Raising Pagan kids in Ireland.

Hyphy

Hullo,

My husband and I are looking to relocate from the US to somewhere in the EU after we finish our degrees in May of 2016. My husband is DEAD SET on Ireland. We both have family roots there and we are both excited about the prospect of living in such a historically interesting place.

However, we are pagan, and raising our little girl, who will be about 4 by that time, as such. I am very concerned about raising her pagan in what seems to be a more "Catholic world". Most of the state schools are associated with some sort of religion, and I have read that they are required to give 2.5 hours religious education weekly. This is not something I am used to, being from the US. I don't have any objection to her learning about every religion, but I also worry about how she will be perceived or treated for our beliefs.

Does anyone here have experience or advice that they can give me about this? I really have no idea even what to ask, because this situation is so different than my own experience.

OU812

Look for an "educate together" school. They're non-religious, so she won't learn anything on any religion. Any "State" school is going to have a religious influence as the local priest is normally on the board.

Unfortunately they all spend more time on religion than on stuff like math or science.

Some state schools will allow your child to sit out the religion class if that's your choosing.

there's a growing Atheist base, but not so many pagans around. Although we were all pagan before the catholics took over.

Hyphy

Well, no matter if they spend time on religion, she will still get a better education than she would if we stay in the area we are now! We currently live in an area where the school systems are the worst in the US. The US isn't exactly up there in the world rankings as a top educator anyway. I have been in classrooms where they aren't even teaching our own country's history correctly.

I have read some on the Educate Together schools, and they seem very hard to get into. I have even heard of people signing their kids up for the schools when they are born! To me this sounds insane, but I guess there is no catchment system there?

Hopefully we will be able to find a group of pagans with kiddos so she will not feel so "odd man out".

Morag

Traditionally cachement areas for schools are parish boundaries so ET schools don't work via them.
They are the fastest growing type of school at present, you can check out where they have schools and were they are planning new ones here. http://www.educatetogether.ie/our-schools

Pagan communities vary depending on where abouts in the country you are, I have kids myself and there were some at Felile Droiachta last weekend, in prams and slings. So there is community out there it's a case of getting to know people. There is a lot more of us then people think

Hyphy

We are currently in the "Deep south" of the US and we have been surprised at how many Pagans we have found. It is good to know that there is catchment, so at least she will be able to go to a closer school. I had nightmarish visions of traveling around a city trying to find a school for her. Probably a bit dramatic.

Tabnabs

OU812 wrote: »

Look for an "educate together" school. They're non-religious, so she won't learn anything on any religion. Any "State" school is going to have a religious influence as the local priest is normally on the board.

Unfortunately they all spend more time on religion than on stuff like math or science.

Some state schools will allow your child to sit out the religion class if that's your choosing.

there's a growing Atheist base, but not so many pagans around. Although we were all pagan before the catholics took over.

This is incorrect. ET are a multi-denominational school. The children learn about all world religions and there is no one religion placed about any others in terms of importance. All children in public education must have "religious" education on a weekly basis.

ET have a first come first served policy for enrolment and hence children being signed up as young as possible. Because one sibling is in the school already it is not guaranteed that the other will also get a place.

ET schools would be (in general) very welcoming of pagan parents and you may be able to talk to the class about your religion (as other parents may also).

Spending time on world faiths and spiritual philosophies instead of extra time on maths and science gives a rounded education and not just another work-bot in the making.

CuAnnan

OU812 wrote: »

Unfortunately they all spend more time on religion than on stuff like math or science.

I went to a Salesians school.
My school was directly run by the Catholic Church.
1 class of religion four days a week. The course covered all world religions. Except the one year that class was given by a Priest, it was given in a fairly unbalanced light. We went to a mosque and we went to the Hindu temple in Dublin during TY.
It is my understanding that my experience is the norm, not yours.

OU812 wrote: »

Some state schools will allow your child to sit out the religion class if that's your choosing.

Religion class is gone. It's been replaced with CSPE. Civic, Social and Political Education.

OU812 wrote: »

there's a growing Atheist base, but not so many pagans around. Although we were all pagan before the catholics took over.

