Major electricity pylon route planned for Carlow

almighty1

Studies are still in their infancy. You'd wonder that the "studies" performed that found no link may have an ulterior motive. Statistics and such can be massaged to conclude whatever answer is required.

Who knows what things we eat and use nowadays that might be banned in 30 years time.

I'd rather not take any chances.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Ah I see so I provide sound scientific evidence and you decide to not engage with the discussion at all. Excellent.

Edit; Also your attempt to discredit scientific literature by suggesting that the evidence provided has some ulterior motive sounds very much like the ramblings of a conspiracy theorist. If you don't agree with me, fine. But provide evidence, don't just ignore the counter argument that is presented.

Villain

almighty1 wrote: »

A meeting was held in Nurney primary school last night with in excess of 150 people at it. Al least two councillors from the local area were present. Lots of things were discussed but the overriding factor was the potential impact on peoples health.

There are only tentative studies in this area but some of the results are alarming

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/13440.php
http://www.bmj.com/content/330/7503/1290



You still would accept them in your back yard Villain?

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/A_demand_for_undergrounding_of_high_voltage_power_lines_in_Ireland/?copy

Next you will be telling me not to give kids vaccines!

There is no proof that Pylons cause health issues, there are studies that suggest they might and there are studies that suggest they don't but no proof.

I don't have a problem with them, that is my opinion which I am entitled to just as you are entitled to yours.

It's funny how very often people who get involved in these situations can't accept the alternative views.

almighty1

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Ah I see so I provide sound scientific evidence and you decide to not engage with the discussion at all. Excellent.

Edit; Also your attempt to discredit scientific literature by suggesting that the evidence provided has some ulterior motive sounds very much like the ramblings of a conspiracy theorist. If you don't agree with me, fine. But provide evidence, don't just ignore the counter argument that is presented.

I provided evidence also. You chose to ignore. It requires further investigation (which I outlined in my original post) but both yourself and Villian decided to ignore that. There's at least a tentative link between high voltage power lines and leukemia.

Even a tentative link is more than enough reason to oppose these especially if they come so close to ones house.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I addressed your evidence. The authors of the paper say themselves that the statistics are shaky and the results may be due to chance. That is poles apart from the well cited review paper I provided.

Villain

almighty1 wrote: »

I provided evidence also. You chose to ignore. It requires further investigation (which I outlined in my original post) but both yourself and Villian decided to ignore that. There's at least a tentative link between high voltage power lines and leukemia.

Even a tentative link is more than enough reason to oppose these especially if they come so close to ones house.

I didn't ignore anything??

almighty1

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I addressed your evidence. The authors of the paper say themselves that the statistics are shaky and the results may be due to chance. That is poles apart from the well cited review paper I provided.

They mention there is no biological reasoning because finding the cause of any biological disease is inherently difficult.

However the facts are there to read

There is an association between childhood leukaemia and proximity of home address at birth to high voltage power lines, and the apparent risk extends to a greater distance than would have been expected from previous studies. About 4% of children in England and Wales live within 600 m of high voltage lines at birth. If the association is causal, about 1% of childhood leukaemia in England and Wales would be attributable to these lines

Another report from the UK national cancer institute said this

To estimate more accurately the risks of leukemia in children from magnetic fields resulting from power lines, researchers pooled (combined) data from many studies. In one pooled study that combined nine well-conducted studies from several countries, including a study from the NCI, a twofold excess risk of childhood leukemia was associated with exposure to magnetic fields above 0.4 µT

zl1whqvjs75cdy

forget this bit?

though this estimate has considerable statistical uncertainty. There is no accepted biological mechanism to explain the epidemiological results; indeed, the relation may be due to chance or confounding.

Evidence with no statistical backing cannot be taken as true. Although I do accept that at least you are providing decent links, rather than the normal rabble,rabble rabble that goes on here.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. I'm clearly not going to change your mind and those publications certainly aren't going to change mine.

fits

I am undecided on the health effects. I think the EMF from a high voltage line is certainly going to be significant and I certainly would not like to live within 23 metres of one.

