Wrong Change Scam

ziedth

Having worked 10 years in retail I can hand on heart say that it's about as far from a "scam" as you can get. Sure i can imagine some people chance their arm and try to screw you for change but till errors just happen to everyone at some point while some people just don't have a head for tills.

I managed a girl that at least twice a month her till would be +/- €30 or more after a six hour shift when €5 would be seen as too much. She just couldn't get the hang of it. It's not an excuse of course and she was eventually moved into a different section.

It just happens, what your saying is equal to comparing when people accidentally pit an extra few cent into the tank getting petrol and saying they are trying to scam the garage.

Roquentin

ziedth wrote: »

Having worked 10 years in retail I can hand on heart say that it's about as far from a "scam" as you can get. Sure i can imagine some people chance their arm and try to screw you for change but till errors just happen to everyone at some point while some people just don't have a head for tills.

I managed a girl that at least twice a month her till would be +/- €30 or more after a six hour shift when €5 would be seen as too much. She just couldn't get the hang of it. It's not an excuse of course and she was eventually moved into a different section.

It just happens, what your saying is equal to comparing when people accidentally pit an extra few cent into the tank getting petrol and saying they are trying to scam the garage.

shes now working for the department of finance:pac:

cloud493

I work in retail also and I can tell you at least in my workplace this isn't an organised scam. We have to be bang on the money with change, and receipts, since most people are much louder about missing change than you are. So we barely get the luxury of an honest mistake.

rubadub

Dilan Rhythmic Goggles wrote: »

Are there any decent, honest people employed in retail any more? Reading this, it appears not.

It appears there are some very thin-skinned people employed nowadays...

In pubs I would only hand over a 50 if it was not that busy and early in the night. And might have it folded so I can unfold it infront of them, so its clear I knew what it was. Also unfolding it could make it more visible to CCTV if it was to be investigated.

I got short changed just a few euro in a local supermarket and do believe it was on purpose, since when I went back they immediately handed it over, with absolutely no surprise or questioning at all.

Roquentin

rubadub wrote: »

It appears there are some very thin-skinned people employed nowadays...

In pubs I would only hand over a 50 if it was not that busy and early in the night. And might have it folded so I can unfold it infront of them, so its clear I knew what it was. Also unfolding it could make it more visible to CCTV if it was to be investigated.

I got short changed just a few euro in a local supermarket and do believe it was on purpose, since when I went back they immediately handed it over, with absolutely no surprise or questioning at all.

i say they catch a load of people on a saturday night when people are drunk and so on.

Miaireland

I have been given the wrong change a couple of times. Once the owner of the shop checked the cctv there and then and saw that I had given a fifty rather than twenty like the person behind the counter thought. The other time the girl asked me did I have a smaller note than the one I gave her and forgot to return the larger note. Her workmate standing behind her pointed out her mistake.

IN both cases it was in garage shops and people were dropping in money for petrol rather than waiting their turn so the staff member was distracted.

I never talk on my phone when I am paying or talk to someone else and I also not say what note I am giving them. It makes things easier all round.

Melendez

This post has been deleted.

Mick Murdock

Spent 9 years working and managing in busy retail shops. This is not a scam - it's simple human error and happens all the time.

There are much simpler ways to steal in a retail environment. You'd have to be a complete moron to short change customers on a regular basis. After a couple of complaints your CCTV would be monitored and checked.

As somebody else said, stealing from your employer is a lot easier and is commonplace.

UCDVet

Mick Murdock wrote: »

Spent 9 years working and managing in busy retail shops. This is not a scam - it's simple human error and happens all the time.

There are much simpler ways to steal in a retail environment. You'd have to be a complete moron to short change customers on a regular basis. After a couple of complaints your CCTV would be monitored and checked.

As somebody else said, stealing from your employer is a lot easier and is commonplace.

Can you give an example?

I worked the register at a McDonald's when I was younger. Sure, I could steal *food*, but that doesn't really help me much. If I were a thief, I wouldn't want 500 Big Macs - I'd want money. I had access to the registers - but they are 'smart' registers - they have tiny computers that keeps track of the orders I punch in and the money I was given. At any point in time, the manager could see on her computer screen in the back office, how much money should be in each till.

If someone orders a '#1 meal' - I can't punch in something cheaper - the guys in the back will prepare whatever I punch into the system. People will FLIP OUT if you mess up their order. I also can't add an extra item either - because the system will expect that extra amount to be in the till. So, I have to put in the orders correctly.