Pagan is a relatively meaningless term.
We were pre-Christian Irish before the Catholics came and converted everyone.
They didn't take over.
You really need to work on your language.

Morag

CuAnnan wrote: »

Religion class is gone. It's been replaced with CSPE. Civic, Social and Political Education.

Not in primary schools they must do 30mins a day and certainly not in most secondary schools. Religion is a topic for the Jr Cert (state exam at 15/16) and even in schools which do not have it for the Jr cert will have their own Religious program.

CuAnnan

Morag wrote: »

Not in primary schools they must do 30mins a day and certainly not in most secondary schools. Religion is a topic for the Jr Cert (state exam at 15/16) and even in schools which do not have it for the Jr cert will have their own Religious program.

I stand corrected.

Chain_reaction

CuAnnan wrote: »

Religion class is gone. It's been replaced with CSPE. Civic, Social and Political Education.
.

You're incorrect, CSPE did not replace religion class in schools. Religion is taught at exam level and most secondary schools will make it mandatory as part of their curriculum up until the junior cert. When I had to do it the course was based on the worlds major religions which makes it actually quite interesting to study.

I went to a catholic girls school, when we did sex education in pastoral care they were required to leave out anything to do with contraception but it was covered in the junior cert biology course.

lorry2

hi HYPHY

i am pagan and have my child in a galescoil, which is a school where everything is taught through Irish,
i have recintly talked to the principle of this school on the matter of religion, and i have found that ,as ireland is becoming a
more muliti national, multi faith country , that techers and principle are very open to listening to parents and the needs of the children atending there schools
so i wouldn't worry about your how your child will be viewed , even though most state schools will be of a certain religion, the main focus is on the childeren
and helping them get the most out of there time in primery school.
my child will be in communin class next year, but she will not be making it as we are pagan, but the principal has assured me that she will do everything in her power to make sure my child is not made feel left out or uncomfortable because of it .
my advise is when you find an area you like go to the schools near you and talk to the principles you may be supprised at how open they are.

Malcolm.

When did you decide to indoctrinate your child into your Pagan religion, why would you not let her decide ?

gctest50

CuAnnan wrote: »

My school was directly run by the Catholic Church.
Pagan is a relatively meaningless term.

So - how should I go about asking my mates missus about how the bit of paganism is going ?

CuAnnan wrote: »

We were pre-Christian Irish before the Catholics came

Just the old Christian superiority showing
- it's like saying we were the pre-iPhone Irish before Apple started shipping here.

CuAnnan wrote: »

and converted everyone.

Was there cake n buns ? If I missed out on them I'm not happy

Dublin Red Devil

First of all I wouldn't use the word Pagan here. The word you are looking for is Athiest. And I believe growing up in an open minded, progressive, secular household would be emotionally beneficial to their development.

Malcolm.

Hyphy wrote: »

Hullo,

My husband and I are looking to relocate from the US to somewhere in the EU after we finish our degrees in May of 2016. My husband is DEAD SET on Ireland. We both have family roots there and we are both excited about the prospect of living in such a historically interesting place.

By all means do a tour of the EU, but don't decide for good until you've lived here a bit. Many of us can't wait to get out of here, and your ancestors succeeded in doing so, to give their descendent a better life and a chance of equality, equal opportunities and advancement away from Ireland. Religion in schools is the least of your problems. Along with the weather, centuries of nepotism, sectarianism, nationalism, ingrained corruption, sexual abuse, and cute hoorism is not so historically interesting when you live in the middle of it and its legacy. Not meaning to do a downer, you're very welcome to come and live here, just hate to see you duped with green tinted specs.

lorry2

Malcolm. wrote: »

When did you decide to indoctrinate your child into your Pagan religion, why would you not let her decide ?

to answer your question my child is 7 she doesn't know her own mind on religion and i will not stnd in church and vow to raise her in the christen faith when i don't believe it. for me that insulsts my child, myself the preist and everyone else who belive and follow the roman chatlioic faith, my daughter is free to choose when she is old enough and has looked and understood other faiths.

Malcolm.

lorry2 wrote: »

to answer your question my child is 7 she doesn't know her own mind on religion and i will not stnd in church and vow to raise her in the christen faith when i don't believe it. for me that insulsts my child, myself the preist and everyone else who belive and follow the roman chatlioic faith, my daughter is free to choose when she is old enough and has looked and understood other faiths.

