Budget Day - The Official After Hours Thread - (Ireland's undisputed Voice of Reason)

Sierra Oscar

Fighting Irish wrote: »

:pac:

At the end of the day, that is a lot voters that are going to desert the government eitherway.

I can't see many young people voting Labour ever again either. I am personally looking forward to strategically voting in the locals next May to ensure that Labour get no vote of mine, not even a preference.

You know things are bad for the Labour party when their youth wing come out publicly against the budget that their senior party introduced and even threaten disaffiliation.

Rocky road in store, and FG won't be getting off lightly either.

Stheno

Hulk Hands wrote: »

The middle incomes have been beaten pillar to post since the start of austerity. There couldn't possibly have been another increase in PAYE and USC in the last 2 budgets. Off the top of my head though, the increase in PRSI and Motor Tax (possibly not) affected you last year, along with possibly DIRT and of course the property tax in future?

I budgeted to lose 5% gross income in PAYE increases, the hundred odd and the 50 odd I paid in lpt and motor tax came nowhere near that.

If the top rate had gone up 2% it would have impacted me far more.

And I've plenty of colleagues in the same boat, relatively high earners with no major dependants who have not been massively impacted or just shrugged it off.

Revenue have enough data to feed that information into the government, so they could use things like child tax credits etc to better impact on those most able to cope. However, my current level of taxation is about 30% on gross and not marginal income so there is the counter argument.

Listening to Today FM this evening they argued and pointed to CSO stats that the top 10% suffered the highest level of punititive damage during this recession with marginal tax hitting up to 55%

At least I'm denying them 10 cent a pint by drinking tonight!!!

K-9

Just catching up on the budget and as somebody who claimed welfare in the past, why didn't they just cut a tenner of everybody?

I'm catching up on my newsfeed and I see headlines like "Bereavement grant was the easiest option - Howlin", "Unemployment Benefit needs to me made unattractive to young people - Quinn", well Fcuk off the lot of them.

€850 isn't that much at the end of a persons life to help for the huge cost of burying somebody, especially if you've cared for somebody with Alzheimers and Dementia, saving the state a fortune in care bills. Unemployment payments (he couldn't even get the name right!) weren't that attractive when work was available, and we had to attract immigrants to fill the skills shortage.

The spin doctors will have them well prepared, rather than take a tenner of everybody on welfare, systemically target sections of society that will go down well with those that speak loudest. Whoever came up with the line that this budget gets you from the cradle to the grave summed it up perfectly.

Options? There were plenty of options available to FG/Labour. FG promised no income tax rises and Labour no welfare cuts, if they'd abandoned those promises rather than selectively go after sections of society I'd understand. Instead they can go into an election saying they stuck to their promise and even FG/Labour Apparatchik's will marvel at the political maneuvering from those on high.

Stheno

Do you not think it's amazing though that they are so many areas they have managed to hit K9 without hitting those basics?

In the case of labour though I'm not sure you could argue their case with how core welfare has been cut for under 25s

efb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPICQwHnhOs

K-9

Stheno wrote: »

Do you not think it's amazing though that they are so many areas they have managed to hit K9 without hitting those basics?

I'm not amazed at all. They don't seem to realise that a tenner of everybody getting welfare is far more PR friendly than going after pensioners and the disabled. Remember we are posting about this before the inevitable Government climb down over some measure.

In the case of labour though I'm not sure you could argue their case with how core welfare has been cut for under 25s

Indeed, that and the other cuts will always be remembered. Labour always collapse after coalition with FG.

Stheno

K-9 wrote: »

I'm not amazed at all. They don't seem to realise that a tenner of everybody getting welfare is far more PR friendly than going after pensioners and the disabled. Remember we are posting about this before the inevitable Government climb down over some measure.



Indeed, that and the other cuts will always be remembered. Labour always collapse after coalition with FG.

Yeah I remember being on welfare in 2203 or so and it was €134 per week compared to now

Labour have always collapsed in government here, they seem to lose the run of themselves

K-9

efb wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPICQwHnhOs

The Diamond in Donegal Town is in that video, not that much different in the near 30 years since.

Jamie2k9

I am shocked and very annoyed that Social Welfare has had next to no reform and its a free ride for a good % of people on it. They are doing SFA about fraud and Joan Burton should be shown the door of the department and a FG minister appointed as there would be some better chance of reform. Payments should be slashed to bring it in line and make people take jobs instead turning them down.

Take a look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhHwVnmsLGQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UU1XSYJz0tzqNONTlIoRpqog

This is what's happening in Ireland but ten times worse as our welfare system is free for all and no one TD on the island is willing to do anything to change it.