The EU FP7 (research programme) evidently decided it was worthy of further investigation. Also Ireland is not like many other EU countries. Our rural areas are still well populated and running these lines through rural Ireland just isn't the same as running it through places like Spain and France which have less populated rural areas.

This is from the funding call this year, I don't know if any projects were awarded under it.

"ENV.2013.6.4-2 Closing gaps of knowledge and reducing exposure to electromagnetic fields (EMF) - FP7-ENV-2013-two-stage. As previous studies have been inconclusive as regards possible health effects of exposure to EMFs, further research should be carried out to better understand the possible mechanisms generating biological effects through the use of novel approaches, as well as to collect and improve exposure and health risk assessment of EMFs, and also to underpin policy development. A large-scale prospective population study - that could reach beyond the EU - could be envisaged to investigate, inter alia, the role of radiofrequency (RF) exposures in cancer risk, neurodegenerative diseases, reproductive problems, behaviour and ageing, and exposure and health effects from intermediate frequency (IF) fields. More data on cumulative personal exposures from various sources should be collected. The research should also propose non technological means to reduce exposure.

Funding scheme: Collaborative Project, The requested EU contribution per project shall not exceed EUR 6 000 000. Up to one proposal can be selected.

Expected impact: Support to EU and national regulatory bodies and policies by improving reliability of research data on potential effects of EMF exposures. Contribution to EU risk assessment and management activities through an improved evaluation of cumulative and integrated personal exposure. Application of novel approaches (e.g. systems biology) to EMF health research. Underpinning of non-technological means to reduce exposures."

Carlos Orange

almighty1 wrote: »

They mention there is no biological reasoning because finding the cause of any biological disease is inherently difficult.

However the facts are there to read

From a 2010 paper by the same people

"Although not statistically significant, the estimate for childhood leukaemia resembles results of comparable studies. Assuming causality, the estimated attributable risk is below one case per year."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20877338

Obviously 'not statistically significant' doesn't mean there isn't something occurring but it does mean it could just be random chance. 1 case a year in 50 million people is probably quite difficult to separate from chance.

SpaceTime

almighty1 wrote: »

They mention there is no biological reasoning because finding the cause of any biological disease is inherently difficult.

However the facts are there to read



Another report from the UK national cancer institute said this

Did anyone consider that the link could be that the lines are likely to be in proximity to nuclear plants and coal burning plants ? They could also be in very heavily industrial or built up areas.

Did active look at the demographics under the lines and how they might link to slightly higher levels of cancer ?

The link really hasn't been proven in any scientific research that I've read.

Also why isn't there increased cancer for line workers who spend their lives in very close proximity to power lines and have been doing so since the late 19th century.

This isn't some kind of new technology. We've had power lines for over a century.

Things to actually be worried about in Ireland are radon gas, smoking and particulate pollution from open fires. Some small and medium towns have very poor air quality as smokey fuels are allowed.

After that your biggest risks would be things like household chemicals and cosmetics.

There would be more of a risk of say developing cancer due to bad diet etc etc

fits

SpaceTime wrote: »

Did anyone consider that the link could be that the lines are likely to be in proximity to nuclear plants and coal burning plants ? They could also be in very heavily industrial or built up areas.

This is also exactly why any link is difficult to prove (as well as disprove), because it is almost impossible to exclude other factors.

Super-Rush

I had to clean up some posts to make viewing the thread easier on the eye.

Ironic considering the thread subject.

Anyway, for details on how to post pictures that make threads easier to read(especially on mobile) see here.

feargale

Morf wrote: »

What is the alternative?

Water mills and rush candles for Carlow.

almighty1

feargale wrote: »

Water mills and rush candles for Carlow.

There is no direct benefit to Carlow. This project is just linking Newbridge -Wexford - Waterford - Cork that will allow export of electricity to England and France .

