How to size a whisker pole.

Vexorg

We are looking into getting a whisker pole to improve downwind performance and to stop the human pole (me) complaining about sore arms.

From what I have read on correct sizing, the whisker pole should be 100% of the foot of the head sail, our head sail has a 4 meter foot, is it as simple as a using a 4 meter pole or are there some other calculations to use. As a human pole I get a maximum of maybe 3 meters when hanging out of the rigging, 4 meters seems too long. Am I missing anything?

neris

Any increase in a pole length will affect your rating. Whisker poles were generally used on old ior boats on the spinnaker guys to push the guy further out from the boat when going downwind, not many boats using them anymore

Vexorg

Many of the boats we raced against in the dbsc white sails (non hi tech sails and non spinnaker) seemed to pole out their jibs/genoas on downwind legs. Its our first year racing, so perhaps I am mistaken or not explaining it properly.

I do not have the class rules to hand, but assuming poling out the jib is allowed and does not affect the boats rating how would we determine the correct size pole.

Vexorg

Just had a read of the rules, it simply states that "whisker or spinnaker poles are allowed for headsails."

neris

Poling out the jib is perfectly legit for racing. Most boats would use spinnaker poles rather then whiskers for poling out. Under measurements for ratings the length of a pole is one of the factors in making up a rating especially under irc.

Vexorg

Thanks Neris.

We have tried the spinnaker pole, but it was a clumsy process, probably due to our inexperience. The pole is just over 4m long but seemed to be too long for the headsail when we used it, it seemed like it would suit an overlapping head sail, which is why I am wondering how you determine the optimal pole length.

What I cannot get my head around is how spinnaker pole size can affect a rating in a non spinnaker class. Is there not an optimal length for a particular headsail, so if the pole is too short or too long it would not perform as well as the correctly sized pole which holds the sail in the optimal position.

You will forgive me if the questions seem silly:), still trying to figure stuff out and keep making improvements.

Stheno

Vexorg wrote: »

Many of the boats we raced against in the dbsc white sails (non hi tech sails and non spinnaker) seemed to pole out their jibs/genoas on downwind legs. Its our first year racing, so perhaps I am mistaken or not explaining it properly.

I do not have the class rules to hand, but assuming poling out the jib is allowed and does not affect the boats rating how would we determine the correct size pole.

Vexorg wrote: »

Thanks Neris.

We have tried the spinnaker pole, but it was a clumsy process, probably due to our inexperience. The pole is just over 4m long but seemed to be too long for the headsail when we used it, it seemed like it would suit an overlapping head sail, which is why I am wondering how you determine the optimal pole length.

What I cannot get my head around is how spinnaker pole size can affect a rating in a non spinnaker class. Is there not an optimal length for a particular headsail, so if the pole is too short or too long it would not perform as well as the correctly sized pole which holds the sail in the optimal position.

You will forgive me if the questions seem silly:), still trying to figure stuff out and keep making improvements.

@ Vexorg, on the whitesails boat I'm on we use a whisker pole exactly as you describe.

It is approximiately the length of the bottom of the jib when fully extended.

The "bowman" who uses the pole on our boat this year, was also new to it and it was a clumsy process, as we practiced going along we found that having two people to get the pole up (onto the sheets, then the mast, uphaul etc) helped, it was a matter of figuring out what was wrong. Once we figured that out, (including some silly things like fittings getting in the way) it was easier.

ado100

I don't know of any formula for working out the correct length of a whisker pole but I'm guessing your spinnaker pole would be in around the right length.

But I'm struggling to work out why you would want to use a whisker pole rather than using your existing spinnaker pole. Apart from having to carry the extra bit of kit and have it secured on deck when not in use, a whisker pole of similar length would need to be strong enough to handle the gusts and would therefore need to be supported in some way so as not to weigh down the clew - your spinnaker pole is already kitted out to do that.

Stheno

ado100 wrote: »

I don't know of any formula for working out the correct length of a whisker pole but I'm guessing your spinnaker pole would be in around the right length.

But I'm struggling to work out why you would want to use a whisker pole rather than using your existing spinnaker pole. Apart from having to carry the extra bit of kit and have it secured on deck when not in use, a whisker pole of similar length would need to be strong enough to handle the gusts and would therefore need to be supported in some way so as not to weigh down the clew - your spinnaker pole is already kitted out to do that.

Having thought about what we do, we actually have two poles that we use, and I'm not sure of the terminology (sorry I'm a newbie)

Anyway for long downwind courses between marks, we use what to me is a spinnaker pole, it connects to the jib sheet, and the mast, has an uphaul and downhaul and you can control it using those. We would rarely adjust the sheets when using this, rather we've someone controlling the pole, and getting someone to adjust the uphaul/downhaul if needed.