If I just take some money out of the register - I'll be short at the end of my shift, and I'll be in trouble. If I'm a euro or two short, ONCE, it's okay. But if it happens regularly, I'd be fired. Like 1-2 euro short, per month, would be enough to get fired.

The only way I could steal money, would be to short change the customers. They order X, I enter X into the system, and put the correct amount into the til. My manager is happy. The number match up. The customer gets the food they ordered - and I hand them back their change, minus 50c. Most people don't count their change. Especially when the restaurant is busy.

The registers have different sections for each type of coin - all I need to do is drop the 50c I was meant to give to the customer, into the box with the 10c pieces. Later, when we're not busy and/or when the manager goes on his smoke break - while making change for a customer - I just need to pick up the extra coins, in my palm, hold his change with my fingers - give him the change, keeping my extra money in my palm, turn away from the camera, discreetly drop the money into my pocket. Also, keep in mind, NOBODY looks at the CCTV footage....unless there is a problem. And, if a customer notices, I just apologize. And, at that point in time, I haven't taken the money - I just dropped it back into the register instead of giving it to the customer. If the customer flipped out, demanded my manager watch the CCTV - they'd just see an honest mistake. I wouldn't take the money until later.

Customers are either going to notice and say, 'wait, i need my change' and then I'd apologize and give it to them. Nobody is going to demand to talk to a manager over something like that. I'm friendly, I'm nice, I make eye contact, I apologize. Honest mistake. If they don't notice, they're never coming back to complain.

25 customers per hour is a conservative estimate for a busy shift. If you wait for someone who gives you a big bill to break - if you short them 1 eur or .5 they aren't going to notice.

If you make 8.65 per hour - stealing 1.00 per hour - is an 11% raise! Most people would love to get a 3% raise in this economy, and a 5% is raise is meant to be a great thing. Well, you can double that - by dropping one coin every two hours. If you consider taxes (this stolen money is tax free!) the benefits of stealing are huge. Even just a small amount - 1 customer an hour getting short changed a euro - is a very, very significant increase in my wages.

And, if someone does notice, you just don't do it for the rest of the day.

Even better - when I worked, we had two managers, and the big shot 'restaurant manger'. So, really, I had three bosses. If boss A was nearby when a customer said, 'Oh - I think you gave me the wrong change' - you can apologize, stop doing it for the rest of the day, but tomorrow, you'd have boss B.

Boss A, Boss B, and Boss C don't exactly get together every day and share notes about the time UCDVet accidentally didn't give a lady her correct change. All I have to do is make sure it's not frequent enough to be a problem, and since I'm reasonably well spoken, friendly, respectful, and most importantly, show up on time and do my job - they'll all be happy to give me the benefit of doubt.

Maybe it's different where you work - but short changing customers was the only feasible way for employees to steal money, that I could see.

Greenmachine

Maybe we could start putting bar-codes on notes. Imagine the risk there, is that till operatosr could get complacent about checking the legitimacy of the note.

Mick Murdock

UCDVet wrote: »

Can you give an example?

I worked the register at a McDonald's when I was younger. Sure, I could steal *food*, but that doesn't really help me much. If I were a thief, I wouldn't want 500 Big Macs - I'd want money. I had access to the registers - but they are 'smart' registers - they have tiny computers that keeps track of the orders I punch in and the money I was given. At any point in time, the manager could see on her computer screen in the back office, how much money should be in each till.

If someone orders a '#1 meal' - I can't punch in something cheaper - the guys in the back will prepare whatever I punch into the system. People will FLIP OUT if you mess up their order. I also can't add an extra item either - because the system will expect that extra amount to be in the till. So, I have to put in the orders correctly.

If I just take some money out of the register - I'll be short at the end of my shift, and I'll be in trouble. If I'm a euro or two short, ONCE, it's okay. But if it happens regularly, I'd be fired. Like 1-2 euro short, per month, would be enough to get fired.

The only way I could steal money, would be to short change the customers. They order X, I enter X into the system, and put the correct amount into the til. My manager is happy. The number match up. The customer gets the food they ordered - and I hand them back their change, minus 50c. Most people don't count their change. Especially when the restaurant is busy.

