Deutchland v Ireland ko 7:45 in Koln

gosplan

Dempsey wrote: »

One of the most ridiculous comments I've read on here in a while.

Makes sense. Maybe ambitious is wrong bit any coach with decent options available to them will NOT take the under 21 job

Of course maybe you could find me an example to prove me wrong.

Neeson

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/interim-manager-noel-king-lashes-out-at-comedy-rte-panel-over-criticism-29654380.html

Dempsey

gosplan wrote: »

Makes sense. Maybe ambitious is wrong bit any coach with decent options available to them will NOT take the under 21 job

Of course maybe you could find me an example to prove me wrong.

You're changing the argument now, the earlier statement was ridiculous.

grenache

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well said. The penny hasn't dropped yet for the posters on here. Trapp wasn't holding us back. We're rubbish.

I think you're confusing us with the North. As our former manager often said, we are not Brazil. But we're certainly not rubbish either.

With a competent manager in place, and the right players on the field i.e. Hoolahan, Reid, etc, we can certainly make a decent go of qualification for France 2016.

We won't face the quality of the Germans in every match, it's easy to be overly critical after Friday night's game. Trap never even attempted to let the team play football, too busy telling guys to kick it back to the opposition at every opportunity. If we learn to keep the ball, we'll do ok.

Corholio

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well said. The penny hasn't dropped yet for the posters on here. Trapp wasn't holding us back. We're rubbish.

3 goals less rubbish than at the Aviva though. It apparently has to be world class or rubbish with you.

gosplan

Dempsey wrote: »

You're changing the argument now, the earlier statement was ridiculous.

No I'm changing a word which I admitted was wrong.

The original argument is staying the same. We were discussing how good we can expect King to be and my point was that it's probably not realistic to expect the u21 manager to be at a very high level.

Like I said 'ambitious' was wrong but my point was that it's not a stepping stone job. If the u21 manager had clubs knocking down their door, then they wouldn't stay the u21 manager.

This was all in response to someone saying King was a perfect example of what's wrong with football in this country.

My argument is that you can only expect him to be so good and that point isn't changing. But you'll be glad you get to be correct about the one wrong word I used. Now on to the next brilliant discussion with you.

Aenaes

grenache wrote: »

Trap never even attempted to let the team play football, too busy telling guys to kick it back to the opposition at every opportunity. If we learn to keep the ball, we'll do ok.

Why does this always come up? Trap came out a few times and said he never told players not to pass the ball.

Take a look at Wilson and Coleman. Since they came into the fullback positions they have tried to play/pass their way out from defence and quite a few times have lost possession leaving Ireland very vulnerable.

Now, if Trap says he wants our defenders to kick the ball as hard as they can every time they receive it then wouldn't he have slammed Wilson/Coleman for losing the ball to the opposition in our own half?

When they done it the second, third time etc., surely Trap would have replaced them for not following his instructions?

Or maybe we just have player's that aren't comfortable on the ball. Dunne, O'Shea, Whelan, Ward, St. Ledger kicked long balls forward because that's what they wanted to do. They don't have the confidence/ability to be on the ball like Wilson/Coleman and so wanted to hoof it away instead of losing it.

secman

I know we were playing Germany..........but we seem to be brow beaten over the last 4 years or so. If you are constantly being told that you are not very good, constantly reminded that you are not technical, well it would definitely get into your head. We effectively had 10 players behind the ball on Friday night, almost entirely in our half of the pitch. Yet they were able to find space and pick out passes. We were marking space, my missus even noticed that, she was calling out their numbers who were free for passes. But when we got the ball, they hunted us with a huge amount of urgency. We had no urgency, almost admired them on the ball. No belief in the squad at all. When we packed our half with so many players it should have stifled the game, but it didn't. In reality a reflective scoreline would have been 6 -1. Was really looking forward to the match and really hoped that we would put out a team consisting of our most comfortable players on the ball and all playing in their positions. Kinger in his summary didn't even mention Forde and all the saves he had to make !