Personally if I was head of the department I would:
Cut the job seekers to 160
Cut single parents to 190 and if a fathers name isn't given then no payment at all. (no my fault thousands or parents are making mistakes)
Cut Child Benefit to 100 and completely to people on 50,000 and cap it at 2 children. (The state shouldn't be paying for children)
Disability allowance would be given to people with a disability and not to half the current claims which are not real disability.
No medial Card unless OAP, GP only card for others and No free travel.
Rent Allowance complete scrapped and if it was to stay people in Dublin would not be getting up to 1,000 a week for a home and they have done nothing to deserve it. 400 cap across the board.

It's a joke the carry on here, The state pay for your lifestyle and then are expected to part pay for you to go 6ft under. Complete joke.

Galwayguy35

Wasn't too bad of a Budget for me personally, at least the USC didn't go up and diesel and car tax remains the same, I can live with the price of a pint going up.

shruikan2553

Eight Ball wrote: »

Cruel budget. Attacking those most in need and awarding those within the circle.

It's terrible isnt it? My grandparents will have to sell one of their houses, or downgrade their car to something like an audi! May just have to cancel the broadband because the government wont hand over any money for it. All these pensioners are so vulnerable.

K-9

shruikan2553 wrote: »

It's terrible isnt it? My grandparents will have to sell one of their houses, or downgrade their car to something like an audi! May just have to cancel the broadband because the government wont hand over any money for it. All these pensioners are so vulnerable.

Yeah terrible, those pensioners with Alzheimers, Dementia and Parkinsons going round in Audis, surfing the net on their ipads and iphones and selling their mansions making a fortune in the current property market.

I don't know what idyllic world you inhabit, but it doesn't bear much resemblance to the one I do.

awec

K-9 wrote: »

Yeah terrible, those pensioners with Alzheimers, Dementia and Parkinsons going round in Audis, surfing the net on their ipads and iphones and selling their mansions making a fortune in the current property market.

I don't know what idyllic world you inhabit, but it doesn't bear much resemblance to the one I do.

Are you referring to the ones who will be keeping their medical card?

Such a load of hyperbole about nothing. Why does becoming a pensioner mean that even though you can still afford to pay for healthcare that you suddenly get it for free?

Those who can't afford it will still be keeping the card. The sole reason there is mock outrage about this is that they have had it so easy for so long that people have got this notion in to their head that all pensioners should get a free ride.

Galwayguy35

K-9 wrote: »

Yeah terrible, those pensioners with Alzheimers, Dementia and Parkinsons going round in Audis, surfing the net on their ipads and iphones and selling their mansions making a fortune in the current property market.

I don't know what idyllic world you inhabit, but it doesn't bear much resemblance to the one I do.

You are aware that the cut off point is €500 for a single person and €900 for a couple?

Any pensioner who has that income isn't too badly off, you'd swear by the way you are going on that it's being taken off everyone.

shruikan2553

K-9 wrote: »

Yeah terrible, those pensioners with Alzheimers, Dementia and Parkinsons going round in Audis, surfing the net on their ipads and iphones and selling their mansions making a fortune in the current property market.

I don't know what idyllic world you inhabit, but it doesn't bear much resemblance to the one I do.

My idyllic world involves a few pensioners who are just as capable as living on the same benefits that any 18-64 can live on along with their pensions. Humans dont age in such a manner that once they hit 65 they suddenly become the most vulnerable and need help with everything.

There are some that do need help and should get it but there are also some that dont.

K-9

awec wrote: »

Are you referring to the ones who will be keeping their medical card?

Such a load of hyperbole about nothing. Why does becoming a pensioner mean that even though you can still afford to pay for healthcare that you suddenly get it for free?

Those who can't afford it will still be keeping the card. The sole reason there is mock outrage about this is that they have had it so easy for so long that people have got this notion in to their head that all pensioners should get a free ride.

Just responding to the hyperbole that they are all driving round in Audi's. It's illogical to suggest that, obviously people o-65 are far more likely to get Alzheimer's, Dementia, Parkinsons, Cancer, Heart disease than be driving round in Audi's.

Sorry to introduce reality into a right wingers porn dream of pensioners!

shruikan2553 wrote: »

My idyllic world involves a few pensioners who are just as capable as living on the same benefits that any 18-64 can live on along with their pensions. Humans dont age in such a manner that once they hit 65 they suddenly become the most vulnerable and need help with everything.

There are some that do need help and should get it but there are also some that dont.

Indeed. Shame you didn't state that slightly more well rounded version in your first post.

awec

K-9 wrote: »

Just responding to the hyperbole that they are all driving round in Audi's. It's illogical to suggest that, obviously people o-65 are far more likely to get Alzheimer's, Dementia, Parkinsons, Cancer, Heart disease than be driving round in Audi's.

Sorry to introduce reality into a right wingers porn dream of pensioners!
.

Who said they all were? Not all pensioners are losing the card.

