Tipping

MadsL

Lewis Savory Clergy wrote: »

Madsl.

[You felt under pressure to avail of service that had a cost that you thought was optional, yet is pretty much widely expected as a cultural norm. Perhaps you ought to rethink who is at fault in that scenario. If you cannot afford the tip your shouldn't buy the service. Or do you expect others to fund your way through life?

It would suit you better to actually read what I said. I encountered people uptight about how much to tip and when. I never said I personally couldd not afford to tip - quite the opposite I can assure you.

You never mentioned others in your original post, it is reasonable to assume that you meant yourself.

Again, whose cultural norm? Not mine.

The cultural norm of the place you are dining. I take my shoes off in a mosque, that is their cultural norm not mine.

I never said I was under pressure. I am quite comfortably well off thank God and never has anybody funded my way through life.
As I said, you might want to take time to actually read and digest what is being said to you rather than leaping blindly into a hole.

Hardly my fault if your posts are vague. Perhaps you should be clearer that you are referring to others in future.

rubadub

MadsL wrote: »

Attitudes on here are the reason Irish restaurants end up with compulsory service charges or pad the menu prices

You say this like its a bad thing! I really wish all were just included, like the vast majority of things I pay for. I was pleased when airlines had to include taxes in advertised prices. I still hate the way ticketmater do not have to openly and clearly display the price you will pay in their adverts.

I wish it was just compulsory, some restaurants have banned tipping.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-end-of-restaurant-tipping-2013-08-19

Staff must be paid min wage so I cannot see how you could think its part of their wages, it most certainly should be regarded as a bonus. I prefer my job where I do not get tips based on sales figures. If I worked in a restaurant I would also prefer to work in a "no tip" restaurant where a steady wage was coming in, rather than hoping the owner advertised well that night, or the chef made decent food.

Some places will have set 12% service charges, which is stated goes to waiters, I still think it strange for a business to openly declare the bonus structure of its employees. If some rock star comes in and buys €2000 worth of champagne I would be kicking myself thinking "jaysus to my staff really deserve a bonus of €240 just for 5mins of work".

Why not include other overheads on the menu, like have the price and say 5% rent, 2% insurance etc. Its a really odd way to go about calculating your finanaces.

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Yeah all us junk food eating peasants will be left standing at the bar in our economy vegas hotel because we didnt tip the maitre'd.

MadsL wrote: »

So you don't think tipping the maitre'd when the restaurant is busy and you don't have a reservation will get you to a table quicker? How quaint

He never said that, how did you even come up with that notion? I unfortunately do think some maitre'ds will accept bribes and so give preferential service to the person who bribes them at the expense of the other diners. And you seem to think there is no downside, how quaint :rolleyes:

The people in the bar/restaurant who see others coming in and bribing to skip queues are thinking the briber is a cunt, and the person accepting the bribes and making them wait is not much better. You would hope staff would be preventing queue skipping, not facilitating it.

MadsL

DebDynamite wrote: »

So why should people leave a tip when they're perfectly happy with the basic level of service they receive?

In that case, why thank your server when they bring the food. Why be polite at all - the service will be the same? Or might it deteriorate the more you don't look at her when ordering, say nothing when the food is brought, ask for things without a please or thank you.

Why be polite at all. It's their job isn't it?

I tip because.

1. It is a polite gesture for service rendered.
2. It is a cultural means to reward god service
3. It improves service for everyone
4. It improves service for me when I return.
5. I've been there.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

MadsL wrote: »

It would suit you better to actually read what I said. I encountered people uptight about how much to tip and when. I never said I personally could not afford to tip - quite the opposite I can assure you.

You never mentioned others in your original post, it is reasonable to assume....




Hardly my fault if your posts are vague. Perhaps you should be clearer that you are referring to others in future.

Again, you might read what was actually said, it was clear enough that I referred to others

During my years in the US I found people uptight about tips and under pressure to tip even when they could not afford it or where service was dire. Tipping post men, hairdresser, binman, grocers..

You are so determined to be right on this that you ignore what is said to your own ends.