Have to say , I was bitterly disappointed with our set up, team selected, our display and was totally pissed off when I saw Whelan looking for Ozils shirt

Adrift

I think the panel and sections of the media were far too harsh on King. To say that game was a baptism of fire is an understatement. With very little time he changed the system and the personel, it was inevitable the outcome would be the same as nothing will change overnight - especially against a side like that. I'll admit it's very depressing to watch these games now knowing we're not even going to be competitive but credit must go to King who has handled himself brilliantly over the past couple of weeks. 3-0 is respectable enough considering the disaster this time last year and if Stokes hadn't been so wasteful on several occasions we may have made the Germans work a little harder for their victory.

keeponhurling

There were a little harsh on King. It was after all Germany away, with Keane injured and O'Shea & Dunne suspended.
I think the only really problems I had with King was that he selected Doyle out the wing for some reason, and never made any subs when things weren't working.
Otherwise there's not much he could do,.
4-5-1 was a reasonable enough formation to go with.

Players need to take responsibility when they cross the white line.
Just like Trap before him, I don't think King told the players to give the ball back to Germany every time they got it.

We are screaming out for a midfielder that is comfortable on the ball. I thought that man might be McCarthy, but now I'm not so sure after the last few games.
But our problems are not restricted to the midfield, the likes of Coleman, Wilson, Gibson were shown up badly at this level

DeanAustin

keeponhurling wrote: »

There were a little harsh on King. It was after all Germany away, with Keane injured and O'Shea & Dunne suspended.
I think the only really problems I had with King was that he selected Doyle out the wing for some reason, and never made any subs when things weren't working.
Otherwise there's not much he could do,.
4-5-1 was a reasonable enough formation to go with.

Players need to take responsibility when they cross the white line.
Just like Trap before him, I don't think King told the players to give the ball back to Germany every time they got it.

We are screaming out for a midfielder that is comfortable on the ball. I thought that man might be McCarthy, but now I'm not so sure after the last few games.
But our problems are not restricted to the midfield, the likes of Coleman, Wilson, Gibson were shown up badly at this level

We were never likely to get anything out of the game but the selection defied all common sense. Whelan on the right and Doyle on the left? Our only tactic for a lot of the game was Forde lumping it to Doyle to get a flick on? It was dire, awful stuff and I can't figure out what King was thinking.

Sometimes I think managers are trying to be too clever to show that they see something that no-one else does. That team and performance was a complete shambles.

That said, King is not an idiot. He's been around football for decades and knows more about it than me or probably anyone on this board. That's what's so strange. How can a man of his experience and knowledge make an impossible task even more impossible with that daft team selection?

Our problems go far, far deeper than Noel King though. We really have no clue how to play the game in this country. Some of the movement the other night from our players was absolutely diabolical and it's the fruits of a footballing culture that says you have to move from back to front as quickly as possible. Often the other night, it wasn't the fault of the fella playing the pass that we lost possession or had to lump it.

keeponhurling

While obviously we could always do with a Roy Keane or Ronnie Whelan in midfield, even somebody like Mark Kinsella or Mattie Holland would be a huge addition to the current side.

briany

secman wrote: »

was totally pissed off when I saw Whelan looking for Ozils shirt

Ah, shur, I'd say Ozil politely requested that they exchange shirts at the whistle. It's not every day you can say you played Glenn Whelan.

BraziliaNZ

I really have had it with hearing the stupid Fields of Athenry at every f*cking game. Can we just move on from that awful song about bloody famine? Was this song a thing in the 90s, when we were successful? I only remember it starting to become a feature of every game after the glory years. Am I wrong?

briany

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I really have had it with hearing the stupid Fields of Athenry at every f*cking game. Can we just move on from that awful song about bloody famine? Was this song a thing in the 90s, when we were successful? I only remember it starting to become a feature of every game after the glory years. Am I wrong?

Oh, come on. When Ireland are listlessly limping to defeat, could there be anything more comforting than hearing the faithful fans sing a small portion of the song again and again and again and again? And again? Maybe if they could actually learn all the words....

Banjaxed82

Fields of Athenry had its moment in the sun. The Spain game in Poland was lightning in a bottle stuff. Genuine hairs on the back of your neck. Now it's just cringe worthy.

Where as we may in fact be the "victim", do we have to make it so obvious that we are. There was a sense of dignity in defeat when sung against Spain, now it just feels like our "we've lost" song.

Surely as a player, when at your lowest eb, you want encouragement with a chant/song, not Michael being taken away, leaving his family to starve.

fryup

fryup wrote: »

i wonder will robbie keane be fit for tuedays night game??

he missed last years match with germany as well...hmmmm

maybe deep down he felt it was a lost cause??

Mocha Joe wrote: »

Absolutely ludicrous comment.

but is it??? last year he missed the german game through "injury" and was fit as a fiddle a few days later against the faroes and this year again he misses the german game and lo & behold he's fit for the kazhistan game

coincidence??