The registers have different sections for each type of coin - all I need to do is drop the 50c I was meant to give to the customer, into the box with the 10c pieces. Later, when we're not busy and/or when the manager goes on his smoke break - while making change for a customer - I just need to pick up the extra coins, in my palm, hold his change with my fingers - give him the change, keeping my extra money in my palm, turn away from the camera, discreetly drop the money into my pocket. Also, keep in mind, NOBODY looks at the CCTV footage....unless there is a problem. And, if a customer notices, I just apologize. And, at that point in time, I haven't taken the money - I just dropped it back into the register instead of giving it to the customer. If the customer flipped out, demanded my manager watch the CCTV - they'd just see an honest mistake. I wouldn't take the money until later.

Customers are either going to notice and say, 'wait, i need my change' and then I'd apologize and give it to them. Nobody is going to demand to talk to a manager over something like that. I'm friendly, I'm nice, I make eye contact, I apologize. Honest mistake. If they don't notice, they're never coming back to complain.

25 customers per hour is a conservative estimate for a busy shift. If you wait for someone who gives you a big bill to break - if you short them 1 eur or .5 they aren't going to notice.

If you make 8.65 per hour - stealing 1.00 per hour - is an 11% raise! Most people would love to get a 3% raise in this economy, and a 5% is raise is meant to be a great thing. Well, you can double that - by dropping one coin every two hours. If you consider taxes (this stolen money is tax free!) the benefits of stealing are huge. Even just a small amount - 1 customer an hour getting short changed a euro - is a very, very significant increase in my wages.

And, if someone does notice, you just don't do it for the rest of the day.

Even better - when I worked, we had two managers, and the big shot 'restaurant manger'. So, really, I had three bosses. If boss A was nearby when a customer said, 'Oh - I think you gave me the wrong change' - you can apologize, stop doing it for the rest of the day, but tomorrow, you'd have boss B.

Boss A, Boss B, and Boss C don't exactly get together every day and share notes about the time UCDVet accidentally didn't give a lady her correct change. All I have to do is make sure it's not frequent enough to be a problem, and since I'm reasonably well spoken, friendly, respectful, and most importantly, show up on time and do my job - they'll all be happy to give me the benefit of doubt.

Maybe it's different where you work - but short changing customers was the only feasible way for employees to steal money, that I could see.

Stealing from McDonalds/Supermacs etc. is pretty much impossible for all the reasons you have listed. The cash register is key to the customer getting food! It's about as fool proof a system as you'd find anywhere.

I had 4 employees over the years that we had to fire and many more who were suspected of stealing in one form or another - one of them was an assistant manager, one a long time member of staff and two were part time students.

The complexity of their stealing varied but I'll give you a couple of examples. A store selling IT/electronic equipment.

Assistant manager who's job it is to check staffs bags and belongings at the end of each shift steals item to the value of €100. Item is then returned by one of his friends/family when he's working and they're issued a refund. Do that a few times a week and you're not far off doubling your salary. When it starts becoming a pattern, similar items, similar times the pos software flagged it. Low and behold it's the same few people returning items every time and we figure out he's involved with it. Stock taking obviously shows missing items but shoplifting is rife in all levels of retail and it's hard to pin point exactly what's gone where.. CCTV is only useful if it's heavily monitored.


Example 2. Long term member of staff issuing customers receipts for different items than they bought. Always small amounts like €10 or less and things that weren't likely to be returned. Nobody checks their receipt and if they did they would assume it was a mistake. He pocketed the rest. Think he had a gambling addiction so felt sorry for him..

Younger lads were stealing small items that you could put in your pockets. A 32gb pen drive went for a pretty penny at one point.

It's not rocket science but if they were smarter they'd have got away with it for longer..

Roquentin

im going demand my 45 cent back........

in fairness i never count the small change and tbh honest when i get small change back i put it in the charity boxes

NIMAN

You could always say "thats a 20", or "thats a 10" out loud when you are handing over a note!!

That way they know you know and are watching them.;)

Roquentin

NIMAN wrote: »

You could always say "thats a 20", or "thats a 10" out loud when you are handing over a note!!

That way they know you know and are watching them.;)

ITS A TWENTY next time next time

UCDVet

Mick Murdock wrote: »

Stealing from McDonalds/Supermacs etc. is pretty much impossible for all the reasons you have listed. The cash register is key to the customer getting food! It's about as fool proof a system as you'd find anywhere.

