Chevron training.

Billy Bunting

shane0007 wrote: »

IMHO the 5 day course is only suitable for the re-assessment candidates & many of those add in a few extra days also as everybody benefits from training.

The 5 day I went on was quite honestly shocking, I believe there is a pre-coarse for total Numptys but I 5hit you not at least 50% of the Lads on the coarse had no clue, they ended the coarse tramping up and down to the desk to pick up their “partially” corrected assessment until they had their 100%, all this under the nose of the “official” sent to monitor the exams, the whole thing was a mockery of those who had been in the trade for years and were being forced to pay out a small fortune because circumstances dictated they get the little green triangle or be swamped by the Numptys who do have it.
I’m all for regulation and proper training but we all know this 5/10 day coarse business is not the way to go.

Big Davey

Billy Bunting wrote: »

The 5 day I went on was quite honestly shocking, I believe there is a pre-coarse for total Numptys but I 5hit you not at least 50% of the Lads on the coarse had no clue, they ended the coarse tramping up and down to the desk to pick up their “partially” corrected assessment until they had their 100%, all this under the nose of the “official” sent to monitor the exams, the whole thing was a mockery of those who had been in the trade for years and were being forced to pay out a small fortune because circumstances dictated they get the little green triangle or be swamped by the Numptys who do have it.
I’m all for regulation and proper training but we all know this 5/10 day coarse business is not the way to go.

I have heard of people servicing their own oil boiler (jets etc) as it is not illegal to do so correct ? I have never heard of anybody servicing their own gas boiler as we all know it is illegal. My point is surly a 10 day course is better than nothing at all. I am aware that a competent technician will keep learning throughout his /her whole life as will any other trade and no a 10 day course will not teach you everything. Also after I get my qualification I hope they close the door on the oil servicing too lol I want to be in an exclusive club too :-)

scudo2

shane0007 wrote: »

Not correct. That is for gas. The 10 day oil course is also 10 days in the UK. The courses are not just a basic understanding of the industry but an in depth look at the relevant regs & practices that the technician will come across on a day to day basis. They also give an in depth knowledge of how to find answers quickly within the mind field of regs, so the operative does not have to get confused trying to decipher the correct decision.


As I said previously that ship has already sailed. The OP cannot go that route anymore.

I totaly am in favour of cources and refresher cources. Even if I already know 80% and learn an extra 20% (as an example only!)
Then I come out happy and think I've got value for money.
Its the guys who know nothing and expect to learn everything on a single cource that worries me

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the criteria or requirments to get on an oil cource were still slack ?

And if a person can bluff his way onto an oil cource and pass then there is nothing stoping them going onto gas regardless of their backround once they have OFTEC.

Big Davey

scudo2 wrote: »

I totaly am in favour of cources and refresher cources. Even if I already know 80% and learn an extra 20% (as an example only!)
Then I come out happy and think I've got value for money.
Its the guys who know nothing and expect to learn everything on a single cource that worries me

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the criteria or requirments to get on an oil cource were still slack ?

And if a person can bluff his way onto an oil cource and pass then there is nothing stoping them going onto gas regardless of their backround once they have OFTEC.

Unfortunately for me that door closes on December 31 this year.

Billy Bunting

scudo2 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the criteria or requirments to get on an oil cource were still slack ?

And if a person can bluff his way onto an oil cource and pass then there is nothing stoping them going onto gas regardless of their backround once they have OFTEC.

Thankfully there is no longer a back door into gas, but your right with oil, while you are suppose to have some knowledge in order to get on the coarse we all know at the end of the day the centres need the money and wont turn it away if they have some legitamate way of taking it.

Billy Bunting

Big Davey wrote: »

I have heard of people servicing their own oil boiler (jets etc) as it is not illegal to do so correct ?

Your correct, anyone can work on oil, some even think they know what theyre doing, but the greatest form of learning is time. Oh!! and Shane and this place

scudo2

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Thankfully there is no longer a back door into gas, but your right with oil, while you are suppose to have some knowledge in order to get on the coarse we all know at the end of the day the centres need the money and wont turn it away if they have some legitamate way of taking it.