Glad to hear that bit, so why are you raising her and indoctrinating her into a Pagan religion instead ?

You've posted in the Pagan religion forum. Why any religion ?

Why not let her decide if she is a Pagan or an Atheist when she is old enough ?

Do you understand the difference between Pagan and Atheist ?

iPink

Malcolm. wrote: »

Glad to hear that bit, so why are you raising her and indoctrinating her into a Pagan religion instead ?

You've posted in the Pagan religion forum. Why any religion ?

Why not let her decide if she is a Pagan or an Atheist when she is old enough ?

Do you understand the difference between Pagan and Atheist ?

This is rediculous... How do you know that she is indoctrinating her child? ?

I am an ordained Pagan Priestess & my daughter comes with me whenever I go to ceremonies or festivals etc I answer any questions she might ask me

Her father is Muslim & he tries to force her to pray etc which she hates but I encourage her to keep an open mind

She goes to an Catholic school & sings religious songs in the choir which she enjoys. She likes the Parish Priest & says he seems to be a kind man but takes what he says with a pinch of salt!
The school are very good about her differences & never make her feel left out.

We often talk about all this & she said to me... at the end of the day Mum it's all the same... all Gods/Goddess are as one. We talk about respecting all religions. I am very proud of her views

She comes with me when I go places (where appropiate) irrespective of whether they are to do with religion or not. .. because I'm her mother & that's how I look after her! She actually really enjoys it... if she didn't I would certainly never force her to come!

By the way- the term Pagan simply means Country People... it comes from the Latin Pagani which meant the people living in the county outside the city walls... presumably practising rites of the land, celebrating nature, following the seasons, the sun & moon etc

My own beliefs are a bit more specific than that but I'm still happy to call myself a Celtic Pagan (as defined above) with no need to define it further unless I choose to!!

Athiesm has absolutely nothing to do with Paganism & I'm not sure why it's even being brought into this discussion! !

CuAnnan

iPink wrote: »

This is rediculous... How do you know that she is indoctrinating her child? ?

Definition. That's what indoctrination is.

iPink wrote: »

I am an ordained Pagan Priestess

With no governing body to provide a coherent standardised set of ethics and principles, that statement is meaningless.
Who ordained you and why should that ordination have any bearing on the discussion?

iPink wrote: »

By the way- the term Pagan simply means Country People... it comes from the Latin Pagani which meant the people living in the county outside the city walls... presumably practising rites of the land, celebrating nature, following the seasons, the sun & moon etc

This is pretty much all wrong.
Etymology is not definition. The word "pagan" in the English language is not the same as the word "paganus" in the Latin, despite the latter being the root of the former.
The "presumably" part is actually just personal opinion with no supporting evidence.
You may as well have said "presumably all time lords with eight tardises each" for all of the supporting evidence.
The word pagan, in English, means an adherant to a faith that is not one of the main five.
Unless you are going to maintain that you only use words as they were in their root language.
And do you really think that your post history would survive being corrected for using common meaning instead of etymological source?

iPink wrote: »

Athiesm has absolutely nothing to do with Paganism & I'm not sure why it's even being brought into this discussion! !

Why shouldn't it be?

iPink

Wow so much hostility and so quick to pull my post to pieces!! :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by iPink
This is rediculous... How do you know that she is indoctrinating her child? ?

CuAnnan wrote: »

Definition. That's what indoctrination is.

I am well aware what indoctrination means but here is a definition for you anyway from Oxford online;

'Teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically:'

I still fail to see anywhere in the Op's posts where she claims to or gives any evidence as to indoctrinating her child...

Originally Posted by iPink
I am an ordained Pagan Priestess

CuAnnan wrote: »

With no governing body to provide a coherent standardised set of ethics and principles, that statement is meaningless.
Who ordained you and why should that ordination have any bearing on the discussion?

It may be meaningless to you but not to me. I am Ordained to the FOI (Fellowship Of Isis) recognised as a World Faith by The Parliment of World Religions in 1993... look it up!
Here is the Manifesto: http://www.fellowshipofisis.com/manifesto.html
And here is information as to ethics: http://www.fellowshipofisis.com/ethics.html

As to who actually ordained me, that is none of your business!

