licence refused

marleyd1

Im looking for some advice please

I bought a gun but was refused a licence and the gun dealer is saying he is under no obligation to refund the money because it is paid in full. does he have a right to do this? and can you legally own a gun without a licence?

Any advice would be appreciated.

LIFFY FISHING

First step you could try is to appeal the decision of your refusal.
In relation to the dealer, did he clearly explain the terms and conditions in relation to your firearm purchase, secondly was it in stock or specially ordered for you.
You can not posess a firearm without a valid licence, it is a criminal offense to do so.

It wasn't me!

Ownership and possession are two separate issues. It's entirely possible to own a firearm you don't have a licence for - it's why the deposit entitles you to a reasonable expectation that the gun which you've partly paid for won't be sold out from under you. That doesn't mean you're entitled to have it in your possession, but you'll still own it. Similarly, that ownership entitles you to sell the firearm, so you can advertise it privately at whatever price you want but as you've given the dealer the value he wanted for it, he's got no say now in how you would sell it, would be my understanding.

The Aussie

Was a reason given for refusal (if not request it in writing)

Ask for a meeting with the Super and have a chat with him.

Don't give up on Firearm ownership so easily, Hurdles are made to be Jumped.

Cass

You can own as many guns as you like without a license once they remain in the dealers. A license is only required to be in possession or use of the gun. As the gun is paid for and the dealer cannot legally give it out to you without the license it can be stored there until you sell it on.


With regard to the money:

• Did you make any prior arrangement?
• As asked above was it in stock or imported for you?
• Did the dealer demand all the money up front or did you offer?

Hindsight is a great thing, but i have always said NEVER, NEVER, pay the full amount asked for upfront. A deposit of 5 - 10% is more than sufficient to hold any gun, and the dealers know that it can take time due to our licensing process to get a license so should not be pressuring anyone. Most dealers operate a system of refunds only when refused, and not for change of mind. Also the reason why i say only pay a deposit. If this happens you are out a small amount of money should the dealer turn out to be an unpleasant person.

With regard to the license, as said above you can appeal. This takes time, and money which usually puts people off. Few questions:

• What reasons were you given for the refusal?
• Did you receive a letter of refusal? This is SOP when a refusal occurs.
• Did you make an appointment to speak to the FO or Super to see if it can be resolved?
• What gun was it? Make, model, caliber, etc.
• Was it your first firearm?

Mezamo

AFAIK if you bring a written copy of your refusal to the dealer most of them should give you your money back.

Duster

marleyd1 wrote: »

Im looking for some advice please

I bought a gun but was refused a licence and the gun dealer is saying he is under no obligation to refund the money because it is paid in full. does he have a right to do this? and can you legally own a gun without a licence?

Any advice would be appreciated.

As the others said, go speak to the super and you should get it sorted unless your "known" to them for other reasons...

And Name the dealer who is refusing the refund so as others can avoid him

rowa

Duster wrote: »

As the others said, go speak to the super and you should get it sorted unless your "known" to them for other reasons...

And Name the dealer who is refusing the refund so as others can avoid him

If the op was known to the gardai then its unlikely they would have taken the application off him in the first place. As to the dealer, what if the gun was ordered in specially for the op ? The dealer is now stuck with stock he didn't want.

Cass

rowa wrote: »

If the op was known to the gardai then its unlikely they would have taken the application off him in the first place.

Correct. Persons disentitled to apply include:

• A person currently serving or has served a prison sentence of not less than 3 months.
• A person who has served such a sentence within the last 5 years.
• A person of unsound mind.
• A person under the supervision of An Gardaí
• A person bound to the peace/on probation
• A person of intemperate character (addictive/indulgences/lack of self control)

If you don't fall into one of those categories then applying is one of the few entitlements we have in relation to firearms. However if the OP falls into one of these, but is a first time offender (IOW not known to the Gardaí or the one on the desk) s/he may have submitted the application and when the background search was done was found to be unsuitable/disentitled.

As to the dealer, what if the gun was ordered in specially for the op ? The dealer is now stuck with stock he didn't want.

I agree that a dealer that imports a firearm specifically for the OP is entitled to be compensated, but should he have actually imported it before the license came through. I have done this twice and both times the dealer got me a serial number and waited for the license to come through before actually shipping it. That way he is not out of pocket, nor was i.