Thanks Billy.
But my question is that if a person HAS OFTEC then he has compleat axcess to gas cources acording to RGII new criteria for entry . ??
RGII says they take people from a plumbing trade or an OFTEC background.
So is still a back door. Even if its two back doors now!! get oil first then go on to gas.

Billy Bunting

scudo2 wrote: »

Thanks Billy.
But my question is that if a person HAS OFTEC then he has compleat axcess to gas cources acording to RGII new criteria for entry . ??
RGII says they take people from a plumbing trade or an OFTEC background.
So is still a back door. Even if its two back doors now!! get oil first then go on to gas.

Not so, read back, Shane actually posted the new requirements earlier.

shane0007

Billy Bunting wrote: »

The 5 day I went on was quite honestly shocking, I believe there is a pre-coarse for total Numptys but I 5hit you not at least 50% of the Lads on the coarse had no clue, they ended the coarse tramping up and down to the desk to pick up their “partially” corrected assessment until they had their 100%, all this under the nose of the “official” sent to monitor the exams, the whole thing was a mockery of those who had been in the trade for years and were being forced to pay out a small fortune because circumstances dictated they get the little green triangle or be swamped by the Numptys who do have it.
I’m all for regulation and proper training but we all know this 5/10 day coarse business is not the way to go.

You see, that's the fault of the course provider/instructor & not the system. The pass rate for all exams/assessments is 100% correct answers. This is because the exams are open book. You have 2 attempts but in order to get a 2nd attempt, 80% must be achieved in the first attempt. If this is not achieved the candidate can re-sit the exam but only after a minimum of one week has elapsed.
Thems are the rules. If they are not abided, the course instructor has not followed the rules & should be reported to Blueflame.

All candidates go on these courses with IMO limited knowledge. Some less limited than others. But a good instructor can deliver the course content to match each candidates pace. By the end of the course, all candidates should be at similar levels. If not, there is failure either with the instructor or with the candidate. Some extremely excellent technicians have evolved from unusual backgrounds out of the 10 day course.

Billy Bunting

shane0007 wrote: »

Thems are the rules. If they are not abided, the course instructor has not followed the rules & should be reported to Blueflame.

As i said, the official was there, sat along side the instructor during marking, the same official looked on while the lads mingled around the room looking for answers, and i really can't see that this is just on that particular coarse, its because its open book that they get away with it, no one should really fail an open book exam, but time always catches them in the end.
I would love to know what the re-sit rate on these coarses are, now that would tell a story. :cool:

shane0007

Never heard of that before. I would love to know who that official was.
Fail rate would be about 10 - 15% on first attempt.

anthonyos

anyone know when oftec only registered lads will be allowed at oil boilers

shane0007

anthonyos wrote: »

anyone know when oftec only registered lads will be allowed at oil boilers

Honestly, most likely never. OFTEC is not a UK or Irish government body & has no law whatsoever. It would have to be granted authority by the government & even the UK has not done so.
What has a chance of coming in is some sort of Building Control with self certification for OFTEC technicians. There will be a fee process of course, as anything that does come in must have a revenue stream for our ginger leader & co.

Robbie.G

shane0007 wrote: »

Honestly, most likely never. OFTEC is not a UK or Irish government body & has no law whatsoever. It would have to be granted authority by the government & even the UK has not done so.
What has a chance of coming in is some sort of Building Control with self certification for OFTEC technicians. There will be a fee process of course, as anything that does come in must have a revenue stream for our ginger leader & co.

Currently in the uk you don't have to be oftec reg to service and repair oil boilers.

shane0007

scudo2 wrote: »

I totaly am in favour of cources and refresher cources. Even if I already know 80% and learn an extra 20% (as an example only!)
Then I come out happy and think I've got value for money.
Its the guys who know nothing and expect to learn everything on a single cource that worries me.

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it into a fruit salad!
My point being a course can give anybody knowledge. A good course will teach the candidate what to do with that knowledge.

shane0007

Robbie.G wrote: »

Currently in the uk you don't have to be oftec reg to service and repair oil boilers.