DeanAustin

fryup wrote: »

but is it??? last year he missed the german game through "injury" and was fit as a fiddle a few days later against the faroes and this year again he misses the german game and lo & behold he's fit for the kazhistan game

coincidence??

Ah seriously?

The fella travelled from California for the games. Why would he do that to sit on the line against Germany? Coz he's scared of playing Germany? This is the same fella who turned up the week after his father died to play for Ireland, has travelled to play every time he could for pretty much any game, who went through the Kerr and Stan eras when very little was going his way and you think he's feigned injury to avoid the Germans who all the experts predicted and the game the other night showed, give up chances during every game.

I've seen some pretty dumb stuff posted on the internet over the years but this takes the absolute biscuit.

fryup

DeanAustin wrote: »

Ah seriously?

The fella travelled from California for the games.

yes the games.. two games ..one hard one and one easy one, and he's fit for the easy one

DeanAustin wrote: »

Why would he do that to sit on the line against Germany?

because he knew deep down ireland would get trashed and he didn't want anything to do with it

devotional1993

fryup wrote: »

but is it??? last year he missed the german game through "injury" and was fit as a fiddle a few days later against the faroes and this year again he misses the german game and lo & behold he's fit for the kazhistan game

coincidence??

Thats like something an 8 year old makes up in the playground .

Following Irish teams at home since Dalymount park in 1983 and have rarely seen a player that loves playing for his country more!

devotional1993

fryup wrote: »

but is it??? last year he missed the german game through "injury" and was fit as a fiddle a few days later against the faroes and this year again he misses the german game and lo & behold he's fit for the kazhistan game

coincidence??

Thats like something an 8 year old makes up in the playground .

Following Irish teams at home since Dalymount park in 1983 and have rarely seen a player that loves playing for his country more!

roanoke

One way to know for sure is if Keane chooses to stay on for the next campaign. If he does stay then he's clearly not afraid of playing in a team due for large beatings at the hands of superior opposition.

DeanAustin

fryup wrote: »

yes the games.. two games ..one hard one and one easy one, and he's fit for the easy one



because he knew deep down ireland would get trashed and he didn't want anything to do with it

Yer havin a laugh.

Why did he play in the Euros against Spain and Italy particularly? Robbie's been in plenty of Irish teams that have been tonked or looked like they'd be tonked. He's never, ever given anything less than 100%. Like I say, there was also more of a chance of Robbie scoring the other night than in many games where he has played.

What's to be gained, for Robbie Keane, to play tomorrow night if he doesn't give everything for Ireland (like you're suggesting)? Playing against a bunch of sub-standard journeymen in a meaningless game isn't going to do much for him. Wouldn't he have been better staying in California in the sun rather than getting on a 12 or 13 hour flight into the Irish autumn? Most people on here would have done that if they had Robbie's money and his missus. Yet the lad travelled because he loves playing for Ireland. It's disrespectful and pretty disgraceful that he continues to have people throw this sort of nonsensical muck at him.

If you really believe what you're typing and not just trying to get a rise, you're deluded.

DeanAustin

roanoke wrote: »

One way to know for sure is if Keane chooses to stay on for the next campaign. If he does stay then he's clearly not afraid of playing in a team due for large beatings at the hands of superior opposition.

How will that prove anything?

The fella is 33. He's entitled to retire if he wants. He lives thousands of miles away, he's given us magnificent service so if he retires, that isn't proof that he was scared to play in a team that was going to take beatings.

FFS can we deduce from that that Paul Scholes was terrified of playing in team worse than Man U or Alan Shearer was scared of international football? Perhaps we could also deduce that Roy Keane walked out of the World Cup in 2002 because he was terrified of Cameroon and Saudi Arabia.

fryup

DeanAustin wrote: »

Yer havin a laugh.

Why did he play in the Euros against Spain and Italy particularly? .

because it was the Euros a major international event

the game on friday night was a lost cause ireland were out anyway and the german game last year involved a makeshift depleted irish team that had no chance

LuckyLloyd

Some people really, really hate Robbie Keane.

Dearg81

yes the games.. two games ..one hard one and one easy one, and he's fit for the easy one

He's fit for the 2nd of the 2 games as it was 4 days later not because its easy.

What the hell is so hard to believe about a 33 year old getting injured and then recovering a few days later?

