Tipping

DebDynamite

MadsL wrote: »

I would hope the wait staff share tips with the kitchen - the norm anywhere I worked. I sometimes make a point of going to the window if it is an open kitchen to congratulate the chef if the meal impressed.

I can assure you that's not the norm here. Perhaps the next time you eat out in Ireland you should slip the chef a tenner too, rather than a pat on the back?

Afterall, why should the waiting staff get the tips for just taking your order, bringing the food to your table and taking back the empty plates, when the chefs and kitchen porters are the ones sweating their backsides off in a highly pressurised environment to serve you great food?

In many, many cases, the waiting staff are coming out with more money than the kitchen staff. Do you think that's right?

IvySlayer

If a waiter went into the kitchen and told the chef they were doing a grand job, they'd probably whack him over the head with a roll of tin foil.

A tip is a voluntary. A service charge is not compulsory to pay. If I want to leave a tip I will do so of my own choosing.

If I had a good experience I will leave a tip, usually around 10%. You can leave restaurants in Ireland without a tip, whereas Americans will chase you up the street if you don't leave one.

Why do you tip in a restaurant but not in fast food?

MadsL

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

The Spanish don't tip and 4 years here, you start adapting their ways but this is one thing I simply can't adapt to. Waiters here earn about 600 a month working full time (and full time in Spain basically means you work as many hours as they want you to), so if anyone needs tips, it's them. I don't tip for service because it's usually awful but I tip because they need it and if I can afford to eat in a restaurant, I can afford a 10% tip.

...it is no co-incidence that Spanish waiters have a stereotypical awful reputation.

I think the reasoning behind it is that everyone earns ****ty wages here, so why should they get more for simply doing what they're already paid for. I don't agree.

Good, neither do I.

Lewis Savory Clergy wrote: »

Oh where to begin? Firstly this is a discussion on boards.ie not .USA.

The last tipping thread was about tipping in a Western hotel in China. Boards has maybe 20% of its members living outside of Ireland. Stop being so parochial.

Tips are not in Ireland designed to fill the void between a living wage and what an employer pays. We actually pay our workers in this country!

You might have missed the part where I worked in Ireland for 15 years, part of which in the hospitality industry.

Busy restaurants that don't take reservations?

Yep. This discussion started talking about Capt America's. A restaurant that is busy and and guess what...Captain Americas only take bookings for parties of 6 or more.

Well I can assure you they wouldn't last long here if they seated people who arrived after others but had bribed the staff for a table.

Bribed. Such emotive language. You'd never notice frankly, happens all the time in restaurants.

An English custom? Relevance to here?

A cultural norm that happens in Ireland too, historically and in point of fact.

You want to tell us how the world is run? Cheek. It's run here how we wish to run it and not by american customs.

I'm telling you how a good part of the hospitality industry works across the world, nothing to do with American customs.

During my years in the US I found people uptight about tips and under pressure to tip even when they could not afford it?

You felt under pressure to avail of service that had a cost that you thought was optional, yet is pretty much widely expected as a cultural norm. Perhaps you ought to rethink who is at fault in that scenario. If you cannot afford the tip your shouldn't buy the service. Or do you expect others to fund your way through life?

or where service was dire.

Then don't tip if the service was dire, that's the point.

Tipping post men, hairdresser, binman, grocers.... JUST PAY THEM A WAGE.

Grocers?? Never experienced that. Pay them a wage - in the US you get to choose a figure between 5-20% of the cost of service that YOU pay as part of their wage dependant on their performance. It really isn't a hard concept to grasp. You may not like it, but that forms part of the cost of the service. You bristle at me telling you how things are in parts of the Irish service sector but cannot accept this major part of US life and want it to be like Ireland, ironic much?

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Once again this is not true, might be in America or other places but not here.

I think it is a reasonable expectation in Ireland that people make tips in certain professions, I'd include hairdressers, taxi drivers and people serving in higher end restaurants. The money they make includes tips as a reasonable expectation. I think the major difference is that US servers report their tips as income!

