SuperValu Off-license?

Hello,

Just wondering I was recently at a supervalu in Wicklow and it was my first time buying alcohol at supervalu and they said they only serve over 21's. Is that age in all the stores or just some. I have not tried my local supervalu and they have a deal on some vodka I was going to get. So I am going to save the trouble of going down there and getting denied and instead id ask here =P

Thanks.

(I am 18 and I have a Garda age card)

AndonHandon

Yeah, 21s is their policy I'm afraid. I remember when I was under 21 and couldn't buy booze there because of it. Just have to go elsewhere.

AndonHandon

AndonHandon wrote: »

Yeah, 21s is their policy I'm afraid. I remember when I was under 21 and couldn't buy booze there because of it. Just have to go elsewhere.

Bit annoying tbh. They should accept it if not take two forms of ID so they can ensure its you =/.

dudara

The retailer reserves the right of sale, i.e. they can adopt their own sales policy.

the groutch

afaik they can look for ID from anyone they think is under 21, but if you can prove you're over 18, not selling to someone on the grounds of being under 21 is age discrimination.
not sure who specifically to make your complaint to, but I wouldnt let it lie.

the groutch

the groutch wrote: »

afaik they can look for ID from anyone they think is under 21, but if you can prove you're over 18, not selling to someone on the grounds of being under 21 is age discrimination.
not sure who specifically to make your complaint to, but I wouldnt let it lie.

Yeah it happend in tesco to me. I was using a passport that time because I didnt have the age card of that stage. I always thought that if you have a valid form of ID they have to serve/sell to you.

sandin

the groutch wrote: »

afaik they can look for ID from anyone they think is under 21, but if you can prove you're over 18, not selling to someone on the grounds of being under 21 is age discrimination.
not sure who is responsible for their licence to complain to, but I wouldnt let it lie.

A retailer can create its own age rule as long as they apply it to everyone.

There is no-one, absolutely no-one that you can complain to as it is entirely the retailer's prerogative as to what rules they make as long as the rules are within the law.

If they want to apply a over 40 age limit, they can do so, once they keep to the rule and not say over 40 to one person and then serve someone else that is under 40.

the groutch

never said it was illegal, just calling it out for what it is.
the OP should at least contact Musgraves head office imo, they might be interested in knowing their franchisee is turning away business like this.

garhjw

the groutch wrote: »

never said it was illegal, just calling it out for what it is.
the OP should at least contact Musgraves head office imo, they might be interested in knowing their franchisee is turning away business like this.

sorry but that is nonsense. Musgraves or the individual shop can adopt their own policy. they might have concerns that someone who is 18 or 19 is buying drink for people who are underage.

I think it is to be commended and shows common sense and social awareness

rubadub

Trying to buy spirits is not helping matters, you are more likely to get beer or cider, in a normal quantity. They are far more wary about selling spirits as its so easier to overdose on it, last thing the want is it in the news.

In my O'Briens I hear the workers warning each other about certain guys buying for others. I had an offie owner chase down the road after me once as I bought vodka, I was down the road with my friend, both of us over 18, he had just been in the shop, he must have looked out the window after me to see if I was meeting others who were hiding.

the groutch

garhjw wrote: »

sorry but that is nonsense. Musgraves or the individual shop can adopt their own policy. they might have concerns that someone who is 18 or 19 is buying drink for people who are underage.

I think it is to be commended and shows common sense and social awareness

that's a whole different kettle of fish, and purely heresay

all we know from the OP is that he was told that because he's in the 18-20 age bracket they are refusing to sell to him.

foggy_lad

OP was told that because he was under 21 the shop were refusing to sell him alcohol which is is something they are very much entitled to do as long as they don't tell someone else that the age limit is 18.

foggy_lad

foggy_lad wrote: »

OP was told that because he was under 21 the shop were refusing to sell him alcohol which is is something they are very much entitled to do as long as they don't tell someone else that the age limit is 18.

I was at supervalu today at my local one and I got sold alcohol...so I don't know what is going on with the store.

Bepolite

Deleted User wrote: »

I was at supervalu today at my local one and I got sold alcohol...so I don't know what is going on with the store.

Probably had a warning for X, Y or Z.

Incidentally Garda age card is the only form ID that would provide the off-license with a defence if it turned out the person was underage/not them etc. Passports should not be out and about with people to buy booze.

keithclancy

Bepolite wrote: »

Probably had a warning for X, Y or Z.

Incidentally Garda age card is the only form ID that would provide the off-license with a defence if it turned out the person was underage/not them etc. Passports should not be out and about with people to buy booze.

And for people that haven't lived in Ireland for years and are just visiting ?

Bepolite

keithclancy wrote: »

And for people that haven't lived in Ireland for years and are just visiting ?

Discussion done to death. The law is what it is. Passports are what they are.

keithclancy

Bepolite wrote: »

Discussion done to death. The law is what it is. Passports are what they are.

Yup, totally clear from a government perspective:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/alcohol_and_the_law.html

Anyone found guilty of forging or altering the details on an official Age Card can be liable on summary conviction to a class C fine or to a prison term not exceeding 12 months or to both. Licence holders that allow people between 18-21 years on their premises without appropriate identification can face a fine. (Appropriate identification includes a National Age Card, a passport, a driving licence, or a identity card issued by an EU member state).

So according to the Law a License holder can accept a Passport.

The particular act:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2003/en/act/pub/0031/sec0015.html#sec15

(2) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section ‘age document’ means a document containing a photograph of the person in respect of whom it was issued and information that enables the age of the person to be determined and being one of the following documents relating to a person referred to in that subsection:

(a) an age card referred to in section 40 of this Act,

(b) a passport,

(c) an identity card issued by a member state of the European Communities,

(d) a driver licence, or

(e) a document issued by a body, and in a form, prescribed by regulations made by the Minister.