Ace2007

MadsL wrote: »

In that case, why thank your server when they bring the food. Why be polite at all - the service will be the same? Or might it deteriorate the more you don't look at her when ordering, say nothing when the food is brought, ask for things without a please or thank you.

Why be polite at all. It's their job isn't it?

I tip because.

1. It is a polite gesture for service rendered.
2. It is a cultural means to reward god service
3. It improves service for everyone
4. It improves service for me when I return.
5. I've been there.

if your tipping and it improves service for everyone then there is no need for me to tip

Thank you (or should I send you a bank transfer of €5?)

MadsL

rubadub wrote: »

You say this like its a bad thing! I really wish all were just included, like the vast majority of things I pay for. I was pleased when airlines had to include taxes in advertised prices. I still hate the way ticketmater do not have to openly and clearly display the price you will pay in their adverts.

I wish it was just compulsory, some restaurants have banned tipping.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-end-of-restaurant-tipping-2013-08-19

You'll note that those are very very high end restaurants, 3 Michelin stars and the like, not your average fine dining neighbour restaurant.

Staff must be paid min wage so I cannot see how you could think its part of their wages, it most certainly should be regarded as a bonus.

Because it is normal expectation that they get a percentage, greater than nothing.

I prefer my job where I do not get tips based on sales figures. If I worked in a restaurant I would also prefer to work in a "no tip" restaurant where a steady wage was coming in, rather than hoping the owner advertised well that night, or the chef made decent food.

Not much point in upselling wine then if the wage stays the same. Then both you and the restaurant lose out if you lose your incentive to upsell or push the special.

Some places will have set 12% service charges, which is stated goes to waiters, I still think it strange for a business to openly declare the bonus structure of its employees. If some rock star comes in and buys €2000 worth of champagne I would be kicking myself thinking "jaysus to my staff really deserve a bonus of €240 just for 5mins of work".

I wasn't working the night Tom Cruise and the cast of Mission Impossible held the wrap party in the Irish bar I used to work in Prague. They worked the staff like demons, ran up a huge tab, and tipped less than 0.5% having read the f8cking guide books about not tipping in the Czech Republic. Were the staff of Americans, Irish, British and Czech aggrieved. Hell yeah. Tom Cruise, if you are reading this, you are a cnut.

Why not include other overheads on the menu, like have the price and say 5% rent, 2% insurance etc. Its a really odd way to go about calculating your finanaces.

The pric multiple on food cost factors your overheads based on industry norms. Seasonality and Market price would be other factors.

He never said that, how did you even come up with that notion? I unfortunately do think some maitre'ds will accept bribes and so give preferential service to the person who bribes them at the expense of the other diners. And you seem to think there is no downside, how quaint :rolleyes:

The people in the bar/restaurant who see others coming in and bribing to skip queues are thinking the briber is a cunt, and the person accepting the bribes and making them wait is not much better. You would hope staff would be preventing queue skipping, not facilitating it.

This is a private business, they can seat in any order they like. It's not a queue for a fairground ride.

If I were Maitre d' I might seat three couples before a party of six all day, simply by availability. If I got a tip from the party of six, I'd certainly help them out to get seated faster if I could.

I don't know too many restaurants that have strict first come first served policies. And regulars and friends of the owner may get seated immediately.

DebDynamite

MadsL wrote: »

In that case, why thank your server when they bring the food. Why be polite at all - the service will be the same? Or might it deteriorate the more you don't look at her when ordering, say nothing when the food is brought, ask for things without a please or thank you.

Why be polite at all. It's their job isn't it?

I tip because.

1. It is a polite gesture for service rendered.
2. It is a cultural means to reward god service
3. It improves service for everyone
4. It improves service for me when I return.
5. I've been there.

So the only way to say thanks is to say it with money?The service is not going to be the same though: you pay great tips and get great service, both that evening and each time you go back to the restaurant. Whereas I don't get remembered and get the normal standard of service.If the only way I'm going to get exceptional service, is by dropping a huge tip in my previous visit, I'd rather not get it at all. Seems completely false to me.