You started off trying to argue service charges were added everywhere in Ireland,

I gave three examples on menus, yes. No-one has been able to show me a menu that states "Service Included" - I'm sure there may be some around Ireland. Dublin restuarants seem to follow more of the US/European norms on service charges.

now you claim tips form part of peoples wages.

I think you are being disingenuous there. I said that tips are not bonuses. Most restaurant owners will have a sense of what servers make in tips/service charges and set wage levels accordingly. I have a major issue with restaurant owners who retain a portion of the service charge for themselves, which is why I would rather see a cash tip added at the end, I just don't trust a lot of places that would add a service charge.

As a previous poster pointed out its not the cultural norms of Ireland.

Utter nonsense, tipping has been a part of good quality service in Ireland for decades, probably back to the start of the English/French custom.

"Wouldn't mind being a waiter in a swell hotel. Tips, evening dress, halfnaked ladies"
Ulysses, James Joyce.

If you want to talk generally about cultural norms of America go to the appropriate forum.

AH is not a regional forum. If you wish to talk about a region go to a regional forum, or report my posts, as you wish...

I'm starting to see now why you got so much grief on "Location based arguments" its because you're refusing to accept things are different here than where you are

.
I'm pointing out the things that are the same based on 15 years living in Ireland, you seem to be having a hard time accepting that.

Which as a general statement about tipping in the service industry in Ireland is simply idiotic. Next time the maitre'd sends a waiter out with an umbrella to shepard me in from my rolls I'll make sure to tip generously.

I'm sure you'll accept there are better restaurants in Ireland than Capt America's. The experience I mention was at a hotel, but in (shock horror) Ireland!

Thats called making sure the customer is satisfied, its either selling an item or recommending one when asked and is already part of any customer service job description. You must have low standard if you think doing your job to any decent degree is going above and beyond and deserves extra payment.

It's doing the job to an excellent standard above the minimum to the benefit of the customer. Now if you want to stiff the waiter for a tip because you think they should be doing that anyway go right ahead. But all you are in fact doing is dragging the level of service down to a basic level. If you don't get rewarded for doing more than the basic, then what's the point? The owner cannot see every action of the waiter, but you can, and reward the service appropriately.

You may feel you have held back the waters of US cultural imperialism once more, but the fact is that waiters have been getting tips in Ireland for generations, and the practice can even be found in Germany dating back to 1509 with a record of a craftsman asking a customer for trinkgeld or "drink money" in German, for an apprentice.

Systemic Risk wrote: »

Masdl, i give up. So many people are explaining to you that they do tip when the service is very good but you keep applying american norms and saying that the tip forms part of the bill.

That's an English/Irish cultural norm in higher end restaurants.

Now you are saying people should not go to restaurants if they cant afford a 15-20% tip.

I didn't say 15-20% now did I? I said if you can't afford the tip, you shouldn't be dining there. Why should the waiter subsidise your night?

I assure you restaurant owners would disagree here and so would servers when the owners start cutting back on their hours due to less custom.

That's an absurd notion, that will just lead to more compulsory service charges, I would much rather pay a tip, than a service charge. But then you get fools who feel it is optional as in leave nothing. That's simply bad manners in my view.

If i were in america i would not go to a restaurant if i couldnt afford the tip because thats the culture there

.
But a high-end restaurant in Ireland is fair game...c'mon, really?

As for calling people tight wads. Maybe cop yourself on a bit. Just because you are doing well it doesnt mean everyone else is.

There are plenty of places where you can get good food without hands on service, however if you want all the benefits of fine dining you should, in my view, see the tip as part of the cost. Deliberately getting a taxi and giving no tip because you cannot afford it is equally rude in my book. Not the taxi drivers fault.

There are plenty of couples in ireland with really low disposable income at the moment who would seriously have to save to allow themselves a dinner and few drinks as a treat. Why should they have to give an extra payment to someone who is already paid and may have more disposable income than them if they cant afford it. That was quite a nasty comment on your part.

It was meant to be truthful, not nasty, but now that's quite a tiny violin you are playing there, are you saying restaurants should waive service charges because people have saved up to go out? What other benefits should people with low disposable income get?