Eirgrid (a soon to be privatised company - potentially non-Irish) are intent on making profit without any consideration to the people of Ireland. Other than the tax intake and jobs, the good people of Ireland will not benefit from this project.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

almighty1 wrote: »

There is no direct benefit to Carlow. This project is just linking Newbridge -Wexford - Waterford - Cork that will allow export of electricity to England and France .

Eirgrid (a soon to be privatised company - potentially non-Irish) are intent on making profit without any consideration to the people of Ireland. Other than the tax intake and jobs, the good people of Ireland will not benefit from this project.

Why does that matter. The people of Ireland don't benefit from say Google being in Dublin besides the jobs and the tax take. What obligation does a company have to benefit Ireland?

almighty1

Jayda Salmon Bone wrote: »

Why does that matter. The people of Ireland don't benefit from say Google being in Dublin besides the jobs and the tax take. What obligation does a company have to benefit Ireland?

You understand what we are discussing here? Are Google defiling the countryside with gigantic eyesores and placing the publics health, wealth and happiness behind profit?

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I understand perfectly well thanks so you can climb down off that high horse. You didn't mention the eyesore aspect in the post which I quoted. You were discussing how the electricity carried by the proposed masts will not benefit Irish people as it will be exported. I fail to see why this lack of benefit for the Irish people should be a concern of Eirgrid's. Much like the overall benefit of the Irish people is of no concern to Google.

almighty1

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I fail to see why this lack of benefit for the Irish people should be a concern of Eirgrid's. Much like the overall benefit of the Irish people is of no concern to Google.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Of course it should be a concern to Eirgrid. They are the ones running the pylons through peoples property. People might be more understanding if there were proposed benefits to the Irish people (it would be in Eirgrids better interests if they pursued this route). The millions raised by the Meath anti-pylon group is justification of that.

fits

I don't think undergrounding is a magic solution either. That sort of disturbance would endanger the habitats of freshwater pearl mussel for example. Underground lines would also need to be sensitively routed.

almighty1

There will be another protest outside council offices at 1:30PM tomorrow Monday 11th.

SpaceTime

almighty1 wrote: »

There is no direct benefit to Carlow. This project is just linking Newbridge -Wexford - Waterford - Cork that will allow export of electricity to England and France .

To France?
Seriously, pipe-dream stuff!
France is the world's largest electricity exporter with too much generation capacity most of the time. There's absolutely no way we'd have any market there for our very expensive and quite over-priced electricity!

almighty1

SpaceTime wrote: »

To France?
Seriously, pipe-dream stuff!
France is the world's largest electricity exporter with too much generation capacity most of the time. There's absolutely no way we'd have any market there for our very expensive and quite over-priced electricity!

http://www.eirgridprojects.com/projects/gridlink/overview/

Eirgrid wrote:

• Facilitating possible electricity links with either Britain or France.

Carlos Orange

almighty1 wrote: »

http://www.eirgridprojects.com/projects/gridlink/overview/

Absent any other information why do you believe that means export not import?


http://www.eirgridprojects.com/projects/gridlink/benefits/

4. The Grid Link Project will facilitate possible electricity links with either Britain or France

Interconnection will enhance the electricity market by facilitating competition leading to downward pressure on electricity prices and increasing security of supply.

almighty1

psinno wrote: »

Absent any other information why do you believe that means export not import?


http://www.eirgridprojects.com/projects/gridlink/benefits/

4. The Grid Link Project will facilitate possible electricity links with either Britain or France

Interconnection will enhance the electricity market by facilitating competition leading to downward pressure on electricity prices and increasing security of supply.

Which proves the technology is there to put the cable under water. Running from Newbridge to Wexford to Waterford to Cork. Eirgrid are already running an underground connector from Meath to coastline and onto Wales.

Why not underground Newbridge to Bray (or wherever) and then undersea looping around SE coast to all connector sites?

Villain

almighty1 wrote: »

Which proves the technology is there to put the cable under water. Running from Newbridge to Wexford to Waterford to Cork. Eirgrid are already running an underground connector from Meath to coastline and onto Wales.

Why not underground Newbridge to Bray (or wherever) and then undersea looping around SE coast to all connector sites?