This is what i meant by the above. Set out the deal before doing anything. Agree on a deposit, import only upon successful completion of the application, etc, etc.

marleyd1

I would like to thank everyone for there replys.
I bought a lanber deluxe sporter o/u 12g shotgun off the shelf for 800 euro, the dealer did not order in. it is my first gun and i bought it for clay pigeon shooting.
I paid for the gun in full thinking i was doing good on my own behalf and i am after learning a very costly lesson.
A person of intemperate character was wrote on my letter of refusal as i was convicted of assault in my teenage years which i regret.
This hole incident has put me off taking up clay shooting as a sport.
the dealer told me he is under no obligation to give me my money back.

rowa

marleyd1 wrote: »

I would like to thank everyone for there replys.
I bought a lanber deluxe sporter o/u 12g shotgun off the shelf for 800 euro, the dealer did not order in. it is my first gun and i bought it for clay pigeon shooting.
I paid for the gun in full thinking i was doing good on my own behalf and i am after learning a very costly lesson.
A person of intemperate character was wrote on my letter of refusal as i was convicted of assault in my teenage years which i regret.
This hole incident has put me off taking up clay shooting as a sport.
the dealer told me he is under no obligation to give me my money back.

off to citizens advice centre or a solictor so.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland.html

aaakev

No use to you now but meeting with the super before applying might have been a good idea.

The dealer is right he is under no obligation to give you back your money, you made a purchase and now expect a refund because your not legaly entitled to posses your purchased goods. This is not his fault or his problem, thats the cold hard truth of it

Not saying I agree with it because I dont but he is not doing anything wrong.

Someone is going to have to take a hit and its going to you. Ask the dealer to sell it for you and give him a cut or advertise it yourself.

Your other option is to ask for a meeting with your super, you will have to convince him you are not that person any longer and he might change his mind, tell you to give it 6 months and apply again or stick to his guns and say no again.... Id do this first because as it stands now you have nothing more to loose

marleyd1

Thank you aaakev and rowa for your advice.

Cass

marleyd1 wrote: »

A person of intemperate character was wrote on my letter of refusal as i was convicted of assault in my teenage years which i regret.

That would a reason so.

Do you mind me asking how long ago. If it were long enough ago it could be grounds to appeal. Before going the solicitor route i would attempt to make an appointment with the Super, and have a sit down. See what they think, and you can try to convince him/her that you have changed and can be trusted with a gun.

If that fails then either an appeal or forgot the whole thing. Now you have been refused you must declare so on any future applications.

the dealer told me he is under no obligation to give me my money back.

Legally he is not. Hence the deposit i spoke of previously.

aaakev wrote: »

The dealer is right he is under no obligation to give you back your money, you made a purchase and now expect a refund because your not legaly entitled to posses your purchased goods. This is not his fault or his problem, thats the cold hard truth of it

Not saying I agree with it because I dont but he is not doing anything wrong.

Very true, but as the gun was not imported, and in the interest of good faith he could issue a refund. If it came to it he could demand a small fee, say 10%, for holding the gun and loosing other sales of it, but he could play ball if he wanted to.

Someone is going to have to take a hit and its going to you. Ask the dealer to sell it for you and give him a cut or advertise it yourself.

Advertise it yourself, and cut out the dealer. He cannot do anything as it stands because he cannot sell it (it's your gun) and he cannot demand you take it out of the shop (as you have no license).

Sell it as a brand new, unused gun.

One shot on kill

Was the gun brand new or second hand.

When I was buying my last rifle. The dealer told me to pay in full up front so he can pay the guy that owned it at the time. Irregardless of my license situation. And that the gun would be mine and have to sell it on for me should anything not go to plan.

I started laughing and put 100 euro on the counter and asked did he want to sell it or not.

He took the deposit and everything worked.

So why I say if it was someone else's gun it's very possae the dealer paid them an all and was only acting as a middle man. So as a result he doesn't actually have your money to give back to.

Unless the gun was new. Then that changes things.

bravestar

One shot on kill wrote: »

IrRegardless of my license situation. ...

Fixed that for ya.

One shot on kill

Fair play.

Go for a shot lad you have to much time on your hands.:P:D:D:D;)

viper123

marleyd1 wrote: »

I would like to thank everyone for there replys.
I bought a lanber deluxe sporter o/u 12g shotgun off the shelf for 800 euro, the dealer did not order in. it is my first gun and i bought it for clay pigeon shooting.
I paid for the gun in full thinking i was doing good on my own behalf and i am after learning a very costly lesson.
A person of intemperate character was wrote on my letter of refusal as i was convicted of assault in my teenage years which i regret.
This hole incident has put me off taking up clay shooting as a sport.
the dealer told me he is under no obligation to give me my money back.