As for my egalitarian view of the world as you put it. I believe in fairness. I know ireland is a lot more equal than america and this may be colouring your views.

Has nothing to do with Ireland vs America, has more to do with the way the service industry works.

You assume that the people you are skipping by tipping the maitre'd just breezed by. Again what if they were lovely and pleasant and couldnt afford to tip him/her before the meal as they only had enough for dinner, wine and 20% tip after the meal.

You need to tune that tiny violin, starting to squeak now..I already said the being nice to the maitre d' isn't necessarily monetary in nature.

Do your elderly parents deserve a seat before theirs?

Deserve? No of course not, but if I have the cop on to be nice to the maitre d' and he decided to seat us first, who are you to complain. We could be old, old customers or personal friends of the owner. It is a private place of business, not a line at the Motor Tax Office.

Actually dont answer that. Im out of this thread.

Nice flounce.

FTA69

Can we drop this notion that tipping isn't a bonus? There is no obligation for a customer to make up any portion of a server's wage. Service in itself the nature of a waiter/barman's job. The same way a plumber gets paid for plumbing, or a mechanic gets paid for fixing; a waiter gets paid for serving. The notion that a publican or restaurant owner factors in tipping in his business costs is also b*llocks; he should factor in tax, rent, utilities, stock etc and also labour costs i.e. the amount he pays his staff.

I spent nearly two years living on minimum wage in London, an awful experience if there ever was one. You work for 50 hours a week and are still classed below the poverty line to the point you're actually eligible for benefits. I used to love getting tips. I was literally f*cked without the £60 odd a week I used to make from them and as such I gave better or priority service to those who'd tip me. Because I had to.

Because I remember how much in the sh*t I was less than a year ago I always tip generously. However, I would have much preferred to be paid a decent living wage as opposed to an exploitative one whereupon I had to scrape in the hope someone would throw me a couple of quid. The company I worked for is one of the biggest pub and restaurant companies in Europe, and yet they paid their staff so little they were eligible for benefits. Slave wages and exploitation are the real issues here, do away with that and then people won't have to be paying percentages of their bill to subsidise and encourage low pay.

krudler

There are plenty of places where you can get good food without hands on service, however if you want all the benefits of fine dining you should, in my view, see the tip as part of the cost. Deliberately getting a taxi and giving no tip because you cannot afford it is equally rude in my book. Not the taxi drivers fault.

This is rubbish, usually a taxi from my house to the city costs 8-9 quid, if the driver is nice I'll usually give him the tenner, if he's a whingebag or moody I won't. Tips should be earned not expected.

MadsL

FTA69 wrote: »

Can we drop this notion that tipping isn't a bonus? There is no obligation for a customer to make up any portion of a server's wage. Service in itself the nature of a waiter/barman's job. The same way a plumber gets paid for plumbing, or a mechanic gets paid for fixing; a waiter gets paid for serving. The notion that a publican or restaurant owner factors in tipping in his business costs is also b*llocks; he should factor in tax, rent, utilities, stock etc and also labour costs i.e. the amount he pays his staff.

Is a call out fee a bonus then?

I spent nearly two years living on minimum wage in London, an awful experience if there ever was one. You work for 50 hours a week and are still classed below the poverty line to the point you're actually eligible for benefits. I used to love getting tips. I was literally f*cked without the £60 odd a week I used to make from them and as such I gave better or priority service to those who'd tip me. Because I had to.

So tips improve service. Ta-da.

Because I remember how much in the sh*t I was less than a year ago I always tip generously. However, I would have much preferred to be paid a decent living wage as opposed to an exploitative one whereupon I had to scrape in the hope someone would throw me a couple of quid. The company I worked for is one of the biggest pub and restaurant companies in Europe, and yet they paid their staff so little they were eligible for benefits. Slave wages and exploitation are the real issues here, do away with that and then people won't have to be paying percentages of their bill to subsidise and encourage low pay.

I agree, staff should be on decent wage, however there used to be a tradition in France that waiters would cover the cost of the maitre d's wages because they would tip him to work there as they made out so well on tips.