I had 4 employees over the years that we had to fire and many more who were suspected of stealing in one form or another - one of them was an assistant manager, one a long time member of staff and two were part time students.

The complexity of their stealing varied but I'll give you a couple of examples. A store selling IT/electronic equipment.

Assistant manager who's job it is to check staffs bags and belongings at the end of each shift steals item to the value of €100. Item is then returned by one of his friends/family when he's working and they're issued a refund. Do that a few times a week and you're not far off doubling your salary. When it starts becoming a pattern, similar items, similar times the pos software flagged it. Low and behold it's the same few people returning items every time and we figure out he's involved with it. Stock taking obviously shows missing items but shoplifting is rife in all levels of retail and it's hard to pin point exactly what's gone where.. CCTV is only useful if it's heavily monitored.


Example 2. Long term member of staff issuing customers receipts for different items than they bought. Always small amounts like €10 or less and things that weren't likely to be returned. Nobody checks their receipt and if they did they would assume it was a mistake. He pocketed the rest. Think he had a gambling addiction so felt sorry for him..

Younger lads were stealing small items that you could put in your pockets. A 32gb pen drive went for a pretty penny at one point.

It's not rocket science but if they were smarter they'd have got away with it for longer..

The thing is - if you steal an item from an electronics store - the actual inventory won't match with the numbers in the system. It will be noticed, sooner or later.

They won't know who is taking stuff, they'll just know someone is. And then they start to investigate.

If you short change the customer, the boss/the company never know. It's just individual customers who aren't going to do anything.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would be a lot easier to short change the odd customer, than to steal an actual item, fake a receipt, then return the item.

Roquentin

UCDVet wrote: »

The thing is - if you steal an item from an electronics store - the actual inventory won't match with the numbers in the system. It will be noticed, sooner or later.

They won't know who is taking stuff, they'll just know someone is. And then they start to investigate.

If you short change the customer, the boss/the company never know. It's just individual customers who aren't going to do anything.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it would be a lot easier to short change the odd customer, than to steal an actual item, fake a receipt, then return the item.

what would you be aiming for at the end of the day? as in you nick 10,20 cent of every customer or every second customer and that would leave with with how much......is it worthwhile?

Fred Swanson

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UCDVet

Roquentin wrote: »

what would you be aiming for at the end of the day? as in you nick 10,20 cent of every customer or every second customer and that would leave with with how much......is it worthwhile?

I'd only bother with 1 and 2 euro pieces. And I'd go for like one every twenty or thirty customers. Two euro per hour.

Someone can help me on the maths - but if you were a cashier at McDonalds and making just over minimum wage - say 8.80 an hour, 15 hours per week - honestly you'd earn 132 per week. Then you'd have taxes - and you'd probably get....what, 100-110? Say 110.

If you swipe an extra two euro per hour, that's 30 euro, tax free.
That's almost a 30% increase in salary.

I'm not *advocating* that people do this. I just don't think it's so unreasonable to think that some cashiers are doing this intentionally. My original point was that I've NEVER been given too much money. And whenever I do notice that I've been given too little, the cashier *always* seems to agree. 'Oh right, sorry, here you are.' It seems suspect to me.

It's also worth pointing out that shoppers have spent a lot of time perfecting ways of getting extra money from a cashier. As ridiculous as it sounds - we know that people really do go to great lengths to cheat the system....I'm not sure it's fair to assume that no cashier is doing this.

(these are examples of the reverse - customers trying to get more change from the cashier, by confusing them)
http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/off-topic-31/someone-just-tried-to-change-scam-me-at-work-542366/
http://www.fraudtech.org/short_change.htm
http://crimestoppers.ca/quick-cash-scam/
http://articles.kspr.com/2010-06-16/gas-station-clerk_24123011

Melendez

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monkey8

paranoid much op?

You say its happened you twice in two different places!

If you were to count up the number of times you have been given change in your life and have only been given the wrong change two times I'd say you are doing alright!

UCDVet

monkey8 wrote: »

paranoid much op?

You say its happened you twice in two different places!

If you were to count up the number of times you have been given change in your life and have only been given the wrong change two times I'd say you are doing alright!

Realistically - you need to apply the likelihood that the op notices. I can only speak from my experiences - but when I was a cashier, almost nobody counted their change. As a customer, (until recently, like the last ~2 years) I never counted my change either.

