C2 vs C1 - Property value difference

mrcheez

Is it possible to estimate what sort of value increase a property would experience moving from a C2 to a C1 ?

MicktheMan

Imo, no it's not (even if there was a properly functioning property market)

mrcheez

I guess it comes down to how much the buyer values the BER rating *shrug*

Greenmachine

You could spend thousands increasing a rating from a C2 to a C1 and if the market dictates,it could be worth less after the work is done. House prices continue to fall in a number of areas.

MicktheMan

mrcheez wrote: »

I guess it comes down to how much the buyer values the BER rating *shrug*

Yes, and if they know anything about the ber rating process they will value it little

mrcheez

Greenmachine wrote: »

You could spend thousands increasing a rating from a C2 to a C1

I didn't spend anything, just turns out my previous BER at C2 wasn't calculated correctly so they upgraded it to a C1. Just curious if this was of some benefit

caesarthechimp

Looks like somebody collected a few penalty points then.
The auditors are acting like the spanish inquisition at the moment.

PAL100

No the rating won't make that difference, if it went from D2 to C2 it might do but anybody buying the house will know what work if any might need to be done, if they are interested.

mrcheez

I'd be interested to see how many people would be drawn toward a B3 over a C1, just because it has a green colour, despite being only 1 increment more

blacktea

mrcheez wrote: »

Is it possible to estimate what sort of value increase a property would experience moving from a C2 to a C1 ?

i wouldn't imagine it would make a difference. From my experience the BER is simply a legal doc needed to close a sale. Many auctioneers are still looking for the ber AFTER the sale goes through so the buyers don't really see it anyway or it doesn't matter to them

mrcheez

blacktea wrote: »

i wouldn't imagine it would make a difference. From my experience the BER is simply a legal doc needed to close a sale. Many auctioneers are still looking for the ber AFTER the sale goes through so the buyers don't really see it anyway or it doesn't matter to them

Hmm I'd have to disagree here, I think it does matter, especially for those searching on property websites like MyHome where the BER is now featured prominently on the search results.

Some of my work colleagues are actively searching for a new property and a low BER means to them "needs a lot of work", so I think it's definitely a factor in how much people are willing to spend on a house.

e.g.
House 1 - BER G
House 2 - BER B3

both are identical and both being offered for same money. Guess which one is going to have more offers.

blacktea

i was referring to comparison between a C1 and C2 rating. Costings are impossible to predict although in theory, all things being equal,C1 should be less expensive to run. Bear in mind though that two properties, for example, two terraced units with same rating will not likely be the same in reality. For instance, one could have better air tightness, not as leaky windows, modern rads, a more efficient boiler due to age and servicing, use of defaults etc. So one could be much better than the other even with the same rating.

applying this to C1 and C2, the C2 could possibly be better or at least the difference in reality either way would be marginal.

you are correct and i would agree that there would obviously be no contest between the energy use of a G and a B rated properties as they are on different ends of the Ber spectrum. This would be a more straightforward choice

mrcheez

blacktea wrote: »

i was referring to comparison between a C1 and C2 rating.

Ah right I thought you were downplaying the signifigance of the BER in property valuation as some others in this thread were. The majority of people searching for property will place a value on the BER simply because so many property ads tell them to.

I guess the advantage of being C1 means it will be less work for me to move into the B's if I wanted and I'd bet even moving 1 increment to a B3 would generate much more interest compared to moving from C2 to C1.

"ooh look at the nice green BER rating on this one"

blacktea

mrcheez wrote: »

Ah right I thought you were downplaying the signifigance of the BER in property valuation as some others in this thread were. The majority of people searching for property will place a value on the BER simply because so many property ads tell them to.

I guess the advantage of being C1 means it will be less work for me to move into the B's if I wanted and I'd bet even moving 1 increment to a B3 would generate much more interest compared to moving from C2 to C1.