I'd fully support decent wages for the service industry in the US - and the problem lies with the lower end rather than the decent level of fine dining and good casual dining. At the upper end I've seen waiters make exceptional money, but as I said before they have worked exceptional hard on their food and wine knowledge and give outstanding service.

Artful_Badger

MadsL wrote: »

.I think it is a reasonable expectation in Ireland that people make tips in certain professions, I'd include hairdressers, taxi drivers and people serving in higher end restaurants. The money they make includes tips as a reasonable expectation. I think the major difference is that US servers report their tips as income!

There is a reasonable expectation that some tips come with some jobs such as service staff (never heard of tipping hair dressers) but is does not comprise any part of a wage which is what you are claiming. You are just simply wrong.

The reason its declared in the states I'd assume is precisely because it does comprise part of a person wage and it is seen as regular income rather than a an irregular gift as it is seen here.

Here (Ireland) it is a cash bonus or gift voluntarily given to someone on occasion. There (America) it is an expected and socially obligatory payment made to cover part of persons wage in certain jobs.

MadsL

krudler wrote: »

This is rubbish, usually a taxi from my house to the city costs 8-9 quid, if the driver is nice I'll usually give him the tenner, if he's a whingebag or moody I won't. Tips should be earned not expected.

That's how he earns the tip.

I never said tips should be automatic.

You are missing the point. You wouldn't get the taxi if you could only afford €9 and no more. You'd expect to give in the tenner. He should only get €9 if he's moody fecker.

Artful_Badger

MadsL wrote: »

That's how he earns the tip.

I never said tips should be automatic.

You are missing the point. You wouldn't get the taxi if you could only afford €9 and no more. You'd expect to give in the tenner. He should only get €9 if he's moody fecker.

You wouldnt get a taxi if you could afford the price of a taxi ? I think you've confused yourself again here and you think America IS the world. Its not. In Ireland anywhere if you want a taxi for 9 euro and all you have is 9 euro then you get a taxi and you pay 9 euro.

He should only expect what he's charging. Whatever anyone else wants to give on top of that is a bonus.

MadsL

Artful_Badger wrote: »

There is a reasonable expectation that some tips come with some jobs such as service staff (never heard of tipping hair dressers) but is does not comprise any part of a wage which is what you are claiming. You are just simply wrong.

Facepalm. I think you need go have a chat with some hairdressers, there may even be one along shortly. Hairdressers have been tipped in Ireland as long as I can remember.

As to the wage portion, I'm saying it makes up part of what they live on, not part of the payslip. Can you try and see what I'm actually saying, not what you think I'm saying.

(God, I hate these tipping threads, I'm staying out of the next one)

The reason its declared in the states I'd assume is precisely because it does comprise part of a person wage and it is seen as regular income rather than a an irregular gift as it is seen here.

It is assessed as an assumption, you can get it reduced if you turn in your records.

Here (Ireland) it is a cash bonus or gift voluntarily given to someone on occasion.

Totally disagree. Tipping has been a part of fine dining culture in Ireland since Oscar Wilde's time.

There (America) it is an expected and socially obligatory payment made to cover part of persons wage in certain jobs.

Hairdressers in Ireland make a portion of their wage from tips, as do taxi drivers. I'd say tipping your hairdresser is "an expected and socially obligatory payment".

FTA69

Is a call out fee a bonus then?

No comparison at all. It's his overtime rate usually if you call him and need him immediately. Serving is the intrinsic nature of a service job i.e. the thing they get paid a wage for.

At the upper end I've seen waiters make exceptional money, but as I said before they have worked exceptional hard on their food and wine knowledge and give outstanding service.

When I did door-work in Ireland I worked in a high-price cocktail bar. The main cocktail barman there was a Spanish guy called Javier who had won international competitions etc. The company paid him €17 an hour to make cocktails, a huge wage for any barman in Cork. In other words, the company recognised his skill and talent and rewarded him with a suitable wage for his abilities. This is the way it should be, the company bearing the cost for their staff and not the customer.

