Am I over reacting?

angelfire9

My daughter started 1st year this September and over all she loves it
However, I review her homework and the school do tests in every subject every week and I go over them with her and I found something that I haven't pointed out to my daughter but worries the living day lights out of me
Her business studies teacher decided that the best way to introduce them to business studies was to do a quick run through on the principles of business I.e. supply & demand
How budgets work
Cash flows

Fine, no problem with that
She provided them with a budget forecast and asked them to review it and give examples of cash inflows and outflows fine no problem with that

My problem is, from an accountancy perspective the budget was wrong
I mean the FIGURES were wrong, and the method was wrong, consistently incorrectly calculated
If you have €1000 income per month
And you spend €750 in January then you have €250 carried forward into February
So you have opening cash of €250 income of €1000 and expenses of €800 at the end of February you have €450 in cash to carry forward
€250+1000-800 =450
But her teacher was disregarding this amount :mad:

A one off mistake in calculation can happen to anyone but this was neither a budget nor a cash flow

This happened on Friday, she has to hand in her homework on Tuesday (she doesn't have Bus Studies tomorrow) so I told her to leave it and I would go through it with her tomorrow
I am thinking of going into the school & talking to the teacher

This would be the second time I have corrected this teacher on something (she marked a line in one of my daughters exams as incorrect last week when the answer was actually 100% right per the definition in her book and per my knowledge) on that occasion I wrote a polite little note and put it in an envelope for my daughter to hand to the teacher and the end of her class
I got a note back saying AND I QUOTE "**** failed to demonstrate an understanding of the topic, a dictionary definition does not an A student make. Please do not undermine my teaching in future, should you wish to discuss my teaching methods please make an appointment"


I should add I am an accountant by profession so I am 100% confident that I am in the right as far as technically doing accounts but I don't want to piss off the teacher 6 weeks into the school year
On the other hand I don't want my daughter being taught incorrectly

This teacher was not in the school in my time but she's not brand new either

Suggestions please

GlowStick

I completely understand what you're saying and it's frustrating to have a teacher like that. Maybe if you leave it for awhile so as not to get on her bad side and keep an eye on her. Give her another month or so and in the mean time, take note of any mistakes and then you'll be better equipped to have a proper chat with her and with all the facts. Is there a parent teacher meeting this side of Christmas? Or are they normally later on in the year?

Noccy_Mondy

Don't be so quick to be correcting the teacher either, fair enough you may be right, the teacher will only take it out on your child!

podger456

I think it's time to take her up on her offer and arrange a meeting to discuss her teaching methods. If you're right it's pretty sloppy on her part and confusing to the children. Any hint oh her picking on your child after straight to the principal.

angelfire9

Parent teacher meeting is in February

The first few monts of Bus Studies sets the foundation for the entire course
If the woman can't do a simple budget how is she going to teach profit & loss accounts and balance sheets

I have absolutely no qualms about meeting the principal if it comes down to that as her principal is one of my old teachers and we got on pretty well

I don't want to swan in to the school and say "Listen you're doing the accountancy arseways" but leaving out over €2000 in a yearly budget is pretty
A) stupid
something you'd be crucified on in an exam

Academically my daughter is very bright would I be better off teaching her the course at home and getting her excused from Bus Studies at school?
Or maybe look to switching classes?

evolving_doors

angelfire9 wrote: »

My daughter started 1st year this September and over all she loves it
However, I review her homework and the school do tests in every subject every week and I go over them with her and I found something that I haven't pointed out to my daughter but worries the living day lights out of me
Her business studies teacher decided that the best way to introduce them to business studies was to do a quick run through on the principles of business I.e. supply & demand
How budgets work
Cash flows
Fine, no problem with that
She provided them with a budget forecast and asked them to review it and give examples of cash inflows and outflows fine no problem with that

My problem is, from an accountancy perspective the budget was wrong
I mean the FIGURES were wrong, and the method was wrong, consistently incorrectly calculated
If you have €1000 income per month
And you spend €750 in January then you have €250 carried forward into February
So you have opening cash of €250 income of €1000 and expenses of €800 at the end of February you have €450 in cash to carry forward
€250+1000-800 =450
But her teacher was disregarding this amount :mad:

A one off mistake in calculation can happen to anyone but this was neither a budget nor a cash flow

This happened on Friday, she has to hand in her homework on Tuesday (she doesn't have Bus Studies tomorrow) so I told her to leave it and I would go through it with her tomorrow
I am thinking of going into the school & talking to the teacher

This would be the second time I have corrected this teacher on something (she marked a line in one of my daughters exams as incorrect last week when the answer was actually 100% right per the definition in her book and per my knowledge) on that occasion I wrote a polite little note and put it in an envelope for my daughter to hand to the teacher and the end of her class
I got a note back saying AND I QUOTE "**** failed to demonstrate an understanding of the topic, a dictionary definition does not an A student make. Please do not undermine my teaching in future, should you wish to discuss my teaching methods please make an appointment"

I should add I am an accountant by profession so I am 100% confident that I am in the right as far as technically doing accounts but I don't want to piss off the teacher 6 weeks into the school year
On the other hand I don't want my daughter being taught incorrectly

This teacher was not in the school in my time but she's not brand new either

Suggestions please

Your first point regarding the method of carrying forward, is this your working of the answer? It would be helpful if you could state the actual question asked though. How did the teacher account for the missing € 250?