Bepolite

keithclancy wrote: »

Yup, totally clear from a government perspective:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/alcohol_and_the_law.html



So according to the Law a License holder can accept a Passport.

And off-licences as per the topic of this thread? Make sure you look at the latest legislation.

keithclancy

Bepolite wrote: »

And off-licences as per the topic of this thread? Make sure you look at the latest legislation.

Yes ... Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008 covers off licenses, also it made no amendment to section 15 of the 2003 bill.

Where is this law your talking about that they can only accept Garda Age Cards.

I don't believe it would be legal under the right of free movement within the European Union.

Bepolite

keithclancy wrote: »

Yes ... Intoxicating Liquor Act 2008 covers off licenses, also it made no amendment to section 15 of the 2003 bill.

Where is this law your talking about that they can only accept Garda Age Cards.

I don't believe it would be legal under the right of free movement within the European Union.

I've never said they can only accept a Garda age card. I've attempted to explain (perhaps in too subtle terms) why certain policies exist. The Age card is the only due dilgence defence available to off licences.

As to the last part - very droll.

Also to address the 'it's not discrimination as they are banning everyone' that's still discrimination. It would be like saying 'No Blacks' is fine as long as you ban all blacks. There are exceptions to discrimination legislation in relation to the sale of alcohol.

EDIT: from a quick search of this forum. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80440804&postcount=6

If you're aware of the outcome of the SC case I'd be obliged for the enlightenment.

keithclancy

Bepolite wrote: »

I've never said they can only accept a Garda age card. I've attempted to explain (perhaps in too subtle terms) why certain policies exist. The Age card is the only due dilgence defence available to off licences.

As to the last part - very droll.

Also to address the 'it's not discrimination as they are banning everyone' that's still discrimination. It would be like saying 'No Blacks' is fine as long as you ban all blacks. There are exceptions to discrimination legislation in relation to the sale of alcohol.

EDIT: from a quick search of this forum. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80440804&postcount=6

If you're aware of the outcome of the SC case I'd be obliged for the enlightenment.

Yes, from the case:

proof of age may be established by the production of what is called an “Age Document”, which the section defines as including, an age card, a passport, a drivers licence and an E.U. identity card.

And as for being very droll, if it was written into law that a card only possible to obtain as an Irish Resident was needed to purchase something that was legally and easily obtainable in other member states it would be deemed illegal under EU laws on free movement of goods and services

You cannot treat residents differently to non residents in Law.

As for what the bar/off license does, that's their own made up rule.

rubadub

Deleted User wrote: »

I was at supervalu today at my local one and I got sold alcohol...so I don't know what is going on with the store.

I doubt they have the same policy in all of them. You might look older too, and even the "look of you" will matter, like that inbetweeners program they send in the well spoken lad to get booze.

Getting 2 cans of beer is going to be far easier than a full bottle of vodka.

rubadub

rubadub wrote: »

I doubt they have the same policy in all of them. You might look older too, and even the "look of you" will matter, like that inbetweeners program they send in the well spoken lad to get booze.

Getting 2 cans of beer is going to be far easier than a full bottle of vodka.

Yeah it depends on the place. Some places I have not been asked for ID but this time I was asked for ID and it was for a bottle of vodka =P

Bepolite

keithclancy wrote: »

Yes, from the case:

Could you provide a citation please? Age document is not what is written in the Act, I'd be very interested to see how they got around that.

keithclancy wrote: »

And as for being very droll, if it was written into law that a card only possible to obtain as an Irish Resident was needed to purchase something that was legally and easily obtainable in other member states it would be deemed illegal under EU laws on free movement of goods and services

You cannot treat residents differently to non residents in Law.

As for what the bar/off license does, that's their own made up rule.

This argument is what I would refer to as rather aspiration.

keithclancy

If that is the case then its fairly easy to make a complaint as people have done for the Weed Pass in the Netherlands and various other topics.

http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/your_rights/your_rights_forms_en.htm

The European Court Judgement on the Weed Pass ruled in favor of the Dutch Government only because Cannabis was not freely available in other member states.

I cannot do this though as this situation does not apply to me, it would need to be done by a non resident that the problem had happened to.

It would also mean that Citizens Information are giving out incorrect information.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/alcohol_and_the_law.html

Bepolite

keithclancy wrote: »

If that is the case then its fairly easy to make a complaint as people have done for the Weed Pass in the Netherlands and various other topics.

http://ec.europa.eu/eu_law/your_rights/your_rights_forms_en.htm

The European Court Judgement on the Weed Pass ruled in favor of the Dutch Government only because Cannabis was not freely available in other member states.

I cannot do this though as this situation does not apply to me, it would need to be done by a non resident that the problem had happened to.

Lets leave this it's completely off-topic and two steps removed from the type of legislation we're talking about. I'm sure you're 100% correct in what you're saying.

keithclancy wrote: »

It would also mean that Citizens Information are giving out incorrect information.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal_law/criminal_offences/alcohol_and_the_law.html

Well it wouldn't be the first time they've done that, it happens for several reasons chief of which is rendering things easy to understand. To be fair though if you look at what they say (or rather what they don't) they aren't giving incorrect information.

The central issue is a distinction between being in a pub etc and buying alcohol in an off-license. There are different laws for each, this isn't really the place to have this discussion to be frank. The simple point I was making was that off licenses may have more stringent policies for very good reasons.