Its a tricky one to be honest as the dealer was holding a firearm since your application went in that he was unable to sell. Also I can't see how citizens advice can help you here, you paid in full for a product which you do legally own (but cannot legally use). To me it's probably easier to just list it for sale here or sell it on through a RFD of your choosing.

Witcher

I wouldn't even buy off a dealer that wanted money upfront. Never left more than €50 off a gun

The Aussie

Could you store it at the Clay Club you are joining?

I think I've heard that some of the bigger ones have Gun storage facilities, that way you can use it and leave it there, mind you I've never been a member of any Club so don't know how it would work, just an idea.....

deerhunter1

Duster wrote: »

As the others said, go speak to the super and you should get it sorted unless your "known" to them for other reasons...

And Name the dealer who is refusing the refund so as others can avoid him

Yes it is a general rule with all RFD's I assumed that on refusal you got a refund,unless it was a special order, if not name him here so no-one else is screwed, long enough we are being screwed by them

bravestar

One shot on kill wrote: »

Fair play.

Go for a shot lad you have to much time on your hands.:P:D:D:D;)

Waiting on feckin fastway to deliver some ammo so blame them

Tawny Owl

bravestar wrote: »

Fixed that for ya.

One shot on kill wrote: »

Fair play.

Go for a shot lad you have to much time on your hands.:P:D:D:D;)

Laughing at both of you as I know you both through buying a safe from me and can see your faces, very good lads a great bit of banter it's what this site is also about happy shooting anyway.

Tawny Owl:p:D:D:D;)

Tawny Owl

To the OP on the issue of the Gun, that you can not get a Licence for at the moment, stick it up here on Boards.ie in the for sale section and do include a photo, and hopefully us lads can help all parties come to a conclusion and get a good price on a brand new Gun never used, someone has to be looking for a good deal.come on lads and lassies how can we help here.;)

The Aussie

The Aussie wrote: »

Could you store it at the Clay Club you are joining?

I think I've heard that some of the bigger ones have Gun storage facilities, that way you can use it and leave it there.

Been thinking if you went through the route above and stored it at a place like Courtlough would you have to submit another FCA1, is storing it at a range that has authorised storage facilities the same as having it at a RFD?

One shot on kill

I suppose it is once there an RFD aswell. Which courtlough is as far as I know.

BattleCorp

If you have your heart set on clay pidgeon shooting and getting this gun, then make an appointment to go see the Super and have a chat with him.

You never know, you might be able to show him that you've changed and that the assault was in your teenage years.

I wouldn't give up just yet. Arrange the meeting and see how things go.

And if all else fails, you can sell the gun, which mightn't leave you too far out of pocket. You never know, you might even end up making a profit.

TriggerPL

When did this happen bear in mind you have 28 days to appeal it to a district court , see the super look for a reason tell him , that unless it get sorted in a civil matter then you will be seeking legal means of obtaining it .

If you have been a Gud boy and join a club or got insurance and a safe no judge in the country will refuse ya .

And if ya have been acting the mick , with public order offences , I still wouldn't rule it out , it will cost no more than 300 in a court .

But unless the super has a really Gud reason then you should get it .

Where you based

TriggerPL

Just seen u were convicted of assault in ur teens what age were you then and now ?

And what section assault was it

Cass

The reason of "intemperate character" is a death knoll, to a degree. The OP even got this in a refusal letter. So the Super has acted correctly, and followed the letter of the law.

Yes he can appeal the decision, but that term (intemperate character) covers such an array of topics, and has such implications that i doubt any appeal would be successful. Plus at a few thousand Euro to bring it to court the OP needs to ask is he ready and willing to fight it to the end, whatever that may be.

Now please do not confuse what i've just said as a "go home and forget about it" statement. I am merely laying out all the options, and possibilities so the OP does not run at this without understanding what will be involved. He may have other options such as a meeting with the Super, as i suggested at the start of the thread, re-applying at a later date, etc.

hfallada

OP one of the basic principles of a contact is legality of form.eg a contract most be legal. It's not legal for you to own a gun therefore there is no contract with you and the dealer. I would try and resolve the issue with him again as the small claims court could take for ever