Absolutely true. You do not also have to be OFTEC registered to install an oil boiler in the UK either. The difference is an OFTEC registered installer can self-certify their own works. Non-registered installers must pay a fee to their local Building Control Office & they come & inspect to certify the works.

Big Davey

shane0007 wrote: »

Absolutely true. You do not also have to be OFTEC registered to install an oil boiler in the UK either. The difference is an OFTEC registered installer can self-certify their own works. Non-registered installers must pay a fee to their local Building Control Office & they come & inspect to certify the works.

Do you think the oil technicians will ever be a trade only course like the gas ?
On a separate subject I looked in "appliance repair" too and this area is unregulated similar to oil which is very very dangerous in my opinion anybody agree or disagree with me ? Are there any plans to regulate this industry in the future do people think ?

K.Flyer

anthonyos wrote: »

anyone know when oftec only registered lads will be allowed at oil boilers

It will only happen when there is a serious incident that high-lights training / knowledge shortfalls with some of the people servicing boilers.
Because most oil boilers are outside, the C.O. risk to someone is a bit lower, but nonetheless it is still a danger and needs to be kept in check using a Flue Gas Analyser. I would think that the days of the oily rag and dustpan service on oil boilers are numbered, but regulation is not going to happen today or tomorrow unfortunately.

shane0007

Big Davey wrote: »

Do you think the oil technicians will ever be a trade only course like the gas ?

Personally I don't think so, but I would love to see it come in.

Big Davey wrote: »

On a separate subject I looked in "appliance repair" too and this area is unregulated similar to oil which is very very dangerous in my opinion anybody agree or disagree with me ? Are there any plans to regulate this industry in the future do people think ?

If it's a gas appliance it comes under the existing gas regs, etc.
For non-gas appliances, it is unregulated. IMO to do a proper domestic appliance repair course, the only decent ones available are only in the UK. Definitely a busy industry to get involved in, but I think you would need the gas side of it too.

Big Davey

shane0007 wrote: »

Personally I don't think so, but I would love to see it come in.



If it's a gas appliance it comes under the existing gas regs, etc.
For non-gas appliances, it is unregulated. IMO to do a proper domestic appliance repair course, the only decent ones available are only in the UK. Definitely a busy industry to get involved in, but I think you would need the gas side of it too.

A friend did the 5 day chevron course and started fixing appliances 2 weeks later I think it can also depend on how handy or sharp the trainee is but seriously no regulation lol do we have to wait on a death or serious injury ? I think there should be greater checks on lots of different repair industries out there. Are the courses in the uk short or long do you know ? Any in Northern Ireland ? Just wondering.

Big Davey

Also an appliance repair man can fix a gas appliance ie the igniter or timer etc one he does not touch gas or any gas connections or pipes correct ?

shane0007

I think they are a number of weeks. A lot of practical stripping down & re-building of the older & newer types of appliances.
DGOBS has better knowledge on them. I think the best one is run in Yorkshire but I could be wrong.

shane0007

Big Davey wrote: »

Also an appliance repair man can fix a gas appliance ie the igniter or timer etc one he does not touch gas or any gas connections or pipes correct ?

Incorrect as it is illegal for anybody other than a registered gas installer to work on any gas appliance. That means any part of it, as how would you know if the appliance gas side is not affected by a non-gas component. How would know if you are leaving that gas appliance gas sound & gas safe?

Big Davey

shane0007 wrote: »

Incorrect as it is illegal for anybody other than a registered gas installer to work on any gas appliance. That means any part of it, as how would you know if the appliance gas side is not affected by a non-gas component. How would know if you are leaving that gas appliance gas sound & gas safe?

I will be passing this information on to an interested party as he had a different opinion but your statement makes complete sence sure what would be the difference in a cooker or a boiler you don't have to disconnect the gas for a service on a boiler etc

Billy Bunting

Big Davey wrote: »

Also an appliance repair man can fix a gas appliance ie the igniter or timer etc one he does not touch gas or any gas connections or pipes correct ?

Still need to be an RGI.

I live in rural Ireland and work on Oil and Gas, i also do Domestic appliances via training by a Manufacturer, i would imagine 50% of my work is appliances, great to have them to fall back on in the Summer when the others get a bit quiet.