2nd point regarding your daughter giving a textbook answer: were they instructed to phrase it in their own words, or verbatim from the book. Was there an example required? How did the answer that the teacher gave after correcting the test differ to your daughters?

You would probably need to make an appt. With the teacher to clear it up as there seems to be a breakdown in communication. Thats if the teacher is amenable of course.

angelfire9

Armelodie wrote: »

Your first point regarding the method of carrying forward, is this your working of the answer? It would be helpful if you could state the actual question asked though. How did the teacher account for the missing € 250?

2nd point regarding your daughter giving a textbook answer: were they instructed to phrase it in their own words, or verbatim from the book. Was there an example required? How did the answer that the teacher gave after correcting the test differ to your daughters?

You would probably need to make an appt. With the teacher to clear it up as there seems to be a breakdown in communication. Thats if the teacher is amenable of course.

The budget question was a basic one
Mary &Jack have earnings of €800 per month in wages
€200 per month in child benefit
In June and July they rent a room to Spanish students for 100 a month
Their expenses were listed monthly like petrol, food, entertainment, childcare
There were things like house insurance is payable in July of 300 and motor tax for jacks car is 150 each September
The teacher did the actual budget for Jan, Feb, Mar and the students had to do the rest of the year and identify what the fixed income was per month & what was variable and what were fixed & what were discretionary expenses

You can't just disregard the money left over at the end of the month :eek:
This is not ME this is ACCOUNTANCY


As for the section question, I can't find the sheet but it was a list of words with 2 lines blank below them and they had to "explain the words"

spurious

Make an appointment to see the teacher, as he/she suggested.

banbhaaifric

I'd hold fire and get your daughter to hand in her homework with the correct answer and see what happens. Could be she slipped up when setting the question. Maybe she is looking to see how they will deal with the monthly surpluses? It's hard to know without seeing how she corrects your daughter's homework. If the teacher marks it as incorrect then you certainly have a grievance you can bring.

Re the 'explain' question, it could be your daughter's definition was too close to the one in the book, i.e. she didn't explain it in her own words?

I'd advise having a little more ammo under your belt anyway before you confront her as she could get nasty.

In our house we call it the 'righteous anger of the wrong'

Gmol

How about you get your daughter to address the surplus by creating a 'savings' account for Jan. Then the teacher may not feel undermined

Kerry_2008

Maybe the teacher s only giving them the basics before going into carry over etc. Making sure they can add and subtract in the right places. And will build on the example in the next few weeks. Just because your an accountant doesn't mean you know how to begin te building blocks of teaching business.

It could very well be in the next few weeks te teacher will say. Remember our accounting question well now we will look at what happens the money left over or missing every month.

You don't want to hit kids with everything once. Especially in first year as their maths might nite be great a d you want to make sure they can do basic enter and stuff first.

As for the other question. Simple verbatim wording from text book doesn't demonstrate understanding. Just shows you child can read

Bazinga_N

There's a lot of teachers like this out there. They just assume their right because they're a teacher. It's really frustrating from a student's point of view. I had a brilliant teacher for Business Studies and by far Accounting is the most difficult part. She should really be taught correctly.

Make an appointment to see the teacher. Be sure to mention you're a qualified accountant and actually know what you're talking about. A teacher can't deny that.

Overall, remember that teacher won't be correcting your daughter's JC exam. Definitions from the book and correct methods of budgeting will make for a good grade in 2016.

evolving_doors

Bazinga_N wrote: »

There's a lot of teachers like this out there. They just assume their right because they're a teacher.......

Meh! you could say the same about parents..at the end of the day who knows most as to what went on in class..Teacher, Student or Parent?

I'd really like to hear what the follow up is after the meeting..

angelfire9

Will make an appointment in the morning and let ye know

happywithlife

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Kerry_2008 wrote: »

Maybe the teacher s only giving them the basics before going into carry over etc. Making sure they can add and subtract in the right places. And will build on the example in the next few weeks. Just because your an accountant doesn't mean you know how to begin te building blocks of teaching business.

It could very well be in the next few weeks te teacher will say. Remember our accounting question well now we will look at what happens the money left over or missing every month.