MadsL

Ace2007 wrote: »

if your tipping and it improves service for everyone then there is no need for me to tip

Thank you (or should I send you a bank transfer of €5?)

Unfortunately it works like vaccines - if a decent majority do it, then it works. If you can live with yourself for not doing it, and people talking about you when you have gone, off you go.

Ace2007

MadsL wrote: »

I don't know too many restaurants that have strict first come first served policies. And regulars and friends of the owner may get seated immediately.

If restaurants want the ordinary Joe soap to come to their restaurant then they would treat everyone the same. All you need to do is annoy 2/3 people for reviews to go online and put other people off going there - bad reviews = less customers = less profit.

Ace2007

MadsL wrote: »

Unfortunately it works like vaccines - if a decent majority do it, then it works. If you can live with yourself for not doing it, and people talking about you when you have gone, off you go.

See I don't care what random people think of me.

But please continue

Horrid Henry

MadsL wrote: »

Not much point in upselling wine then if the wage stays the same. Then both you and the restaurant lose out if you lose your incentive to upsell or push the special.

I wasn't working the night Tom Cruise and the cast of Mission Impossible held the wrap party in the Irish bar I used to work in Prague. They worked the staff like demons, ran up a huge tab, and tipped less than 0.5% having read the f8cking guide books about not tipping in the Czech Republic. Were the staff of Americans, Irish, British and Czech aggrieved. Hell yeah. Tom Cruise, if you are reading this, you are a cnut

It's your job to upsell wine. How about just doing your job rather than looking for everyone else to subsidise you?

So Tom Cruise and his crew went to the business that was paying your wages, spent an absolute fortune and didn't tip (because it's not the done thing in Prague)? And you've an issue with that? Interesting...

MadsL

DebDynamite wrote: »

So the only way to say thanks is to say it with money?

Read back - you will see that I have already said that it is not the only way.

The service is not going to be the same though: you pay great tips and get great service, both that evening and each time you go back to the restaurant. Whereas I don't get remembered and get the normal standard of service.If the only way I'm going to get exceptional service, is by dropping a huge tip in my previous visit, I'd rather not get it at all. Seems completely false to me.

Huge tip?

Where did I suggest that?

I'd tip 10-15% in Ireland, 15-20% in the US. I might tip a sommelier seperately if he spent quite some time helping me with the wine, perhaps offering a tasting flight.

DebDynamite

MadsL wrote: »

Unfortunately it works like vaccines - if a decent majority do it, then it works. If you can live with yourself for not doing it, and people talking about you when you have gone, off you go.

Ah sorry MadsL, would you ever get over yourself! I asked you earlier why you wouldn't tip the cleaning staff or kitchen porters (most over worked and underpaid of the lot) and you reply was along the lines of "why should I? They don't do anything to make my dining experience any better".

You don't care about making peoples lives any easier or their job more rewarding, so just want to be treated like a VIP when you walk into a restaurant.

MadsL

Horrid Henry wrote: »

It's your job to upsell wine. How about just doing your job rather than looking for everyone else to subsidise you?

I thought I just brought food, or so everyone tells me on this thread. Here's the wine list, Sir.

What am I doing wrong?

So Tom Cruise and his crew went to the business that was paying your wages, spent an absolute fortune and didn't tip (because it's not the done thing in Prague)? And you've an issue with that? Interesting...

It was common practice in Czech speaking bars, this was an expat bar.

To get the context it was quite common at the time for foreigners to be charged higher rents, so the convenience of speaking English in a bar had a financial burden on the staff.

It was common in expat places in Prague to tip, as he had been in the place three nights previously with Nicole Kidman, he was well aware of that.

He worked the staff to the bone the night of that party, nothing more demanding on service than a Hollywood star, some of the stories I heard were unreal. The tip left was an insult frankly.

MadsL

DebDynamite wrote: »

Ah sorry MadsL, would you ever get over yourself!

Charming!

Would you live with yourself for not saying thank you as you were leaving? I wouldn't, that's the level of living with yourself I'm talking about - up to your own conscience, I personally think not tipping is rude.