DeanAustin

fryup wrote: »

because it was the Euros a major international event

the game on friday night was a lost cause ireland were out anyway and the german game last year involved a makeshift depleted irish team that had no chance

Right.

You're beyond reasoning with if you really believe this.

roanoke

DeanAustin wrote: »

How will that prove anything?

The fella is 33. He's entitled to retire if he wants. He lives thousands of miles away, he's given us magnificent service so if he retires, that isn't proof that he was scared to play in a team that was going to take beatings.

FFS can we deduce from that that Paul Scholes was terrified of playing in team worse than Man U or Alan Shearer was scared of international football? Perhaps we could also deduce that Roy Keane walked out of the World Cup in 2002 because he was terrified of Cameroon and Saudi Arabia.

.... or perhaps you could just take what I said as how it was written. It says that if Keane stays then clearly he's not afraid to be involved with a losing team or a team due for drubbings etc. It doesn't say anywhere that if he leaves that it therefore means the opposite. In fact it doesn't say anything about him leaving at all.

fryup

Dearg81 wrote: »

What the hell is so hard to believe about a 33 year old getting injured and then recovering a few days later?

because its just seems too coincidental, exactly the same scenario happened last year

sorry if i'm going against the grain on this but thats just my gut feeling on it, ok

DeanAustin

fryup wrote: »

because its just seems too coincidental, exactly the same scenario happened last year

sorry if i'm going against the grain on this but thats just my gut feeling on it, ok

I'd correct the location on your profile if I was you...

Dearg81

fryup wrote: »

because its just seems too coincidental, exactly the same scenario happened last year

sorry if i'm going against the grain on this but thats just my gut feeling on it, ok

You're going against logic aswell as well as the grain. He has well over 100 caps, turns up for nearly every match even when he's not fully fit and loves scoring goals. As good a team as Germany are, they are not exactly water tight at the back and Keane would have fancied his changes against them.

Iang87

i dont see why everyone is jumping down his throat. Its a running joke between lots of guys I know how keane wont be fully fit for big games where he might not get a kick but can always be fit to play little teams very shortly after it.

I'm not saying he's definitely doing it that way but no1 can say he's definitely not doing it that way and as for your man above going on about roy keane in the world cup and how robbie played in the euros you are very obviously missing the point here but I feel given you're definite inability to see a simple point in another post you wont see the point in this one and you'll reply with something "witty"

DeanAustin

Iang87 wrote: »

i dont see why everyone is jumping down his throat. Its a running joke between lots of guys I know how keane wont be fully fit for big games where he might not get a kick but can always be fit to play little teams very shortly after it.

I'm not saying he's definitely doing it that way but no1 can say he's definitely not doing it that way and as for your man above going on about roy keane in the world cup and how robbie played in the euros you are very obviously missing the point here but I feel given you're definite inability to see a simple point in another post you wont see the point in this one and you'll reply with something "witty"

If you honestly think that Robbie Keane avoids the big teams then you haven't a breeze.

If the point is that Robbie could be ducking the likes of Germany and no-one can disprove it then how is it any more stupid to say Roy Keane could have been afraid to test himself at the highest level in 2002?

Both theories are dumb but they are equally dumb.

professore

Don't know why people are saying Kazakhstan will be easy. In the first game they played us off the park for 85 minutes, and only for Kevin Doyle coming on as a sub, creating one goal and scoring another we would have lost.

roanoke

Here as the competitive games Robbie Keane has missed since his debut :

EC2000 Yugoslavia (a) ; Turkey (a)

WC2002 Andorra (h) ; Estonia (a) ; Cyprus (h) ;

EC2004 Georgia (a) ; Russia (h)

WC2006 Faroes (a) ;

EC2008 Slovakia (h) ;

WC2010 none

EC2012 Armenia (h) ;

WC2014 Germany (h) ; Austria (h) ; Germany (a) ;

Note: not all these absences injury based. For instance was suspended for Slovakia-EC2008 and was tactically dropped to cover a yellow card for Andorra-WC2002.

Also during the early McCarthy years it appears Keane was sometimes occasionally shuffled out of the team depending on tactics.

Overall though I think there is a good mix of tough teams and minnows in that list, indicating Keane isn't just trying to call in sick when it looks like its going to be a tough nights work.

devotional1993

Iang87 wrote: »

i dont see why everyone is jumping down his throat. Its a running joke between lots of guys I know how keane wont be fully fit for big games where he might not get a kick but can always be fit to play little teams very shortly after it.