You don't want to hit kids with everything once. Especially in first year as their maths might nite be great a d you want to make sure they can do basic enter and stuff first.

As for the other question. Simple verbatim wording from text book doesn't demonstrate understanding. Just shows you child can read

This
It is truly shocking the standard that some kids come into first year with - I personally know kids with a math age of 7/8 in first year. Many classes are no longer streamed in first year so teacher may well need to differentiate in class and may be starting at a very basic level. She may be intending to ramp up the differentiation as time goes by so tbh I'd be inclined to hold back a little. By all means keep an account of 'mistakes' but also be aware you
May not know all the facts pertaining to the class' ability
Are are not a trained teacher so may be unaware of the logistics behind getting a whole class up to speed on a topic...and allowing for all levels of ability/inability at this early stage

happywithlife

Sorry just realised the dates
Did you make an appointment? How did the meeting go?

angelfire9

Finally got to meet the teacher yesterday evening
Daughter completely unimpressed but she will get over it
The teacher is not qualified in any business discipline she's a maths teacher drafted in to teach first years
Not sure if I should be surprised or not I was completely stunned
Apparently she is going to touch on every topic in the 3 year curriculum and the first year business studies exams will be marked by a business teacher so that the best of the 2nd years (next September) get streamed together in the top two classes with the bus teacher that gets best results next two classes will have next best teacher etc etc and this woman will have 1st years again next year

I'm kinda flummoxed as to what I do now
Teach her myself probably
That should be fun! :rolleyes:

evolving_doors

angelfire9 wrote: »

Finally got to meet the teacher yesterday evening
Daughter completely unimpressed but she will get over it
The teacher is not qualified in any business discipline she's a maths teacher drafted in to teach first years
Not sure if I should be surprised or not I was completely stunned
Apparently she is going to touch on every topic in the 3 year curriculum and the first year business studies exams will be marked by a business teacher so that the best of the 2nd years (next September) get streamed together in the top two classes with the bus teacher that gets best results next two classes will have next best teacher etc etc and this woman will have 1st years again next year

I'm kinda flummoxed as to what I do now
Teach her myself probably
That should be fun! :rolleyes:

Soooo..did you find out about the reason she didn't carry over? Did she have a reason or did she admit the 'error'?
If she continuous to teach first years then maybe let the principal or vice know that she should 'liase' with a qualified teacher/mentor a bit more. Or else you could make you concerns known via parents council/bom about procedures for unqualified teachers (mentoring system with qualified teacher at the very least!)

angelfire9

Armelodie wrote: »

Soooo..did you find out about the reason she didn't carry over? Did she have a reason or did she admit the 'error'?
If she continuous to teach first years then maybe let the principal or vice know that she should 'liase' with a qualified teacher/mentor a bit more. Or else you could make you concerns known via parents council/bom about procedures for unqualified teachers (mentoring system with qualified teacher at the very least!)

Oh yeah, sorry :cool:
As regards carrying forward in budgets... She didn't think it was relevant as she was teaching them about fixed & discretionary income & expenses

angelfire9

What should I do?
Talk to principal and or BOM?
Or keep the mouth shut & teach her myself?

happywithlife

I presume the school tried but failed to get a graduated bus st teacher timetabled for the subject. This is a result of the silent cutbacks at second level IMO. Realistically there probably won't be much you can do this yr. the fully qualified teacher will obviously take over next yr by the sounds if it,so personally I'd just keep an eye on it for now.
But it might be an idea before time tabling is sorted out for next year to have the parents council bring your concerns formally before the BOM so that a repeat doesn't happen again in the future.

Digital Society

My friend is a business teacher and shes as dumb as a brush. More common than you think.

Is there not some kind of online calculator that you can reference in the homework. maybe get child to ask the teacher politely that she couldnt understand why the figures dont match up with the online program and ask for an explanation of why they are different.

evolving_doors

Digital Society wrote: »

My friend is a business teacher and shes as dumb as a brush. More common than you think.

Is there not some kind of online calculator that you can reference in the homework. maybe get child to ask the teacher politely that she couldnt understand why the figures dont match up with the online program and ask for an explanation of why they are different.

So basically you are suggesting that the kid goes up to the teacher and references some wonderful online program that is designed for a minute topic in 1st year accountancy. BTW the teacher explained the discrepancy to the parent 3 posts up.

Daft as a brush you say!! More common than you think indeed.

angelfire9

Digital Society wrote: »

My friend is a business teacher and shes as dumb as a brush. More common than you think.

Is there not some kind of online calculator that you can reference in the homework. maybe get child to ask the teacher politely that she couldnt understand why the figures dont match up with the online program and ask for an explanation of why they are different.