I asked you earlier why you wouldn't tip the cleaning staff or kitchen porters (most over worked and underpaid of the lot) and you reply was along the lines of "why should I? They don't do anything to make my dining experience any better".

I also listed out the reasons I tip above. I would hope that the restaurant pays a reasonable rate, but I can hardly go into the kitchen handing out fivers to potwashers. I didn't make the rules for restaurateurs.

You don't care about making peoples lives any easier or their job more rewarding, so just want to be treated like a VIP when you walk into a restaurant.

Am I a bad person for that? Perhaps I should check the financial circumstances of every staff member before choosing a restaurant.

If it is of such concern to you, why don't you tip the cleaners/potwashers etc?

MadsL

Ace2007 wrote: »

See I don't care what random people think of me.

But please continue

I think we are done, have you another point to make?

Hope you never have to make a living as waiter though if you only meet people like yourself.

FTA69

MadsL wrote: »

I hope you tip London cabbies, you'll get cursed at for sure if you don't. Not uncommon for them to reach back and pop the door for you.

You don't get cursed at whatsoever for not tipping black cabs. Nor is it inherently expected. I'll usually give them the change out of the note which often equates to around 10% but no taxi driver (least of all a minicab) will bat an eyelid if you give him the stated fare. In fact the only time I had a taxi driver moan at me for not tipping was in Vegas after your man was a rude asshole who had a loud, aggressive phone conversation in Bengali the whole journey, didn't acknowledge us once and then said "how much?" when I handed him a note. He then called me an "asshole" as he drove away. Similarly there are plenty of arsey service staff in the US who expect tips as a matter of standard no matter how rude they are.

Where? In Ireland or the US?

It doesn't matter where you are, a waiter should help you with a buggy or open the door for an elderly woman because it's the right thing to do and there shouldn't have to be a monetary expectation in that process. It's cheap and it's crass and wasn't something I ever expected myself when I was doing those jobs.

Perhaps you should call over the manager and give him some tips on running a bar in Vegas? Have you any idea how much those zombies contribute to the bar, way more than your beers.

God you're actually so patronising it's not even funny at this stage. I'm familiar with how much gambling revenue brings in thanks, there are plenty of gaming machines in London pubs as well. And they're sh*t. And they're one of the main reasons why pubs in Las Vegas are sh*t as well.

If you want to be "drinking in a pub and having the craic" go to a Irish pub and not a Vegas bar. Perhaps go over to Nine Fine Irishmen at NYNY?

I went to Rí Rá in Mandalay Bay, the staff were mostly from Cork and it wasn't ruined by prickish barmen and flashing poker machines.

Would you refuse if someone slipped you a tenner?

As a bouncer? Definitely. Anyone trying to give you notes for opening the door is usually doing it to either buy your compliance for them snorting coke in the jacks or else just showing off in front of their old doll. I did take money for letting people in after we stopped entry though. But that was just an auld bribe and nobody was under any illusions about what it was.

Horrid Henry

MadsL wrote: »

I thought I just brought food, or so everyone tells me on this thread. Here's the wine list, Sir.

What am I doing wrong?



It was common practice in Czech speaking bars, this was an expat bar.

To get the context it was quite common at the time for foreigners to be charged higher rents, so the convenience of speaking English in a bar had a financial burden on the staff.

It was common in expat places in Prague to tip, as he had been in the place three nights previously with Nicole Kidman, he was well aware of that.

He worked the staff to the bone the night of that party, nothing more demanding on service than a Hollywood star, some of the stories I heard were unreal. The tip left was an insult frankly.

You suggested that you wouldn't be bothered upselling wine unless higher bills meant more money for you. That's an appallingly shortsighted attitude.

As for Cruise, he gets nothing but hostility and disdain from you despite spending a fortune in your employer's establishment...again, rather shortsighted.

MadsL

Ace2007 wrote: »

If restaurants want the ordinary Joe soap to come to their restaurant then they would treat everyone the same. All you need to do is annoy 2/3 people for reviews to go online and put other people off going there - bad reviews = less customers = less profit.

You don't 'treat everyone the same'. You often cannot seat a six-top before a couple because you are waiting on a four and couple to push tables together to make the six-top.