Also I think Irish barstaff in general are actually brilliant. They have f*ck all product knowledge (because Ireland doesn't have the same range as the US or well, anywhere unfortunately) but they're very fast, can do multiple serves and are generally on the ball. If you think Irish barstaff are sh*t you'd probably lose your life if you drank in London.

osarusan

MadsL wrote: »

That's how he earns the tip.

I never said tips should be automatic.

You are missing the point. You wouldn't get the taxi if you could only afford €9 and no more. You'd expect to give in the tenner. He should only get €9 if he's moody fecker.

Contradicting yourself here.

DebDynamite

MadsL, you never replied to my post below:

DebDynamite wrote: »

I can assure you that's not the norm here. Perhaps the next time you eat out in Ireland you should slip the chef a tenner too, rather than a pat on the back?

Afterall, why should the waiting staff get the tips for just taking your order, bringing the food to your table and taking back the empty plates, when the chefs and kitchen porters are the ones sweating their backsides off in a highly pressurised environment to serve you great food?

In many, many cases, the waiting staff are coming out with more money than the kitchen staff. Do you think that's right?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

/Madsl

Stop being so parochial.

That was my point to you. Stop trying to assert that the world should operate under american norms


As for your example of Captain Americas, I'd gladly tip a maitre'd who held an umbrella as I was led to my car when leaving there.

Come in to the real world for a few minutes. It's actually quite nice here.

MadsL

A Rogue Hobo wrote: »

Tipping seems to becoming much more of a "expected" thing to do these days. Mate of mine was a waiter for a few years, used to get annoyed if he got a low tip if the bill was large "because we live off of tips" when he was earning more than minimum wage anyways plus tips on top of that. I felt it was a horrible opinion to have to expect a tip from everyone, if someone tips then great, but to be annoyed about not getting tips seems pretty entitled to me. Most waiters aren't going to any more effort than any good salesman in any half decent shop are, so why is it only waiters should be tipped? Never understood the logic.

Do salespeople get commission? Do they make more commissions the better the price they sell at?

So...salespeople get rewarded for being good at their jobs? Just like waiters get rewarded for being good at their jobs.

I appreciate your friends frustration, and have been there. Giving great service only to have some knob leave €2 "because it's not America, like". I honestly feel some people are using America as an excuse not to tip. As I said, tipping in Ireland goes back before American tipping, which at the time of the American Civil War was frowned upon in this Revolutionary society.

krudler

MadsL wrote: »

That's how he earns the tip.

I never said tips should be automatic.

You are missing the point. You wouldn't get the taxi if you could only afford €9 and no more. You'd expect to give in the tenner. He should only get €9 if he's moody fecker.

Eh yeah I would? fixed price cab it's not on a meter.

MadsL

osarusan wrote: »

Contradicting yourself here.

How so? If you get into a taxi with only €9 for a €9 fare how can you tip if he gives a good service?

FTA69

MadsL wrote: »

Do salespeople get commission? Do they make more commissions the better the price they sell at?

So...salespeople get rewarded for being good at their jobs? Just like waiters get rewarded for being good at their jobs.

No they get rewarded for making concrete sales. It's like a form of semi-subcontracting. Your analogies just don't make sense mate.

MadsL

DebDynamite wrote: »

MadsL, you never replied to my post below:

I'm not going to comment of all kitchens, but all places I have worked the kitchen took 3% of pooled tips.

I appreciate there are different standards in different places.

MadsL

FTA69 wrote: »

No they get rewarded for making concrete sales. It's like a form of semi-subcontracting. Your analogies just don't make sense mate.

They sell concrete?

Are a waiters sales not also concrete (upselling wine, bottled water etc?) upping the tab, ups the tip.

suicide_circus

Im back from the states a few weeks. the worst aspect of a great trip was the forced tipping particularly as, in general, the service was some of most lackluster and occasionally downright crap customer service I have ever received.

MadsL

Lewis Savory Clergy wrote: »

/Madsl

Stop being so parochial. /QUOTE]

That was NY point to you. Stop trying BG to assert that the world should operate under american norms

Sorry, I totally your whole post.
Tipping is an English custom. I believe I've said that several times.

As for your example of Captain Americas, I'd gladly tip a maitre'd who held an umbrella as I was led to my car when leaving there.