It has bearing on this discussion because I chose to make it so being part of the discussion and am perhaps trying to establish some knowledge base in my attempt to actually address the OP's initial query!

Originally Posted by iPink
By the way- the term Pagan simply means Country People... it comes from the Latin Pagani which meant the people living in the county outside the city walls... presumably practising rites of the land, celebrating nature, following the seasons, the sun & moon etc

CuAnnan wrote: »

This is pretty much all wrong.
Etymology is not definition. The word "pagan" in the English language is not the same as the word "paganus" in the Latin, despite the latter being the root of the former.
The "presumably" part is actually just personal opinion with no supporting evidence.
You may as well have said "presumably all time lords with eight tardises each" for all of the supporting evidence.
The word pagan, in English, means an adherant to a faith that is not one of the main five.
Unless you are going to maintain that you only use words as they were in their root language.
And do you really think that your post history would survive being corrected for using common meaning instead of etymological source?

You can argue etymology all you like (feels a bit like trolling to me!) but this is certainly not 'all wrong'...

I presume (again as I don't know for sure I am using this term!) you are counting Hindu and Buddhism in with the 'main 5'? If so, then that is interesting as many people actually consider Hindu as a 'Pagan' religion given it's Polytheistic nature and again many do not consider Buddhism to be a religion at all (more a philosophy) as it doesn't actually have a 'God' as such...

My meaning here being that these topics are highly objective and that the roots of words DO have an influence on the meaning of them... The term Pagan in itself as you describe it is so vast and umbrella-like that it is pretty much meaningless to anyone who actually practices it!!

Yes, perhaps I AM being a bit presumptuous (I freely admit it with the use of the word!) but am basing it on many many years of experience and study of the 'Pagan' religion... I fully admit there is no supporting evidence, hence the use of the word presumably!!

And yes I do 'really think that my post history would survive being corrected for using common meaning instead of etymological source' as this is a discussion rather than a Thesis... and I fail to see how my post history comes into it (which is, by the way higher than your own???)

Originally Posted by iPink View Post
Athiesm has absolutely nothing to do with Paganism & I'm not sure why it's even being brought into this discussion! !

CuAnnan wrote: »

Why shouldn't it be?

Because the discussion is about Paganism or more accurately the OP asking for advice on how Paganism/Religion works here in Irish schools...
The OP describes herself as Pagan and I don't see any evidence in any of her posts to show otherwise, nor would I presume to think I know her own practices better than she does herself, in fact she freely states that she is happy for her child to learn about other religions.
Another poster on here states that she is Atheist which in my view is incorrect and unsubstantiated... presumably :cool: the OP would have posted in the Atheist forum rather than here if she considered herself an Athiest!!

I hope I have addressed your questions to your satisfaction? If so, can we get back to the topic of the post at hand??:rolleyes:

CuAnnan

iPink wrote: »

Wow so much hostility and so quick to pull my post to pieces!! :rolleyes:

Do not claim to understand my emotional status. It really is infuriating. There was absolutely zero hostility in my post. Just a clinical dissection of your position.

iPink wrote: »

I am well aware what indoctrination means but here is a definition for you anyway from Oxford online;

I didn't need you to quote it for me.
I went to Oxford, Collins and Meriam Webster before correcting you on that.

iPink wrote: »

I still fail to see anywhere in the Op's posts where she claims to or gives any evidence as to indoctrinating her child...

When you raise people in a faith, you are indoctrinating them.
Per the definition you gave.

iPink wrote: »

It may be meaningless to you but not to me. I am Ordained to the FOI (Fellowship Of Isis) recognised as a World Faith by The Parliment of World Religions in 1993... look it up!

Do you know who and what the Parliament of World Religions are?
I know who both the FoI and the Parliament of World Religions are.
They are both self appointed and self regulated.
And citing a mail-order ordination process to support your position does nothing to lend it credibility.
A friend of a friend, to use the common parlance {as there is at least one more connection there, if I recall correctly} had their cat ordained into the Corellians. I'm fairly certain the same could be done for the FoI.

iPink wrote: »

As to who actually ordained me, that is none of your business!