People get seated out of order all the time.

Just try "we were here first" at a restaurant sometime and see where it gets you.

If you have no reservation, there is no obligation for the restaurant to seat you at all, and you will not be privy to the reasons for seating people in any case.

FTA69

MadsL wrote: »

If it is of such concern to you, why don't you tip the cleaners/potwashers etc?

Because it is up to their company to pay them a living wage. The only person to blame for a low wage are the employers who choose to pay it. That's all.

I tip because as you said, "I've been there" and I have a few bob now. That's the only reason. I'd much rather businesses actually paid their staff properly.

MadsL

Horrid Henry wrote: »

You suggested that you wouldn't be bothered upselling wine unless higher bills meant more money for you. That's an appall

Personally I would try and help the owner. That said, many hospitality owners are complete psychos, I worked in one place and got fired about 12 times in one week by the (drunk) owner. In that case why would I do him a favour?

Horrid Henry

MadsL wrote: »

Personally I would try and help the owner. That said, many hospitality owners are complete psychos, I worked in one place and got fired about 12 times in one week by the (drunk) owner. In that case why would I do him a favour?

It's not a favour!

It's your job!

MadsL

Horrid Henry wrote: »

As for Cruise, he gets nothing but hostility and disdain from you despite spending a fortune in your employer's establishment...again, rather shortsighted.

Cruise has a reputation in this regard.

FTA69

Horrid Henry wrote: »

As for Cruise, he gets nothing but hostility and disdain from you despite spending a fortune in your employer's establishment...again, rather shortsighted.

What the employer makes is of no concern to a minimum wage bar worker, least of all if he's being worked to the bone in the process. Do you think he gives a sh*t that his boss got richer and he got nothing? If staff put themselves out serving a large party, dealing with kids, remembering rounds and being patient while someone goes back and forth with a drinks order every couple of seconds then it's reasonable to at least by that barperson a pint or throw them a few bob.

That's a genuine recognition of good service and a discretionary payment. It's the automatic "dollar a drink" or "12%" I have a problem with.

MadsL

Horrid Henry wrote: »

It's not a favour!

It's your job!

Why is upselling my job?

Deliver food, polite service, here's the wine list. etc etc.
Basic service, basic wages.

Isn't that what people here want?

Problem?

MadsL

MadsL wrote: »

Cruise has a reputation in this regard.

The Cruiser named a "bad tipper". Also "rude". Also "complete screaming lunatic". Okay, that last one was us.

From Post Chronicle: "A report from the website entitled bitterwaitress.com has labeled TomKat a cheapskate. BitterWaitress.com has thousands of entries listing the identities of the generous gratuity avoiders. The so-called '****ty Tipper Database' has famous names and regular citizen's side-by-side for turning cheap when the check came.
Tipper's Name: Tom Cruise
Where it happened: New York
Total bill/Tip amount/Percentage: $458.63/$5.00/ 1%
What happened?
Tom and Katie Holmes were absolutely rude as anything I've ever seen!"

$5 on a $458 bill?!? Maybe he's saving money on tips so he can refund everyone who bought a ticket to War of the Worlds? Just a suggestion...

http://www.tomcruiseisnuts.com/

Horrid Henry

MadsL wrote: »

Why is upselling my job?

Deliver food, polite service, here's the wine list. etc etc.
Basic service, basic wages.

Isn't that what people here want?

Problem?

Personally I'd see the success of the business and my own financial position as intertwined so I'd upsell on wine etc rather than just doing the bare minimum. Then I'd probably progress up the ranks and earn more loot. But then part of the reason that I'm not on minimum wage is the fact that I've always done far more than the bare minimum in any job I've had.

DebDynamite

Would you live with yourself for not saying thank you as you were leaving? I wouldn't, that's the level of living with yourself I'm talking about - up to your own conscience, I personally think not tipping is rude.

Again I ask, is leaving a tip the only way of saying thank you?

I also listed out the reasons I tip above. I would hope that the restaurant pays a reasonable rate, but I can hardly go into the kitchen handing out fivers to potwashers. I didn't make the rules for restaurateurs.