Did you miss the bit where I said I was an accountant?
:rolleyes:
It's all sorted now just waiting for 2nd year to start with a real teacher :D

Bananaleaf

angelfire9 wrote: »

Did you miss the bit where I said I was an accountant?
:rolleyes:
It's all sorted now just waiting for 2nd year to start with a real teacher :D

Hmmmm - I REALLY resent your comment about this teacher not being a REAL teacher.

She is not a Business teacher, no. And I would be willing to bet that neither did she take a business class out of choice.

Nobody likes being out of their comfort zone. I am a language teacher. I was given two periods of religion one year on my timetable. I hated every minute of them, didn't want to do them, but I couldn't refuse.

Non permanent teachers, and in some cases even permanent teachers are not in a position to refuse management on issues like this all of the time.

I would imagine that the teacher would rather not teach your daughter either

Bazinga_N

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Hmmmm - I REALLY resent your comment about this teacher not being a REAL teacher.

She is not a Business teacher, no. And I would be willing to bet that neither did she take a business class out of choice.

Nobody likes being out of their comfort zone. I am a language teacher. I was given two periods of religion one year on my timetable. I hated every minute of them, didn't want to do them, but I couldn't refuse.

Non permanent teachers, and in some cases even permanent teachers are not in a position to refuse management on issues like this all of the time.

I would imagine that the teacher would rather not teach your daughter either

In fairness, the Business course is a lot more demanding than the Religion course.

I find it hard to believe that for a subject like business, they'd use an unqualified teacher!

spurious

Bazinga_N wrote: »

In fairness, the Business course is a lot more demanding than the Religion course.

I find it hard to believe that for a subject like business, they'd use an unqualified teacher!

You might be surprised what is going on in schools because of the cuts. Classes have to be taken and schools are not allowed hire the people they need.

In health areas it causes much more obvious effects, people dying etc., but there is as much damage being done in schools.

Bananaleaf

Bazinga_N wrote: »

In fairness, the Business course is a lot more demanding than the Religion course.

I find it hard to believe that for a subject like business, they'd use an unqualified teacher!

Yes, business course is far more demanding. That was my point, though I didn't make it very well I admit.

My point was that I only had 2 classes of religion. They were non exam religion periods too. No pressure whatsoever. I still hated having to plan for them, because I didn't know what I was doing.

I don't know how I would have coped if I was teaching something they would be assessed on.

And I might add, I was delighted to be rid of them this year.

evolving_doors

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Yes, business course is far more demanding. That was my point, though I didn't make it very well I admit.

My point was that I only had 2 classes of religion. They were non exam religion periods too. No pressure whatsoever. I still hated having to plan for them, because I didn't know what I was doing.

I don't know how I would have coped if I was teaching something they would be assessed on.

And I might add, I was delighted to be rid of them this year.

Would you teach business the same way you taught religion if you didn't have the ' pressure' of the exam ? Would you take your subject less seriously the way you did with religion.... Might be something to think about when the junior cert changes... perhaps some of those students would only be sitting in the class as part of a short course... no exam pressure and probably not going to do it for the LC...

Bananaleaf

Armelodie wrote: »

Would you teach business the same way you taught religion if you didn't have the ' pressure' of the exam ? Would you take your subject less seriously the way you did with religion.... Might be something to think about when the junior cert changes... perhaps some of those students would only be sitting in the class as part of a short course... no exam pressure and probably not going to do it for the LC...

I'm not sure whether you are criticising me or merely pointing out the potential pitfalls/benefits of the new JC, but .... To answer your question, yes I would absolutely teach my subject in a different way, if it weren't for the exam.

I am a language teacher, and the way in which language exams are currently designed, a student writes more English than foreign language on the paper. Cue a lot of translation exercises, which is NOT the aim of the communicative approach we are asked to take in the syllabus.

To answer your question specifically about religion, I think you mistook my point about not being worried because there wasno exam as being lazy? Would I teach business the same way I taught religion?

To teach those two classes per week, I went on a short FETAC course myself in the evenings. I also researched topics and designed power points, sourced books, DVDs and sound cloud files to accompany them and assessed the class via a debate in the common area of our school at the end of the year. I did not just sit back and do nothing. And I might add that the teachers actually qualified to teach those classes, were letting their groups just do their homework.

I'm very proud of what I covered as a non religion teacher, but, as I said, and I think if you are honest, you would agree, if I had been teaching them for an exam, despite the fact that I was doing the best job that (a) I could do and (b) any other teacher was, I would still have been very nervous.

vamos!

Cutbacks in action! I am also a language teacher and have taught a number of subjects to different year groups. I actually liked most of the subjects but was really conscious of the fact that I wasn't an expert in the subject and was completely reliant on the books. I suppose the OP has no choice but to teach her daughter how to do this one small thing. A lot of schools allow students to do all of the options in first year and most first year teachers move slowly with the class,as they are learning how to learn. The OP's daughter will be fine.