I'm not saying he's definitely doing it that way but no1 can say he's definitely not doing it that way and as for your man above going on about roy keane in the world cup and how robbie played in the euros you are very obviously missing the point here but I feel given you're definite inability to see a simple point in another post you wont see the point in this one and you'll reply with something "witty"

You should hang around people that actually know what they are talking about so when it comes to Robbie Keane or Irish football.

Boskowski

Having been at the match I have to say both teams weren't great.

Obviously it looked like a training match for Germany with all that power they have going forward. Oezil is some player in the flesh. Schuerrle looked unstoppable too. Nothing needs to be said about Lahm, Kroos is getting stronger by the minute it seems.

But any time Ireland got something going forward at all Germany were all over the place. Ireland could have had 2 goals easily. With that defence teams like Italy will tear Germany a new one.

As for Ireland I thought they were terrible individually. Forde was good, Coleman easily Irelands best player, Stokes while having a couple of howlers looked at least like a player.
Himself and Coleman looked like the only guys who weren't afraid to get on the ball. Fellas like Wilson looked awful. Get the ball, get the rid of the ball, hide behind a German, 'please don't give it back to me'. Awful. I mean whatever about the gulf in quality these guys are professional footballers ffs. I'd expect some ability to take the ball, play the ball, make yourself available down the touchline again giving the other guy an obvious option.
Na, they were actually hiding behind a German, 'I'm marked please boot it up the pitch, don't even look at me'. Fkn terrible.
I wonder is this Traps legacy or what, has he sucked all confidence out of them?

DeanAustin

Boskowski wrote: »

Having been at the match I have to say both teams weren't great.

Obviously it looked like a training match for Germany with all that power they have going forward. Oezil is some player in the flesh. Schuerrle looked unstoppable too. Nothing needs to be said about Lahm, Kroos is getting stronger by the minute it seems.

But any time Ireland got something going forward at all Germany were all over the place. Ireland could have had 2 goals easily. With that defence teams like Italy will tear Germany a new one.

As for Ireland I thought they were terrible individually. Forde was good, Coleman easily Irelands best player, Stokes while having a couple of howlers looked at least like a player.
Himself and Coleman looked like the only guys who weren't afraid to get on the ball. Fellas like Wilson looked awful. Get the ball, get the rid of the ball, hide behind a German, 'please don't give it back to me'. Awful. I mean whatever about the gulf in quality these guys are professional footballers ffs. I'd expect some ability to take the ball, play the ball, make yourself available down the touchline again giving the other guy an obvious option.
Na, they were actually hiding behind a German, 'I'm marked please boot it up the pitch, don't even look at me'. Fkn terrible.
I wonder is this Traps legacy or what, has he sucked all confidence out of them?

Fully agree. You could see it on tv and probably much better there. At times, rather than make an angle for a pass, our lads just charged forward or hid. When the Germans had it, they had 3 or 4 options but there was always at least one square and one behind.

That's not Trap's legacy in my view. That's the football culture in this country. Go to any League of Ireland game and it's the same. It's mostly not the fault of the lad on the ball. The rest need to realise that they have an obligation to find some space and create an angle for a pass.

Sadly I don't believe that there is a real will in Ireland to change things.

Corholio

DeanAustin wrote: »

Fully agree. You could see it on tv and probably much better there. At times, rather than make an angle for a pass, our lads just charged forward or hid. When the Germans had it, they had 3 or 4 options but there was always at least one square and one behind.

That's not Trap's legacy in my view. That's the football culture in this country. Go to any League of Ireland game and it's the same. It's mostly not the fault of the lad on the ball. The rest need to realise that they have an obligation to find some space and create an angle for a pass.

Sadly I don't believe that there is a real will in Ireland to change things.

Your blaming the LOI for this? Jesus christ.

People wonder why some defend the league so vigorously. There aren't even any LOI players in the squad, or even any who have very recently played here, so your point is a crock. Plenty good football in the LOI too by the way.

DeanAustin

Corholio wrote: »

Your blaming the LOI for this? Jesus christ.

People wonder why some defend the league so vigorously. There aren't even any LOI players in the squad, or even any who have very recently played here, so your point is a crock. Plenty good football in the LOI too by the way.

If my point was the LOI is to blame, then yes it's a crock. But if you read my post, that wasn't my point.