It is when you try to leverage your ordination as an appeal to authority.
I too can throw around titles.
But none of them mean a tap until such a point in time as they are peer reviewed.

iPink wrote: »

It has bearing on this discussion because I chose to make it so being part of the discussion and am perhaps trying to establish some knowledge base in my attempt to actually address the OP's initial query!

Until such a point in time as you are willing to substantiate your claim by something more than "I underwent mail order ordination" you are no more capable of providing a knowledge base than I am, with my Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster ordination.

iPink wrote: »

You can argue etymology all you like (feels a bit like trolling to me!) but this is certainly not 'all wrong'...

You are the one arguing etymology. So if it's trolling, you're the one doing it.
And it is all wrong. You attempted to replace the definition of a word with its etymology.

iPink wrote: »

I presume you are counting Hindu and Buddhism in with the 'main 5'?

Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Bhuddism.

iPink wrote: »

My meaning here being that these topics are highly objective and that the roots of words DO have an influence on the meaning of them...

Are you sure you don't mean "subjective" instead of "objective"?
Because if it's objective that you mean, then you are linguistically wrong.
And if it's subjective, then you are ontologically wrong.
I would just like to figure out what particular kind of wrong you are before I explain why you are wrong.

iPink wrote: »

The term Pagan in itself as you describe it is so vast and umbrella-like that it is pretty much meaningless to anyone who actually practices it!!

There is no better definition.

iPink wrote: »

but am basing it on many many years of experience and study

I have been studying for 18 years now.
Various traditions to various degrees.

iPink wrote: »

the 'Pagan' religion...

There is no pagan religion.
There are religions which are pagan.
There are even neopagan religions.
And non of them is "the" neopagan religion.

iPink wrote: »

And yes I do 'really think that my post history would survive being corrected for using common meaning instead of etymological source' as this is a discussion rather than a Thesis...

iPink, this post wouldn't survive it.
We almost never use the obscure etymological roots of words save to say to someone "look, I know this one thing you don't so clearly I am more of an expert than you are". It's bad form to attempt to "correct" someone by presenting an etymology as opposed to a definition, mostly because it's linguistically incorrect.

iPink wrote: »

and I fail to see how my post history comes into it (which is, by the way higher than your own???)

Because you attempted to correct someone for something you do.
I was pointing out your nascent hypocrisy and attempting to give you the opportunity to say "I'm sorry, I do use common parlance instead of etymology because I speak Hiberno English and not Classsical Latin".
But if you don't want that life boat, I'll gladly withdraw it.

iPink wrote: »

Because the discussion is about Paganism or more accurately the OP asking for advice on how Paganism/Religion works here in Irish schools...

There are atheist religions, they are not part of the big five, therefore they are pagan.

iPink wrote: »

I hope I have addressed your questions to your satisfaction? If so, can we get back to the topic of the post at hand??:rolleyes:

Not even remotely.:rolleyes:

iPink

CuAnnan wrote: »

Do not claim to understand my emotional status. It really is infuriating. There was absolutely zero hostility in my post. Just a clinical dissection of your position.



I didn't need you to quote it for me.
I went to Oxford, Collins and Meriam Webster before correcting you on that.


When you raise people in a faith, you are indoctrinating them.
Per the definition you gave.


Do you know who and what the Parliament of World Religions are?
I know who both the FoI and the Parliament of World Religions are.
They are both self appointed and self regulated.
And citing a mail-order ordination process to support your position does nothing to lend it credibility.
A friend of a friend, to use the common parlance {as there is at least one more connection there, if I recall correctly} had their cat ordained into the Corellians. I'm fairly certain the same could be done for the FoI.


It is when you try to leverage your ordination as an appeal to authority.
I too can throw around titles.
But none of them mean a tap until such a point in time as they are peer reviewed.


Until such a point in time as you are willing to substantiate your claim by something more than "I underwent mail order ordination" you are no more capable of providing a knowledge base than I am, with my Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster ordination.


You are the one arguing etymology. So if it's trolling, you're the one doing it.
And it is all wrong. You attempted to replace the definition of a word with its etymology.


Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Bhuddism.



Are you sure you don't mean "subjective" instead of "objective"?
Because if it's objective that you mean, then you are linguistically wrong.
And if it's subjective, then you are ontologically wrong.
I would just like to figure out what particular kind of wrong you are before I explain why you are wrong.


There is no better definition.


I have been studying for 18 years now.
Various traditions to various degrees.


There is no pagan religion.
There are religions which are pagan.
There are even neopagan religions.
And non of them is "the" neopagan religion.


iPink, this post wouldn't survive it.
We almost never use the obscure etymological roots of words save to say to someone "look, I know this one thing you don't so clearly I am more of an expert than you are". It's bad form to attempt to "correct" someone by presenting an etymology as opposed to a definition, mostly because it's linguistically incorrect.


Because you attempted to correct someone for something you do.
I was pointing out your nascent hypocrisy and attempting to give you the opportunity to say "I'm sorry, I do use common parlance instead of etymology because I speak Hiberno English and not Classsical Latin".
But if you don't want that life boat, I'll gladly withdraw it.


There are atheist religions, they are not part of the big five, therefore they are pagan.


Not even remotely.:rolleyes:

How dare you be so insulting as to call my life path & calling a 'mail order ordination' , you have absolutely NO knowledge of what you speak or what is required to obtain it!
You are ignorant, condescending & your air of superiority is frankly appaling.
Yes I am well aware what the Parliment of World Religions is.

Why you would even wish to 'clinically dissect my position' is beyond me unless you really have nothing better to do than try to make yourself look important to strangers on the internet.
You obviously get off on trying to insult, inflame & antagonise other people from a position of anonymity, also known as trolling.

Well done on your 18 years of 'study'... This has been a way of life for me now for a LOT longer than that.

I need no life boat from you & refuse to engage with you anymore ... but I'm sure you will have some smart & whitty retort to that too!!

How any of this serves to help the OP's original query, I have no idea... Mods...???

Morag

Best thing you can do is report posts you want the mods to have a look at.

This forum is about paganism as per the charter, anything which shuts down discussion is pointless imo.

iPink

Morag wrote: »

Best thing you can do is report posts you want the mods to have a look at.

This forum is about paganism as per the charter, anything which shuts down discussion is pointless imo.

Absolutely agree Morag & have also reported it

CuAnnan

iPink wrote: »

How dare you be so insulting as to call my life path & calling a 'mail order ordination' , you have absolutely NO knowledge of what you speak or what is required to obtain it!

Because, regardless of what you underwent to obtain it, according to the Foundation of Isis themselves, that is how it is logistically organised.

iPink wrote: »

You are ignorant, condescending & your air of superiority is frankly appaling.

I am condescending, I will grant you, however the other two are you reading into my post tone that is not present.

iPink wrote: »

Why you would even wish to 'clinically dissect my position' is beyond me unless you really have nothing better to do than try to make yourself look important to strangers on the internet.

Because that's precisely what you did to Malcolm.
You used an etymological origin to correct someone, rather than trying to discuss the matter you attempted to one up.

iPink wrote: »

You obviously get off on trying to insult, inflame & antagonise other people from a position of anonymity, also known as trolling.

I have already once asked you politely to refrain from projecting emotions onto my posts. I will ask you this once more only.
I have not insulted you, I have undermined your authority as a priest because you leveraged it to lend credence to your support.

iPink wrote: »

Well done on your 18 years of 'study'...

For someone who is condemning me for my supposedly insulting you, your way of life and being antagonising from a position of anonymity; you do a lot of it.
"study", "supposedly". If I may borrow from an older book, "Look not to the mote in your brother's eye when thou hast a beam in thine own".

iPink wrote: »

I'm sure you will have some smart & whitty retort to that too!!

Not really.

iPink wrote: »

How any of this serves to help the OP's original query, I have no idea... Mods...???

Intellectual integrity is really important in the pagan "community".
If I, as a Gaelic Recon, cannot question the validity of your priesthood, then how can you claim to speak on behalf of "the pagan religion".
Which you repeatedly do.
Would you like to set the cultural grounds from which I draw precedent for this challenge to you?