IMHO you cannot learn appliances in 5 days and you would just be a danger to yourself to think otherwise.

anthonyos

what part of the country you in davy

Big Davey

anthonyos wrote: »

what part of the country you in davy

I am in Meath but originally from Dublin so planning to work in either county really.

Big Davey

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Still need to be an RGI.

I live in rural Ireland and work on Oil and Gas, i also do Domestic appliances via training by a Manufacturer, i would imagine 50% of my work is appliances, great to have them to fall back on in the Summer when the others get a bit quiet.

IMHO you cannot learn appliances in 5 days and you would just be a danger to yourself to think otherwise.

Does that mean you only repair appliances from one manufacturer ? I have a similar idea for the future to drop back on appliances in the summer but want to get competent in oil first.

anthonyos

there is an oil boiler course in Dundalk it one evening a week for 10 weeks and it only costs 200 you might learn a bit get some advise on what direction you should go in and prepare you for the oftec if you decide to do it

Big Davey

anthonyos wrote: »

there is an oil boiler course in Dundalk it one evening a week for 10 weeks and it only costs 200 you might learn a bit get some advise on what direction you should go in and prepare you for the oftec if you decide to do it

Will check that out thanks there is a good 10 day course in Louth too I am planning to do that over the chevron one even though it's more than twice the price.

anthonyos

martin Hogan does the oftec in 4 days that's 2 Friday and 2 Saturdays... I think there is a market for repairing apartment pumps cost of a new one is 800 so cash strapped owners will want to repair them plumbers want to replace because its easier than carrying spares or buying a part and it doesn't solve the problem

Billy Bunting

Big Davey wrote: »

Does that mean you only repair appliances from one manufacturer ? .

No, if you are trained on appliances then one's much like another.

These days the more you can do the better chance you have of survival.

Big Davey

Billy Bunting wrote: »

No, if you are trained on appliances then one's much like another.

These days the more you can do the better chance you have of survival.

That's a fact. Adapt or die.

Big Davey

anthonyos wrote: »

martin Hogan does the oftec in 4 days that's 2 Friday and 2 Saturdays... I think there is a market for repairing apartment pumps cost of a new one is 800 so cash strapped owners will want to repair them plumbers want to replace because its easier than carrying spares or buying a part and it doesn't solve the problem

Where's Martin hogan as a matter of interest ? I still feel the 10 day course is the way to go BUT information is power so all advice or opinions are greatly appreciated.

jimf

Billy Bunting wrote: »

No, if you are trained on appliances then one's much like another.

These days the more you can do the better chance you have of survival.

get out the ould speedos billy bit of pole dancin maybe :p

Big Davey

jimf wrote: »

get out the ould speedos billy bit of pole dancin maybe :p

I suppose he is lucky he has his looks to fall back on if he has too :-)

Billy Bunting

jimf wrote: »

get out the ould speedos billy bit of pole dancin maybe :p

Been there done that!! got the video........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d4AhF11POg

jimf

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Been there done that!! got the video........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9d4AhF11POg

that you have

K.Flyer

anthonyos wrote: »

... I think there is a market for repairing apartment pumps cost of a new one is 800 so cash strapped owners will want to repair them plumbers want to replace because its easier than carrying spares or buying a part and it doesn't solve the problem

Over the last 2 - 3 years I have been called out to approx 200+ broken down pumps. Out of that number I have had to replace less than 10 of them, the rest I have repaired on site, most of them fixed within an hour.

Billy Bunting

K.Flyer wrote: »

Over the last 2 - 3 years I have been called out to approx 200+ broken down pumps. Out of that number I have had to replace less than 10 of them, the rest I have repaired on site, most of them fixed within an hour.

Spares readily available? universal ?

scudo2

K.Flyer wrote: »

It will only happen when there is a serious incident that high-lights training / knowledge shortfalls with some of the people servicing boilers.
Because most oil boilers are outside, the C.O. risk to someone is a bit lower, but nonetheless it is still a danger and needs to be kept in check using a Flue Gas Analyser. I would think that the days of the oily rag and dustpan service on oil boilers are numbered, but regulation is not going to happen today or tomorrow unfortunately.

