Query about sick leave and what an employer can/cannot ask

LegacyUser

Hey all,

This is actually not about me, it's about one the employees who reports to me. She's been sick on and off all year (a day here, a day there). Now HR are looking for reason for why she's sick. There's an underlying reason for her absences, but she doesn't want to tell the company for personal reasons (she's told me personally, and I totally understand why she wouldn't say anything).

Now the HR dept (who is one person) wants to have a doctor's note for each and every sickness (which the employee is okay about) but also is viewing this as a negative mark against the employee. The HR person also wants to know why the employee has been sick.

I assume the employee doesn't have to give any of this information over? What sort of leeway does a company have on disciplining someone for sickness?

Also, our HR person has told me that she wants to have meeting with employee about this, but she wanted to keep meeting a secret from employee until right before meeting so they "wouldn't have time to come up with excuse/etc". I told her that was extremely petty, unfair & unprofessional. She laughed it off as just a different viewpoint on HR - am I going mad or is this utterly wrong from HR?

Eoin

I would also want to know why someone is off regularly, and would also be looking for a doctor's note if it continued - I don't see a problem with that.

What sort of leeway does a company have on disciplining someone for sickness

A fair bit of leeway. Absenteeism - even if genuine - is typically handled through the disciplinary procedures. That might sound unfair as it's not the same as someone acting the arse at work, but that's how it's done.

As this person's manager, does the regular sick leave not inconvenience you at all?

Mrs OBumble

Brief your own manager about the situation (not the illness, just the general details and that you're sympathetic), and decide with them how much you value the employee and how well you want to treat her.

Then have your manager tell HR how to handle it.

Your HR should be achieving management's goals (whatever they are), not driving the bus themselves.

Nody

Do you pay for her time off? Because if someone is serial sick (even with genuine reasons) I can see why the company and HR would have questions. I had an direct report that had to have dialysis on a regular basis (poor kidneys) and it ended up that he stopped being paid for his sick leave simply because it was not intended for someone being out of office every two weeks (even if it was only a few hours to half a day it all adds up along with the general disruption of work piling up).

Eoin

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Your HR should be achieving management's goals (whatever they are), not driving the bus themselves.

I don't entirely agree with this. HR often need to manage managers themselves, even if it means inconveniencing their goals. It's not up to the OP's manager to "tell HR how to handle this" IMO, just to give HR as much background as they think is necessary.

Mrs OBumble

Eoin wrote: »

I don't entirely agree with this. HR often need to manage managers themselves, even if it means inconveniencing their goals. It's not up to the OP's manager to "tell HR how to handle this" IMO, just to give HR as much background as they think is necessary.

That comes down to the company culture, and the job descriptions that both HR and managers have.

It's different in every company,

One approach is that HR's role is advisory, while managers are accountable. A bit like the legal department - they give managers advice about how to handle things, but the managers are ultimately accountable for their staff relationships.

Another is that HR are the people managers, and that line managers are actually just project managers who get things done with the people that HR provdies them.

The first approach works well when the managers are decent - but sucks when managers are poor. The second tends to be more legalistic and less humane overall, but safeguards the company from some legal risks.

In a really extreme example of the first case (which my brother works for), there is no HR department, apart from the central payroll. Managers are accountable, and not supported, for the way they manager their staff. and Finance budget an annual amount for Labour Court settlements.

Hopefully the OP's manager can help him/her to understand how things work in their company.

Neyite

Would your employee/ HR agree to a compromise?

For instance for the employee to attend a HR/ Company approved doctor to verify genuine illness or to give permission for Company doctor to discuss with employees GP as a third party verification without disclosing the nature of the illness?

If your employee is up against a wall then a GP might be able to help - my GP agreed that if I needed certs to attend our Fertility clinic, she would write them, as I didnt want them to know we were trying to get pregnant. As it happens, all my appointments were outside of work hours so I never needed that option.

Another GP years ago wrote a different ailment on my cert than I actually had at his own suggestion.

Both times the HR people involved were the biggest gossip-mongers in the office and it was more about them being nosy than actually doing their job.

Irish_Elect_Eng

Neyite wrote: »

Would your employee/ HR agree to a compromise?

For instance for the employee to attend a HR/ Company approved doctor to verify genuine illness or to give permission for Company doctor to discuss with employees GP as a third party verification without disclosing the nature of the illness?

If your employee is up against a wall then a GP might be able to help - my GP agreed that if I needed certs to attend our Fertility clinic, she would write them, as I didnt want them to know we were trying to get pregnant. As it happens, all my appointments were outside of work hours so I never needed that option.

Another GP years ago wrote a different ailment on my cert than I actually had at his own suggestion.

Both times the HR people involved were the biggest gossip-mongers in the office and it was more about them being nosy than actually doing their job.

GPs willingness to be "creative" on sickness certs is on of the reasons that HR are often so suspicious. Rightly so in some cases, but unfairly in others.

Neyite

Irish_Elect_Eng wrote: »

GPs willingness to be "creative" on sickness certs is on of the reasons that HR are often so suspicious. Rightly so in some cases, but unfairly in others.

Absolutely. And I'd have no problem putting the real reasons in both instances if I hadnt had previously heard HR directly gossiping about colleagues medical issues. So it works both ways. If they believe they have a right to sensitive information, they should treat it as highly confidential. Its a bit Chicken/Egg really.

stevenmu

workissues wrote: »

Also, our HR person has told me that she wants to have meeting with employee about this, but she wanted to keep meeting a secret from employee until right before meeting so they "wouldn't have time to come up with excuse/etc". I told her that was extremely petty, unfair & unprofessional. She laughed it off as just a different viewpoint on HR - am I going mad or is this utterly wrong from HR?

That sounds utterly wrong to me. That sounds like HR want to hold a disciplinary meeting with the employee, in which case the employee is entitled to due notice and has the option of requesting some representation. They are certainly entitled to not be ambushed by it.

I'm in no way an expert or a legal type person, but I would have thought a deliberate ambush like that could easily open the way for a claim of harassment/bullying etc.

edit: I'm amazed by that really, that's the exact type of thing that HR are supposed to prevent, they're supposed to be the people who know how to handle these situations correctly.

bbam

In fairness the company have a right to know the score, or at least some of the details..
If the HR person has a head on their shoulders they will request the employee to visit a doctor at the choosing and expence of the company. this doctor will provide the relavent information.

Its best if the employee meets with OP and the HR person and at least some sort of compromise is reached between secrecy/privacy/the companies expectation to understand why a person is off work..

In my previous position this is where the sompany would have gone and I can understand the position.. Continued absenteeism certified or not is a matter for performance managment and can result in disciplinary action.

Its a two way street, if the employee expects their job to be held open for them, then they are going to have to poney up dome level of detail.

Bepolite

To address a couple of points.

It's perfectly acceptable legally to ambush someone with an investigation meeting. This would have to be separate and distinct from a disciplinary hearing though.

In relation to not telling HR about the issues. This just seems odd. The business needs to know the basics as they will need to carry out the relevant risk assessments etc. It seems equally as odd that you are posting here rather than discussing the issues within the business.

Lastly it is perfectly acceptable to (ultimately) dismiss a genuinely sick employee where the amount of sick time impacts the employees ability to do the job.

There appears to be bigger issues at play here that someone within the business need to address.

wallycharlo

In my own opinion if you are out sick very often, then you are as well off to sit down with your supervisor and be as open as you can, both for your own sake, and also for that of the team that you are part of.