Would that not be lot more expensive?

almighty1

Villain wrote: »

Would that not be lot more expensive?

I've no idea to be honest.

AlanS181824

Is there anything really we can do about this though?

road_high

Saw a comment on Sue Nunn's facebook about the line (Phil Hogan was quoted as saying) it's going via Leighlinbridge. I assume then that's not the route down through St. Muillins rather the one through Kilkenny?

almighty1

road_high wrote: »

Saw a comment on Sue Nunn's facebook about the line (Phil Hogan was quoted as saying) it's going via Leighlinbridge. I assume then that's not the route down through St. Muillins rather the one through Kilkenny?

Yes that is the Kilkenny route however if there is any truth in that then surely Phil Hogan wouldn't be publicising it (given that its affecting his constituents)

I cannot find that comment on Sue Nunns facebook page.

Edit : Its on twitter

Pylons again folks! Looks like Leighlinbridge route. Phil Hogan says no choice its going ahead anyway.

Villain

Did people honestly think it wouldn't go ahead?

SV

Villain wrote: »

Did people honestly think it wouldn't go ahead?

Exactly what I said and found hilarious about the whole thing, I'd expect to win the lottery every week for a year more than I'd think that this would not go ahead.

almighty1

Villain wrote: »

Did people honestly think it wouldn't go ahead?

And you think today's comment by a z-list radio presenter makes any difference? Alot of water has to go under the bridge before anything happens.

A Meath group has been fighting their corner for 6 years and Eirgrid still haven't submitted correct documents to An Bord Pleannala.

The Royal Scam

Villain wrote: »

Did people honestly think it wouldn't go ahead?

It will be going ahead. Eirgrid is a semi state and it will be going ahead but as mentioned previously it is that we need to get these underground. This is the start of the process that is expected to take approx 4yrs before they will be installing these 43 meter high pylons. If you wish too make a submission your have until 26 Nov. This will be an important chance for people to give their views and concerns.

The Royal Scam

SV wrote: »

Exactly what I said and found hilarious about the whole thing, I'd expect to win the lottery every week for a year more than I'd think that this would not go ahead.

Have you anything else constructive to add ? I remember you posted a lovely picture on the forum taken from Kileshin about a year ago. Try to imagine that same pic with 43metre high pylons running the whole width of the picture.

almighty1

Royal Scam I think your time is lost on replying to them. Nimbys don't care until they become potential imbys.

SV

The Royal Scam wrote: »

Have you anything else constructive to add ? I remember you posted a lovely picture on the forum taken from Kileshin about a year ago. Try to imagine that same pic with 43metre high pylons running the whole width of the picture.

It honestly wouldn't bother me in the slightest.
Nah nothing constructive, find the whole protesting thing just hilarious is all.

almighty1

SV wrote: »

It honestly wouldn't bother me in the slightest.
Nah nothing constructive, find the whole protesting thing just hilarious is all.

Hilarious? You're easily amused. Are you so passive about all things in life?

Villain

I find it odd that so many people will spend time and energy on pylons NIMBY when there as so many other issues in the country.

SV

almighty1 wrote: »

Hilarious? You're easily amused. Are you so passive about all things in life?

Only about things that don't really matter to me, in the slightest.

I don't think it's easily amused to see people try so hard to do something that just won't have any effect.
It's like looking at one man chipping away at the great wall of china with a toothpick. Just not gonna happen.

almighty1

SV wrote: »

Only about things that don't really matter to me, in the slightest.

I don't think it's easily amused to see people try so hard to do something that just won't have any effect.
It's like looking at one man chipping away at the great wall of china with a toothpick. Just not gonna happen.

There are so many things wrong with that post. First sentence means that you think its hilarious because the pylons won't be affecting you so you can have a laugh at the people who it will be impacting.

Lastly its not just 1 man. Its a massive group of people who are organised and well funded throughout Ireland.
I'm glad such minority groups in history didn't have your outlook. South Africa would still have apartheid, American blacks still wouldn't be allowed into some restaurants, women wouldn't be able to vote etc etc.