In Douglas, Cork last febuary I had to repair an indoor Firebird SQ with 70% of the fire door board missing !
Co levels were 1800ppm
Clients got a deal off a coupon website for €50. two weeks before.
They only rang me as they thought I did the service and they spotted old lable.
You can imagine what I said as I hadn't been to that house for 7 years.

Thank god they had a co alarm. But what can I do about the "regestered" cowboy.
In oil we have nowhere to report them as nobody was killed .

anthonyos

K.Flyer wrote: »

Over the last 2 - 3 years I have been called out to approx 200+ broken down pumps. Out of that number I have had to replace less than 10 of them, the rest I have repaired on site, most of them fixed within an hour.

do you carry much spares with you im not to familiar with repairing them

K.Flyer

Most of the pumps (95%+) that I get calls to in the Apt complexes are Stuart Turner Negative Heads (usually 330N Model).
For the 330N, I usually carry 2 PCBs (most common item to go and they can be used in a positive head as well as the old ST 55 type models), 2 Capacitors (change them with the PCB but I buy them in Elec wholesaler for less than 1/2 the mod plant price), 2 sets of NRV, 1 pressure switch, 1 flow sensor.
These parts with maybe the exception of the Capacitor and the Pressure Switch are not interchangeable with other pumps.
I get very few calls for Grundfos (does it say something?) and I can pick up parts for them on the way.
If its a Techflow I pass it over to another chap who carries a lot of spares for them and any other pumps we try to repair rather than replace but if they are old and battered its usually better to replace.

Big Davey

K.Flyer wrote: »

Most of the pumps (95%+) that I get calls to in the Apt complexes are Stuart Turner Negative Heads (usually 330N Model).
For the 330N, I usually carry 2 PCBs (most common item to go and they can be used in a positive head as well as the old ST 55 type models), 2 Capacitors (change them with the PCB but I buy them in Elec wholesaler for less than 1/2 the mod plant price), 2 sets of NRV, 1 pressure switch, 1 flow sensor.
These parts with maybe the exception of the Capacitor and the Pressure Switch are not interchangeable with other pumps.
I get very few calls for Grundfos (does it say something?) and I can pick up parts for them on the way.
If its a Techflow I pass it over to another chap who carries a lot of spares for them and any other pumps we try to repair rather than replace but if they are old and battered its usually better to replace.

Fair play you seem to have things sussed out.

Big Davey

Ok guys just to "clarify" there is absolutely NO way for me to get RGI registered to work on gas at this stage there is no "month" course or additional exams references, referees or aptitude test etc etc I would have to spend a year in the uk to get my exams there correct ? If I got the HETAS H003 H004 and OFTEC 50,101,105e,600a I still would not qualify ? Is there anywhere else in Europe that I could do a course in to get qualified ? As you can probably tell I am very pxxxed off not to be able to do this as it is something I really wanted to do and a certain trainer still has the old rules on their website they have not bothered to update it.
With regards to appliance repair which course would be best as this might have to be my second choice. Thanks to all who have helped.

Billy Bunting

As far as the Appliances i would recomend approaching engineers not in your area and ask them if they would be interested in taking on a unpaid trainee (or you maybe willing to pay a fee)for a number of weeks, with appliances its practical experiance you require what you get on the coarse an Engineer can talk you through between jobs,

shane0007

Big Davey wrote: »

Ok guys just to "clarify" there is absolutely NO way for me to get RGI registered to work on gas at this stage there is no "month" course or additional exams references, referees or aptitude test etc etc I would have to spend a year in the uk to get my exams there correct ? If I got the HETAS H003 H004 and OFTEC 50,101,105e,600a I still would not qualify ? Is there anywhere else in Europe that I could do a course in to get qualified ? As you can probably tell I am very pxxxed off not to be able to do this as it is something I really wanted to do and a certain trainer still has the old rules on their website they have not bothered to update it.
With regards to appliance repair which course would be best as this might have to be my second choice. Thanks to all who have helped.