On shorter downwind courses we use an extendable pole which is freestanding in that it attaches to the jib sheet, and is held/controlled by crew, no uphaul or downhaul and is extendable in terms of length.

Does that make any sense to anyone?

To me the first is a spinny/whisker pole (in my naive thinking) being used to maximise extending a jib downwind not sure if the second is a whisker?

And @ Vexorg, I empathise with being the human whisker, had that joy this weekend in a GP14!

Steve

Vexorg wrote: »

What I cannot get my head around is how spinnaker pole size can affect a rating in a non spinnaker class.

It affects your IRC cert, if you were only racing ECHO then it wouldn't matter but I see you're in the IRC results as well.

That said, as long as you don't exceed the length of the spinny pole (measured when attached to the mast and is touching the forestay) then you are fine.

Is there not an optimal length for a particular headsail, so if the pole is too short or too long it would not perform as well as the correctly sized pole which holds the sail in the optimal position.

Yes - as far out as you can get it when sailing dead downwind goosewinged. What most people tend to concentrate on is the bottom third of the sail, it's more important that you pay attention to the entire sail for best performance.
This means that the vertical position of the end of the pole is critical. If it's too high then you lose all drive from the top half of the sail. Too low and you reduce the effective area of the top and also lose drive. The trick is to maintain the same shape all the way up and still provide maximum exposure to the wind.

An advantage of using a spinny pole over a whisker pole is that by using the track on the mast you can easily control it's apparent length (shorten it by going higher on the mast, lengthen by lowering it).

With a pit of practice, you should be able to have it pre-rigged with an aft led spinnaker sheet as you approach the windward mark.
Have the inboard end set to the right height on the mast with the lazy sheet over it, as you round, hoist the outboard end & swing it outboard. Gybe the headsail and trim on the spinnaker sheet. :cool:

You will forgive me if the questions seem silly:), still trying to figure stuff out and keep making improvements.

Nah, not silly. It would be silly not to ask.

Steve

Stheno wrote: »

On shorter downwind courses we use an extendable pole which is freestanding in that it attaches to the jib sheet, and is held/controlled by crew, no uphaul or downhaul and is extendable in terms of length.

Commonly known in the trade as a boat-hook :D

(yeah, it's a whisker as opposed to a spinnaker pole)

Usless trivia: In days of old, there were fixed outriggers the size of telegraph poles on sailing ships to extend outboard the sheeting points for the foresails (same as we're talking about in this thread).
There were often a few of these on each side and as the ship approached they resembled cats whiskers - hence the name whisker pole.

It's the yellow pole in this pic:

Stheno

Thanks Steve, I was wondering about the two
.
Always great to be able to come on here and ask a very basic question and get an explanation, appreciate it

In that case, I need to amend what I said above, the spinny is what takes an age to get one the sheet, then the mast, then adjusting the uphaul etc.

With the whisker, it's onto the sheet, adjust it and manipulate it, it's much quicker. But it's a lot more work for the person handling it as they don't have the mast attachment, uphaul/downhaul etc to help them.

pedroeibar1

I'm not sure when a special 'whisker pole' came into being to ple outa genny, but in my day a whisker pole was used only on the spinaker guy. As the spinnypole has to be allowed as far possible when on a reach, on boats designed for IOR (very wide beam) the guy was against/on the shrouds. By using a whisker pole it not only kept the guy off the rigging but also increased the angle of the guy, making it easier to winch back when required. Boathooks were used on a genny, never a spinnypole.

There is a piece on selecting / size of whisker poles here

Vexorg

Thanks for the replies, after lots of reading it seems the whisker pole optimum size is pretty much the same size as our spinnaker pole, so its just a matter of getting used to it. The effect on the rating makes sence also. I will have to watch other boats in the class with a non overlapping jib/Genoa to see how they pole out, if there are any apart from us.

ado100

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I'm not sure when a special 'whisker pole' came into being to ple outa genny, but in my day a whisker pole was used only on the spinaker guy. As the spinnypole has to be allowed as far possible when on a reach, on boats designed for IOR (very wide beam) the guy was against/on the shrouds. By using a whisker pole it not only kept the guy off the rigging but also increased the angle of the guy, making it easier to winch back when required. Boathooks were used on a genny, never a spinnypole.

There is a piece on selecting / size of whisker poles here

A 'Jockey Pole' keeps the spinnaker guy off the shrouds on a reach, a 'Whisker Pole' is used to pole out the headsail on a run.

pedroeibar1

ado100 wrote: »

A 'Jockey Pole' keeps the spinnaker guy off the shrouds on a reach, a 'Whisker Pole' is used to pole out the headsail on a run.

Thanks Ado. I did know that but brain must have been elsewhere when I responded.