Good. As you should.

Come in to the real world for a few minutes. It's actually quite nice here.

I don't much like the service levels in your world. Do you have a point to make?

MadsL

suicide_circus wrote: »

Im back from the states a few weeks. the worst aspect of a great trip was the forced tipping particularly as, in general, the service was some of most lackluster and occasionally downright crap customer service I have ever received.

errr...where?

Perhaps you should stop eating at Denny's.

DebDynamite

MadsL wrote: »

I'm not going to comment of all kitchens, but all places I have worked the kitchen took 3% of pooled tips.

I appreciate there are different standards in different places.

3% is not really a lot, is it? Why don't you go and tip them personally to make up the shortfall? When you go to a restaurant, it's usually for the good food, right? So do you believe the waiting staff should earn more money than then ones actually cooking the food?

MadsL

krudler wrote: »

Eh yeah I would? fixed price cab it's not on a meter.

Not a euro for your taxi driver, even if he hops out and holds the door for you.

How nice.

Artful_Badger

MadsL wrote: »

Facepalm. I think you need go have a chat with some hairdressers, there may even be one along shortly. Hairdressers have been tipped in Ireland as long as I can remember.

Get my hair cut regularly, as does everyone I know and we all pay the advertised price. If some women pay extra for long treatments or whatever that their business but to say its an expected part of a hairdressers wage is shockingly ignorant or how things work here.

As to the wage portion, I'm saying it makes up part of what they live on, not part of the payslip. Can you try and see what I'm actually saying, not what you think I'm saying.

And not for the first time in this thread you are trying to weasel out of statements you made. The problem isnt me its you making false statement such as "Unless otherwise stated on a menu the service charge is not included in the cost of the food" "Tips make up a portion of service staffs wage". If you say one thing but conveniently mean something else when called on it thats you're own fault.

In either case its not dependable income so it doesnt even form a part of a persons expected income. Its only money in their pocket when it is given to them as a bonus. They either make a nice bit of EXTRA cash or a not but it doesnt make a portion of their wage or expected income.

(God, I hate these tipping threads, I'm staying out of the next one)

I'd hazard a guess and say if you did it might go a tad more smoothly as it may be kept to discussion abut tipping in Ireland rather than discussing Ireland as if it was the states.

It is assessed as an assumption, you can get it reduced if you turn in your records.

Its taxed as income then. The complete opposite of how its seen here.

Totally disagree. Tipping has been a part of fine dining culture in Ireland since Oscar Wilde's time.

And ? How does that change the fact that a tip now as far as current social norms isnt obligatory and seen as a cash bonus ?

Hairdressers in Ireland make a portion of their wage from tips, as do taxi drivers. I'd say tipping your hairdresser is "an expected and socially obligatory payment".

Again you're making false statement and talking nonsense.

osarusan

MadsL wrote: »

How so? If you get into a taxi with only €9 for a €9 fare how can you tip if he gives a good service?

You can't say that 'you'd expect to give the tenner' - which means that tipping is the default position (you should assume that you will be tipping), and then say that tipping shouldn't be automatic.

Tipping because service was above average is very different from not tipping because service was below average.

MadsL

DebDynamite wrote: »

3% is not really a lot, is it? Why don't you go and tip them personally to make up the shortfall? When you go to a restaurant, it's usually for the good food, right? So do you believe the waiting staff should earn more money than then ones actually cooking the food?

Will I tip the cleaners too?

I tip the FoH, how they deal with the Kitchen and bar backs is up to them. Even though I have been in the kitchen in that scenario.

DebDynamite

MadsL wrote: »

Not a euro for your taxi driver, even if he hops out and holds the door for you.

How nice.

"Holds the door for you"???!! You may travel by chauffeur driven limousine, MadsL, but it seems the rest of us do not!

Ace2007

MadsL wrote: »

How so? If you get into a taxi with only €9 for a €9 fare how can you tip if he gives a good service?

If I get into a taxi and the fare is 9 euro and give ten I expect change. By your logic if the service is bad should I only pay 8 euro? If I try that more than likely I would be driven to the nearest Garda station for refusal to pay