And you did not believe me for what reason? :-)

HETAS is solid fuel. OFTEC is oil. They both provide no route into gas.
The only route you have available is go to Northern Ireland or the UK & do the 6 month City & Guilds full time course followed by a 6 month full time apprenticeship programme, then get certified in the UK.
You can then do a swap over exam for Ireland but this will only be valid for your 5 year certification in the UK. You would need to re-sit all exams both in the UK & Ireland every 5 years.
Or, once you completed the UK certification, do the full GID course here & register here. This would not require the maintenance of the UK Cert. The UK initial cert would be an entry route for the GID.

Big Davey

shane0007 wrote: »

And you did not believe me for what reason? :-)

HETAS is solid fuel. OFTEC is oil. They both provide no route into gas.
The only route you have available is go to Northern Ireland or the UK & do the 6 month City & Guilds full time course followed by a 6 month full time apprenticeship programme, then get certified of the UK.
You can the. Do a swap over exam for Ireland but this will only be valid for your 5 year certification in the UK. You would need to re-sit all exams both in the UK & Ireland every 5 years.
Or, once completed the UK certification, do the full GID course here & register here. This would not require the maintenance of the UK Cert. The UK initial cert would be an entry route for the GID.

I did believe you I just wondered if there was anything we missed and wanted to check one last time.

williewarmer

nonsense. i just finished gis a couple of weeks ago in fas. 3 out of 8 where electricans. the other 4 had no plumbing criteria. other than one lad worked selling pumps. see the fas criteria below. min is oftec 101. but they dont care. bring a letter from a providers you deal with was the criteria.



Based in DUBLIN 10 Course Code BAQ96
Course Description Evening Course
The aim of the course is to upgrade the skills and knowledge of persons in gas safety features, to enable them to work safely on domestic installations and non-domestic gas pipework. This course was designed in order to provide the Irish Gas industry with personnel who are skilled to work safely on domestic installations and non-domestic gas pipework. Topics covered in this Mopdule: Regulations and legislation related to the Gas industry, constituents and properties of natural and liquid petrolum gases, combustion testing, natural draught burners, flues, ventilition requirements, flue tests, routing and installing gas pipe work, installation of LPG cylinders and bulk storage tanks, gas rate, heat input and pipe sizes of various installations, safety features required for gas fired heating systems and procedures when installing domestic central heating system.

Course Certification
FETAC Certificate in: Gas Installation - Safety 01A

Modules:
Gas Installation - Safety - Evening
Requirements
Applicants must have reached the current statutory leaving age.
Any one of the following: 1. National Craft Certificate in allied trade/European equivalent of NCC. 2. City & Guilds Certificate (Advanced) in allied trade. 3. Department of Education Snr. Certificate in allied trade. 4. Completion and Apprenticeship Certificate. (Anco/FAS) 5. OFTEC/IOI Certificate (issued UKAS)
The ability to communicate with customers effectively and pleasantly.
Post apprenticeship experience is desirable.
Ability to work at heights desirable. A full class B driving licence is desirable.
Selection Criteria
Details Min Standard Required
Other Criteria: Proof of related trade cert/union card/1 year experience and a letter of Intro from gas company (appointed signatory) or OFFTEC 101.
Start Date: 05/11/2013

End Date: 10/12/2013

Duration: 5 weeks

Location: This course will commence on Tuesday 5th November 2013 next and will run for two nights per week Tuesday & Thursday (5.30pm - 9.30pm) for 5 weeks. There is an open night scheduled for Tuesday 1st October next at 6pm. If you do not attend the open night we will assume that you are no longer interested in the course. Please note that places are allocated based upon the date of your initial application in your local FAS office.

shane0007

Well we all know the history of FAS!
As it correctly states allied trades or OFTEC. This is still applicable until 31st December 2013 but GID must be successfully completed in full by this date also. So if you have OFTEC completed or an allied trade, of which electricians are considered allied trades, you can commence the GIS. Once you successfully complete GIS, this will allow you the entry requirement for GID.
Thems are the rules. If FAS bends those rules to suit themselves, I would hope that RGII will pick up on it & disallow "grey area" registrations.