Ah come on MadsL, having worked in the industry, surely you know how much money kitchen porters, commi chefs, chef de partie's make. (I'll give you a hint - it's much less than what the waiting staff make when tips are taken into account). You could tip them if you wanted to. Leave a $20 bill with the restaurant manager. It would make their day because it rarely happens.

If it is of such concern to you, why don't you tip the cleaners/potwashers etc?

I would if the ridiculous social norm of tipping waiting staff a minimum 10% changed (for doing the easiest job in in restaurant :rolleyes:) I just don't have the money to be tipping the rest of the staff after that. Unlike you, I don't like paying it. However I'm too weak willed (unlike others here, fortunately), to walk out without leaving a tip.

FTA69

Horrid Henry wrote: »

Personally I'd see the success of the business and my own financial position as intertwined so I'd upsell on wine etc rather than just doing the bare minimum. Then I'd probably progress up the ranks and earn more loot. But then part of the reason that I'm not on minimum wage is the fact that I've always done far more than the bare minimum in any job I've had.

You're as bad as the other fella.

Most people in minimum wage service jobs are in transit to something else; whether they be students, actors etc or in my case, an intern. I used to work for Mitchell and Butler's, one the biggest pub chains in Europe that posts millions of pounds in profits annually. Do you think me upselling wine made a dramatic impact on my financial situation? Did it b*llocks. Fair enough if you're committed to becoming a bar manager, but for anyone else it won't make a blind bit of difference.

MadsL

FTA69 wrote: »

You don't get cursed at whatsoever for not tipping black cabs.

I have been, but then he did let me use his phone, and I got the tip wrong in a fluster as I was late (half of what I should have tipped)

Nor is it inherently expected. I'll usually give them the change out of the note which often equates to around 10% but no taxi driver (least of all a minicab) will bat an eyelid if you give him the stated fare.

Looks like I got the miracle cabbie.

VisitLondon.com wrote:

it is polite to tip 10-15% of the taxi fare for black cabs and licensed minicabs in London. However, most people simply round up the fare to the nearest £1 and tell the driver to "keep the change". If you've had a longer journey and the driver has assisted you with luggage, you may wish to tip a little more, up to £5.

In fact the only time I had a taxi driver moan at me for not tipping was in Vegas after your man was a rude asshole who had a loud, aggressive phone conversation in Bengali the whole journey, didn't acknowledge us once and then said "how much?" when I handed him a note. He then called me an "asshole" as he drove away. Similarly there are plenty of arsey service staff in the US who expect tips as a matter of standard no matter how rude they are.

Yep assholes are everywhere.

It doesn't matter where you are, a waiter should help you with a buggy or open the door for an elderly woman because it's the right thing to do and there shouldn't have to be a monetary expectation in that process. It's cheap and it's crass and wasn't something I ever expected myself when I was doing those jobs.

So you would keep a tenner then.

God you're actually so patronising it's not even funny at this stage. I'm familiar with how much gambling revenue brings in thanks, there are plenty of gaming machines in London pubs as well. And they're sh*t. And they're one of the main reasons why pubs in Las Vegas are sh*t as well.

Oh dear, you are not going to like what I have to say next...

Vegas. Not. Famous. For. Pubs.

Vegas has some of the most incredible bars in the world. The very best bars. End of.

http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2011/nov/16/top-10-bars-las-vegas

I went to Rí Rá in Mandalay Bay, the staff were mostly from Cork and it wasn't ruined by prickish barmen and flashing poker machines.

Dude, you went to Vegas and hung out with a bunch of barmen from Cork? Seriously? There's an entire bar made of ice in that casino. But no, Bottle of Heino thanks there... and a chat about the GAA.

As a bouncer? Definitely. Anyone trying to give you notes for opening the door is usually doing it to either buy your compliance for them snorting coke in the jacks or else just showing off in front of their old doll. I did take money for letting people in after we stopped entry though. But that was just an auld bribe and nobody was under any illusions about what it was.

There ya go. You high horse has a wooden leg.