, fluoride is not just in the tapwater; it's also in the food we eat, the beverages we drink, and it's absorbed by our skin when we take a shower or have a bath.

It should be the other way around - if you want fluoride, and if you actually want to ingest it, you take a fluoride tablet.

Another thing you might be forgetting is that a lot of people are not informed about flouride and certainly wouldn't be aware that it is added to their drinking water. There is a bit more awareness of it now, but it's only recent enough that the issue has been getting more coverage.

pwurple

To opt out, get your water off the mains water grid. Bottled, your own well or rainwater gathering system, drink milk or something else, etc. etc etc. It's not rocket science here guys.

Drinking quality water provided to wash our hair in and flush our poop with is a pure first world luxury. One they don't have all over the world. If it's still not good enough for you, you can do what all those other billions of people do, and source it for yourself. You'll be delighted to hear that those of us who do still want it will be paying for it shortly, so it won't be money for nothing when you start paying for your custom solution.

sari

Get our water off the mains?? So if I want to opt out of consuming fluoride I need to totally change my life. We live in a small housing estate so it would not be possible to have our own well.
We rent, so it is neither practical or affordable for us to fit a filter, we would have to fit a whole new system to filter the water which comes from every tap and shower in the house. I don't even know if that's possible but if it is the process would not be easy and I imagine very expensive. Not something you would do living in a rented house.
At the moment we have a gravity fed filter which we need to fill and wait for it to filter, we use this water for all drinking and cooking. We have to buy new filters usually once a year. It is not possible for us to easily filter the water in our bathroom, shower and bath, fluoride is also absorbed through the skin, so although we filter out drinking and cooking water it is impossible to to eliminate fluoride totally.

My family, like everyone else, enjoys to go out for a meal, coffee or a drink and we are again exposed to fluoride. Should we stay indoors, never eat at a restaurant or go for a drink with friends, so we can 'easily' opt out of fluoride, a medication we don't want to take?

Is it tough luck to us who don't own our own homes with acess to a well, or who cannot afford to totally rework their plumbing to remove fluoride? We pay to remove as much as we can and soon we will being paying for the water too.

I understand that some people believe that fluoride is beneficial to them and its handy to have it in the water, they are perfectly entitled to this opinion and to ingest fluoride if that's their choice. But what about the people who don't want to ingest it? Are we not also entitled to our opinion and choice as to whether we medicate ourselves with it?

You see if it really was easy to opt out of this medication there wouldn't be a problem but the truth is it is not easy and actually almost impossible to avoid.

Why should people who do not want to medicate with fluoride be forced to go through great expense and work to remove fluoride from the water coming into their homes? And yet after doing all this are still exposed anytime they eat, drink or wash themselves while outside home.

We could remove fluoride from the public water supply and save the country hundreds of thousands of € a year and anyone who wants fluoride can use toothpaste and take a fluoride tablet which costs about €7 for 3 months supply.
Does this not make more sense and is also more ethical?