"That's the football culture in this country" is the key line. I used the LOI as an example because it's the pinnacle of the game in Ireland. It's a symptom rather than the cause and I say that as a LOI season ticket holder. The mindset and the culture in this country is the problem. It's visible at every single level of football from my five-a-side through to the LOI.

We play the game as if it's imperative to get from back to front as quickly as possible. That you don't "mess about with it" at the back. You f**king launch it if you're in any doubt. That it's the duty of the fella on the ball to pick a pass and not on his team mates to show for the ball and give him some options. That's not the LOI's fault at all and I don't believe that there is a willingness to change that mindset.

TaosHum

DeanAustin wrote: »

Fully agree. You could see it on tv and probably much better there. At times, rather than make an angle for a pass, our lads just charged forward or hid. When the Germans had it, they had 3 or 4 options but there was always at least one square and one behind.

That's not Trap's legacy in my view. That's the football culture in this country. Go to any League of Ireland game and it's the same. It's mostly not the fault of the lad on the ball. The rest need to realise that they have an obligation to find some space and create an angle for a pass.

Sadly I don't believe that there is a real will in Ireland to change things.

I disagree. I'd be of the opinion that Trap's philosophy is still firmly ingrained in the mindset of the players. I don't see how a philosophy that was in place for 6 years could be eradicated in a week by a caretaker manager, who knew we were going up against a far superior German side and that we would have far less of the ball than in most matches. Hell, those cross field passes to Doyle are a prime example that King wanted the players to kick long when given the chance. I actually find it staggering people expected Ireland to come out and pass the ball more considering King was never going to be made permanent manager and he had such limited time working with the players.

Changing a philosophy can take months before real results can be seen. Swansea City are a great example of a club that stuck with its philospohy of playing the ball on the ground and have reaped the rewards from doing so. And this started with a limited group of players in League One.

St. Pats are another good example of a team with limited resources trying to play the ball on the ground and having success with it. They are certainly the exception in the LOI, but nonetheless they show that if a team commits to playing a certain way, then they are well able to do it.

DeanAustin

TaosHum wrote: »

I disagree. I'd be of the opinion that Trap's philosophy is still firmly ingrained in the mindset of the players. I don't see how a philosophy that was in place for 6 years could be eradicated in a week by a caretaker manager, who knew we were going up against a far superior German side and that we would have far less of the ball than in most matches. Hell, those cross field passes to Doyle are a prime example that King wanted the players to kick long when given the chance. I actually find it staggering people expected Ireland to come out and pass the ball more considering King was never going to be made permanent manager and he had such limited time working with the players.

Changing a philosophy can take months before real results can be seen. Swansea City are a great example of a club that stuck with its philospohy of playing the ball on the ground and have reaped the rewards from doing so. And this started with a limited group of players in League One.

St. Pats are another good example of a team with limited resources trying to play the ball on the ground and having success with it. They are certainly the exception in the LOI, but nonetheless they show that if a team commits to playing a certain way, then they are well able to do it.

I agree that it takes a long time to change a philosophy and you can't just say "pass the ball short" and it'll magically happen. But I don't think it's Trap's legacy, it's far more deep rooted than that.

I haven't seen Pats this season but by your own admission, most of the LOI don't try to play the type of football we all seem to want (and I'd echo that from what I've seen). Go to watch any level of football in this country. Whenever someone gets the ball, his/her team-mates, by and large, charge past them looking for a pass to try and get to the opponent's goal as soon as possible. Watch free kicks and corners - everyone piles into the box waiting for a long ball.

We don't look for or use space well. We put the onus on the lad with the ball to pick out a team mate even if the team mate is hidden behind opposition players. That's not down to Trap. He probably realised that's how we are brought up in this country and applied a fairly unsophisticated brand of football to, as he saw it, make the best of what he had (not saying he was right btw).

If we think our current limitations are the result of one man then we are doomed to be in the same position in 2-3 years and again 2-3 years after that.

TaosHum

DeanAustin wrote: »

I agree that it takes a long time to change a philosophy and you can't just say "pass the ball short" and it'll magically happen. But I don't think it's Trap's legacy, it's far more deep rooted than that.

I haven't seen Pats this season but by your own admission, most of the LOI don't try to play the type of football we all seem to want (and I'd echo that from what I've seen). Go to watch any level of football in this country. Whenever someone gets the ball, his/her team-mates, by and large, charge past them looking for a pass to try and get to the opponent's goal as soon as possible. Watch free kicks and corners - everyone piles into the box waiting for a long ball.