Here is the fact here:

1. Well off pensioners receiving large pensions on incomes which are higher than most working people and outgoings that are lower than most working people will not receive medical cards.
2. Pensioners who are not well off will continue to receive free healthcare.
3. Hyperbole ensues. "Won't somebody think of the pensioners on 900 quid a week?!"

Had the cards been kept:

1. All pensioners get the medical card
2. Tax increase to pay for it
3. "It's not fair that I have to pay more taxes! Tax and make cuts to the well off!"

shruikan2553

K-9 wrote: »

Just responding to the hyperbole that they are all driving round in Audi's. It's illogical to suggest that, obviously people o-65 are far more likely to get Alzheimer's, Dementia, Parkinsons, Cancer, Heart disease than be driving round in Audi's.

Sorry to introduce reality into a right wingers porn dream of pensioners!



Indeed. Shame you didn't state that slightly more well rounded version in your first post.

I never said otherwise. I just mentioned 1 case as an example that not all pensions are vulnerable people that need all the money they can get from the government to get by. Im sure my grandmother would have preferred not to get a free TV licences and line rental if it meant improving care her 100 year old mother got while she had dementia.

Karl Stein

K-9 wrote: »

€850 isn't that much at the end of a persons life to help for the huge cost of burying somebody

Em.. wasn't that a universal payment made regardless of need? So it could be used to upgrade the coffin furnishing from satin to silk for the well-off?

That's just nuts.

Also, a person of meagre means can go to the dole for a special payment in times of need can't they? What welfare administrator is going to turn away someone struggling to pay for a loved one's funeral?

Foxtrol

awec wrote: »

Who said they all were? Not all pensioners are losing the card.

Here is the fact here:

1. Well off pensioners receiving large pensions on incomes which are higher than most working people and outgoings that are lower than most working people will not receive medical cards.
2. Pensioners who are not well off will continue to receive free healthcare.
3. Hyperbole ensues. "Won't somebody think of the pensioners on 900 quid a week?!"

Had the cards been kept:

1. All pensioners get the medical card
2. Tax increase to pay for it
3. "It's not fair that I have to pay more taxes! Tax and make cuts to the well off!"

They aren't even 'losing' it, they're moving from a full one to a GP only.

K-9

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I never said otherwise.[

It's terrible isnt it? My grandparents will have to sell one of their houses, or downgrade their car to something like an audi! May just have to cancel the broadband because the government wont hand over any money for it. All these pensioners are so vulnerable.

I'll let others make their mind up.

K-9

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Em.. wasn't that a universal payment made regardless of need? So it could be used to upgrade the coffin furnishing from satin to silk for the well-off?

That's just nuts.

Also, a person of meagre means can go to the dole for a special payment in times of need can't they? What welfare administrator is going to turn away someone struggling to pay for a loved one's funeral?

Yep, it was a universal payment, that's the nature of them things, everybody gets it. Bit like universal health care as so many European countries have. Some people might rip the piss out of it, doesn't mean the principle is wrong.

B.A._Baracus

Taking away the 850 bereavement grant was a shitty move by the government.

People working all their lives, paying tax, contributing - wasn't it fitting that after all they gave, the government gave something back at the end? It's a decent thing to do. There was nothing wrong with it. It worked well for years.

But now thats 'too much' .... but you still got to pay your taxes, still got to contribute. Until you die. Then fuck you. How can anyone support that.

Kippure

Sinn Féin Finance Spokesperson Pearse Doherty TD responds to the Government's Austerity Budget for 2014.

He may be in Sinn Fein but he spoke the truth today.

TheBoffin

A wide range of tax hikes including on state pensions, cigarettes, beer and wine are unveiled by Finance Minister Michael Hoonan.

http://news.sky.com/story/1154987/irelands-final-austerity-budget-unveiled

April O Neill

P_1 wrote: »

I'd have to disagree with that point to be honest. In terms of income tax, yes people on low wages would pay little but in terms of VAT, DIRT and excise IMO they are paying proportionally more in taxes.

Yep, VAT is definitely regressive.

April O Neill

AdamD wrote: »

Why should they pay even more to fund social welfare? The 'super rich' are already paying a lot more tax than your average taxpayer.

Obviously they are... because they have a lot of money. The rates aren't higher for them, they just have more income that falls into the higher tax band.

Galwayguy35

Most of us on the thread here are taxpayers, we got hammered in the last 5 Budgets, we shouldered the burden over the last few years so it's about time we we were given a break this time around.

dobman88

Was on the way to work this morning, mental traffic jam around the Dail, nobody able to move and some lad knocks on the window. He was doing a collection because someone had taken Michael Noonan hostage and was threatening to burn the place down with petrol!!

I asked on average, how much are people giving.

The guy replied, about 5 litres each