"ooh look at the nice green BER rating on this one"

Well to be fair Mrcheez, it has little value due to the wide range of variables not accounted for in the software and the use of defaults if info isn't available. For example, i did an air tightness test on a house built around 2000 and the result was about 1.5 air changes per hr- the default in the software is 0.5 ac/hr- the house was about 3 times worse than the default and for the vast majority of houses the default is used (unless a new dwelling). The ber does not account for these variables so is not a correct reflection of the energy efficiency.

it has value possibly for new builds where all variables are known and equipment is new and for checking part L compliance. It fills the EPBD legal requirement. For people buying a property they may put a value on the ber but i would suggest this is misplaced- it should not be over valued. It is simply not accurate in reality, just a rough guide, better than nothing.

in your case upgrading to a 'green' B3 would be more favourable than a C1 but, with respect, this would be due to ignorance of the system / over valuing the accuracy of the energy efficiency. As said earlier, clear differences such as a G rating as opposed to a B would help you make an easy choice but this is simply due to the vast gulf between them and not that either is actually strictly representative

MicktheMan

blacktea wrote: »

For example, i did an air tightness test on a house built around 2000 and the result was about 1.5 air changes per hr- the default in the software is 0.5 ac/hr- the house was about 3 times worse than the default

Just to clarify, did you apply the empirical multiplier of 1/20 to the att result as is required in DEAP?

blacktea

hi mick, yes the result was just under 30 cum/(m2.h)- around 1.5 ac/h. It was atrocious but demonstrates the inadequacy of the default in deap. Not saying all are this bad but you never know...

MicktheMan

mrcheez wrote: »

Ah right I thought you were downplaying the signifigance of the BER in property valuation as some others in this thread were.

I'm not sure but you might be including me in that statement.:)

Where I'm coming from is the total lack of actual real world testing of a building wrt real world energy efficiency when a BER assessment is carried out.

For example, suppose a car was put through a similar BER-type assessment instead of the NCT. This might be equivalent to an assessor:
- looking up the weight of the car
- measuring the length of the car
- measuring the height of the car
- counting the number of wheels and the diameter of such
- noting the engine size and fuel type
- looking up the mpg
- measuring the area and type of glazing
- counting the number of lights and type of bulbs
- noting the number of vents in the car
- and then inputting this info into a computer programme which in turn churns out a rating.

What isn't tested in the above is if the car even starts; what the emissions from the engine are; whether the brakes, lights, seat belts, indicators, etc etc even work; is the tyre pressure okay; if the doors open/close properly, etc.

Finally, bear in mind that cars are generally built in factories where there are frequent quality control checks/tests whereas buildings are assembled in a field with no effective quality control checks/tests.

Now, how much trust/value would you invest in such a rating?

MicktheMan

blacktea wrote: »

hi mick, yes the result was just under 30 cum/(m2.h)-

:eek::eek::eek:
WOW ..... did someone forget to install a window or something .... WOW

blacktea

not far off...it was down to poor window casements and a bay window. Double glazed pvc btw. These always seem to be a problem. The type that are in estates all over the country. I was shocked how bad it performed for a 7/8 year old dwelling.

it was a training exercise on an existing house normally they would be on new obviously. Just shows how the air tightness can alter a ber that a default is used on

mrcheez

Blacktea/Mick, just so we're clear I'm not saying the BER system is flawless, I'm talking about the perception laypeople have of it (those who, as you say, are ignorant of the true system but who value a higher BER rating simply because of messages from the property industry)

Therefore, C2 vs C1 would probably be of little interest to a layperson. C1 vs B3 would probably generate higher interest simply because of the colour code difference.

Of course if they subscribe to this forum they will learn there is little difference etc

blacktea

understood mcheez. Unfortunately you could argue that its fatally flawed but its a means to an end and a platform that can be built on. To the unsuspecting house purchaser who are unaware (rather than ignorant) of its defficiencies, it does act as a guide when comparing properties however they don't know the full story..