The odds of me noticing the amount being wrong was very slim. It might be hours later, if I emptied my pockets and had the receipt and the change, I might notice then.

Let's say you count the change 10% of the time, and you go shopping twice per week. In a year - you've gone shopping 110 times, but you've only counted the change 11 times. If you notice you are short *once per year* that means that, 9% of the time that you count, you were short. Which means, without additional information, the rational thing is to assume the 11 times you counted were a representative sample of the 110 times you shopped. That means 9% of 110 times you were given the wrong amount.

That's like 10 times per year.

Noticing being short changed once per year - means you (almost certainly) were short changed 10 times per year, if you count 10% of the time. If you count 5% of the time and notice short change 1 time per year, it probably happened 20 times that year.

It's probably not a huge amount of money, and maybe some people don't care. 'I'd rather lose 20 euro per year than stand at the counter and double check the maths each time I shop' - and that's fair enough. But my point is, if you notice it rarely, for most people, that means it is happening frequently.

monkey8

UCDVet wrote: »

Noticing being short changed once per year - means you (almost certainly) were short changed 10 times per year, if you count 10% of the time. If you count 5% of the time and notice short change 1 time per year, it probably happened 20 times that year.

yes but the op would think that he was scammed 20 times rather than it being human error!!

UCDVet

monkey8 wrote: »

yes but the op would think that he was scammed 20 times rather than it being human error!!

The thing is - if it is human error, you'd expect that 50% of the time, you'd be given extra change, and 50% of the time you'd be missing change. It's just as easy to take two coins and count one in your head as it is to count two and take one.

If you are given less change more frequently than you are given more, it would strongly suggest that dishonest cashiers are skewing the numbers in their favour.

In my experience - while it's relatively uncommon to happen at all - I'm many times more likely to be given an incorrect amount that is too small than one that is too large. To me, that suggests that the OP might be right.

monkey8

UCDVet wrote: »

The thing is - if it is human error, you'd expect that 50% of the time, you'd be given extra change, and 50% of the time you'd be missing change. It's just as easy to take two coins and count one in your head as it is to count two and take one.

If you are given less change more frequently than you are given more, it would strongly suggest that dishonest cashiers are skewing the numbers in their favour.

In my experience - while it's relatively uncommon to happen at all - I'm many times more likely to be given an incorrect amount that is too small than one that is too large. To me, that suggests that the OP might be right.

I have often been given too much change rather than been short changed.

Yourself and the op should check out the conspiracy forum.

UCDVet

monkey8 wrote: »

I have often been given too much change rather than been short changed.

Yourself and the op should check out the conspiracy forum.

I thought conspiracies implied groups (usually large and/or powerful groups) conspiring in some grand way. It's hardly a conspiracy if someone takes a coins out of your pocket.

P. Breathnach

monkey8 wrote: »

I have often been given too much change rather than been short changed....

The odds are, if a cashier is behaving honestly (and I believe that the large majorty of them do) you have about the same chance of being over-changed as short-changed. That's what happens with me. Cashiers are often very surprised when I hand back any excess change - which suggests to me that many people choose not to.

Things I do as a matter of course: (a) pay attention when I am involved in a payment transaction; (b) keep the change in clear view of the cashier while I check it.

Roquentin

monkey8 wrote: »

I have often been given too much change rather than been short changed.

Yourself and the op should check out the conspiracy forum.

ok theres an alien trying to steal my brains......is that paranoid enough for you

Ken.

monkey8 wrote: »

I have often been given too much change rather than been short changed.

Yourself and the op should check out the conspiracy forum.

That extra change is the one with the tracking chip in it so the NSA know where you are. Shop staff are paid to slip it to you

Greenmachine

In the opposite guise. I was out one night with a friend, when he bumped into an acquaintance of his. He went to the bar to get a wrong in. His ordered the drinks, 3 pints as it happened, cash in hand. Hands over the cash and gets his change. Could not see where the trick was. He had a €10 note in his hand and got change back for a €50, there was no sleight of hand, or misleading that I detected. Now €10 would even pay for the drinks, but somehow he got the drinks and €30 odd in change.

monkey8

Roquentin wrote: »

ok theres an alien trying to steal my brains......is that paranoid enough for you

this thread is enough for me.

Out of curiosity, why are you so convinced that it was a scam rather than human error?