Anyway I won't be discussing this with you further, some people are happy with what is in their current line of sight and some people want to see further. Its patently obvious which group you're in.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Are we really comparing the protest against electricity pylons with the apartheid struggles? I mean really?

almighty1

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Are we really comparing the protest against electricity pylons with the apartheid struggles? I mean really?

Jesus Christ :rolleyes:. Where was I comparing? Read my post ....slowly.

SV

almighty1 wrote: »

There are so many things wrong with that post. First sentence means that you think its hilarious because the pylons won't be affecting you so you can have a laugh at the people who it will be impacting.

Lastly its not just 1 man. Its a massive group of people who are organised and well funded throughout Ireland.
I'm glad such minority groups in history didn't have your outlook. South Africa would still have apartheid, American blacks still wouldn't be allowed into some restaurants, women wouldn't be able to vote etc etc.

Anyway I won't be discussing this with you further, some people are happy with what is in their current line of sight and some people want to see further. Its patently obvious which group you're in.

It wouldn't affect me if they plonked one through my bathroom, apart from having to navigate a few pieces of metal.
the thing I think is hilarious btw is that the protestors think this is going to do anything.

lol, yes you're definitely the same kind of minority group, come on! Unjust and violating human rights vs not wanting to see pylons.

racso1975

Meeting tonight in Newtown national school for anybody interested. starts at 8pm

road_high

SV wrote: »

It wouldn't affect me if they plonked one through my bathroom, apart from having to navigate a few pieces of metal.
the thing I think is hilarious btw is that the protestors think this is going to do anything.

lol, yes you're definitely the same kind of minority group, come on! Unjust and violating human rights vs not wanting to see pylons.

Total agree. This mass hysteria about it is out of control.
Que quoting various studies that show some spuriuos link between the lines and cancer/mass deaths

Seanachai

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

http://www.eirgridprojects.com/media/Grid%20Link%201km%20Feasible%20Corridor%20Options%20Map%201%20of%206.pdf

Can you count the number of one offs on this map?! The countryside has long been ruined by selfish one off development.

Living on a small island with limited space for housing means that we are unlikely to have the type of open countryside that they have on the continent or even in parts of the UK. We should limit the size and design of the houses however , too much bungalow bliss and mcmansions from the boom. Not everybody wants to live in a town or village , some urban people will scoff at this but there is a cultural group of people who are rural and have been living in the countryside for generations , it is their way of life , it's my roots. Who should be allowed to live in the countryside , farmers and the wealthy?. I've a feeling that some of the posters here may either have retreats in the countryside or like to live there , just without the mullahs being in the way.

SpaceTime

If *anywhere* in Europe should have open countryside, it's Ireland.
We've one of the lowest density populations in the EU! We have oodles of space for housing, we just choose to scatter ourselves as far apart as humanly possible, then moan about lack of infrastructure.

The bungalow blitz type development means that we tend to have very, very low density housing absolutely scattered sparsely everywhere rather than proper towns/villages like most of Europe has.

There's only 65 people km2 in Ireland! Only Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Sweden and Finland are less densely populated. We're comparable with Scotland's slightly more dense population of 67 / km2

France 111
The UK has 255.6 / km2
Netherlands 393
Germany 233

fits

SpaceTime wrote: »

If *anywhere* in Europe should have open countryside, it's Ireland.
We've one of the lowest density populations in the EU! We have oodles of space for housing, we just choose to scatter ourselves as far apart as humanly possible, then moan about lack of infrastructure.

Rural dwelling is part of our cultural fabric and always has been. We shouldn't be like anyone else only ourselves. And believe me I am no fan of bungalow blitz or insensitive development.

I wonder what the countryside was like pre famine and with a population of 8 million sometimes..

Carlos Orange

fits wrote: »

I wonder what the countryside was like pre famine and with a population of 8 million sometimes..

I image the population shift is nothing compared to the technology shift. The countryside only got electricity about 60 years ago.