We don't look for or use space well. We put the onus on the lad with the ball to pick out a team mate even if the team mate is hidden behind opposition players. That's not down to Trap. He probably realised that's how we are brought up in this country and applied a fairly unsophisticated brand of football to, as he saw it, make the best of what he had (not saying he was right btw).

If we think our current limitations are the result of one man then we are doomed to be in the same position in 2-3 years and again 2-3 years after that.

I agree with your point that more needs to be done at underage level in order for the country to produce more technical footballers. This won't happen however until English clubs begin this process also, since many of our best underage talent goes to Britain and thus their development is influenced on what they are teaching them.

However, there are players in this team capable of playing a pass 5-10 yards and moving to give and receive the ball. To be fair, this should not be much of a problem for any footballer playing at the highest level in English football.

I'm not saying one man is responsible for the culture of football in this country. However, he is certainly responsible for how 11 men on a field play and what type of football they can play. That's where my point about clubs like St Pats and Swansea comes in.

Iang87

devotional1993 wrote: »

You should hang around people that actually know what they are talking about so when it comes to Robbie Keane or Irish football.

oh people who have opinions like yourself is it. Sorry you're incapable of seeing another side. I'd assume your one of those who'll stand up and say he's the best player to ever play for ireland aswell


Also the list of games listed above that keane missed. In uor last two qualifying campaigns has he not missed 4 of the most crucial. I may be mistaken here but wasn't the home Armenia game a huge one in the context of the whole outcome of the group.

Look either way I'm not saying he is doing it on purpose it just appears that way sometimes to me anyway, maybe i look for it in keane because sometimes to me it looks like he's not putting in the effort that other players do but you do pay that price to have a goalscorer in your team.

LuckyLloyd

Iang87 wrote: »

oh people who have opinions like yourself is it. Sorry you're incapable of seeing another side. I'd assume your one of those who'll stand up and say he's the best player to ever play for ireland aswell

One of them, certainly.

Iang87

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

One of them, certainly.

Ya you cant deny it but some lads cant see beyond their nose when it comes to Keane maybe its the name who knows

DeanAustin

Iang87 wrote: »

oh people who have opinions like yourself is it. Sorry you're incapable of seeing another side. I'd assume your one of those who'll stand up and say he's the best player to ever play for ireland aswell


Also the list of games listed above that keane missed. In uor last two qualifying campaigns has he not missed 4 of the most crucial. I may be mistaken here but wasn't the home Armenia game a huge one in the context of the whole outcome of the group.

Look either way I'm not saying he is doing it on purpose it just appears that way sometimes to me anyway, maybe i look for it in keane because sometimes to me it looks like he's not putting in the effort that other players do but you do pay that price to have a goalscorer in your team.

You're incapable of forming a coherent opinion based on the facts by the sounds of it.

You think Keane could have been ducking Armenia? Not Russia home or away but Armenia at home?

The theory has been rubbished by the post above that shows the games that Keane has missed. Christ, I understand (but don't agree with) a lot of the criticism of Keane but for anyone to suggest that our record goalscorer by an incredible distance, the man who has turned out for Ireland more than anyone else, the man who played the week after his dad died and the man who gets a 13 hour flight to play for us would duck Armenia (or anyone else) is ignorant and disrespectful in the extreme.

SherlockWatson

Iang87 wrote: »

Ya you cant deny it but some lads cant see beyond their nose when it comes to Keane maybe its the name who knows

You think people like him because of his name?




Not because he's one of the best players to ever play for us, a player that has given his all for his country, and scored a remarkable amount of goals in that time.

Of course not, it's his name :rolleyes:




To suggest that he is dodging games is definitely one of the most ludicrous suggestions I have ever seen.

Iang87

SherlockWatson wrote: »

You think people like him because of his name?




Not because he's one of the best players to ever play for us, a player that has given his all for his country, and scored a remarkable amount of goals in that time.

Of course not, it's his name :rolleyes:




To suggest that he is dodging games is definitely one of the most ludicrous suggestions I have ever seen.

Jesus lad the name comment was a joke. If you cant see that you should probably close the internet before you get a nosebleed.

Its just a point i never said he's definitely doing it. Actually you know what I agree with whatever it is you guys say you're right Keane for Pope/president/manager whichever.


Sarcasm again there