Burton: Garda checkpoints on estates to weed out welfare cheats

Yawns

bumper234 wrote: »

If a guard suspects a crime is being committed (welfare fraud) he can ask yo8 your details. If you refuse to give said details you can be held until your identity has been confirmed.

The guard would need to show how he suspects welfare fraud. Well Judge, he walked out of his house, gave me his name and address but refused to comment further unless I Was charging him with an offence so from that I took it he was committing welfare fraud and passed his information illegally against his wishes after he requested me to keep his details confidential from that DSP worker.

Now that is what you are suggesting the guard does in your posts. Read that and tell me how in the name you think that would stand up in court. Please.

Cd_doe

RustyNut wrote: »

But you are under no obligation to awnser any questions. You are not even obliged to identify yourself to a Garda never mind a SW inspetor unless you are driving a vehicle or the Guard has "reasonable" suspicion that you have committed an offence.

Your going to be driving a vehicle therefore will be obliged to give the guard your driving license, if you don't have that you are obliged to give your name and address...


Edit: sorry missed the part in your post about driving the car.

expectationlost

you're all fraudsters every single one of you, according to joan burton

Celly Smunt

bumper234 wrote: »

If a guard suspects a crime is being committed (welfare fraud) he can ask yo8 your details. If you refuse to give said details you can be held until your identity has been confirmed.

And nowhere is it compulsory for the inspector or any piece of the department of social protection to get involved.

Geomy

During the late 90s I was working in a garden center in Scotland,it also had a huge nursery connected to it.
Three was rumours of people working there and getting cash in hand. ..

One morning I was on my way to work, I was stopped by the police and asked for ididentification and address etc

My Irish address and Scottish address, they made 2 phone calls one to Belfast and another to some office in Scotland....

I was legitimately employed but the funny part was the fact 1 of these guys didn't realize the Co Clare was separate to the North lol

They had to phone Belfast to settle a score, the guy in Belfast had a good laugh, the Police man found it hard to convince the welfare guy that Belfast won't have any record of me....

The police man was also a Hibbs supporter lol

Yawns

This pretty much sums it up for some people here it seems. Every man, woman and child in this country is currently guilty of welfare fraud until such time, that they pass a checkpoint with a dsp worker there and give all information so that they may be deemed innocent.

I think on that note, it really is time to exit this thread.

Ladies & Gentlemen, I bid you a good day.

Nutters, you may carry on nutting.

Hitchens

A 39-year-old former member of the Garda Reserve has appeared in court in Limerick on a charge of making a false declaration to claim Jobseeker’s Allowance.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1016/480753-court-charles-eyombo/

wexie

Celly Smunt wrote: »

It is the set up of these checkpoints i have a problem with.It is pure power pushing that imposes on people trying to get on with their lives without and hindrance from the state.

I have no problem with fraudsters being caught (obviously),i have a problem however of being treated like a suspect by a civil servant with no authority and having to prove myself not,on the side of the road.

The whole thing stinks of fascism and being guilty until proven innocent.

hmmm....in which case I mostly agree with you. Though, I've got to wonder would a little bit of inconvenience be worth it if it'd make a nice dent in welfare fraud. (I suspect you won't agree). I don't know quite know what the numbers are like but what if it was a case where you might be stopped at one of these checkpoints, however income tax could be lowered by 1% on the back of the cutdown on social welfare fraud. (they may not be realistic numbers of course)

Personally I think it would, however, having said that I'd be well pissed off if I got stopped on the way into work and treated as a suspect.

I think there's probably better places to start looking into this, such as linking the tax and social welfare records, as long as it's possible to work and pay taxes and at the same time claim benefits I would think there'd be a quicker and easier win to be had that way and I would imagine there are probably other ways data the government already have could be used to look into these matters, all within the framework of existing data protection laws.

darkpagandeath

Does it not say in the constitution somewhere if your going about your daily business they have no right to randomly stop you ? Unless they suspect a crime ? as a citizen you have the right to freedom of movement and not to be harassed ?

ebbsy

W'ont happen. Weather is too bad for the boys in blue to be outside.

K-9

Didn't we have a thread recently questioning if it is actually legal for welfare officers to have checkpoints like this?

Think we had these on the border before, just as you cross the Lifford/Strabane bridge. Guards stopped them, did the usual checks for tax etc, Customs checked Northern regs and Welfare checked dole. Got loads of people, ones claiming dole legitimately here but driving Northern regs and Northerners coming across to claim dole.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

hansfrei

Does seem a bit targeted. Why did JB use the term "housing estate"?
Is her next plan to make the unlucky jobless man wear a star sewn onto his jumper? Or get a tatoo of his PPSN number onto his hand?


Heres an idea. Create some fcuking jobs bitch. Pressurise the other lazy feckless fat bastards in government into giving a fvck about their country.

i8mancs

Jaysus Joan what about starting with your colleagues and their unvouched expenses and allowances, plus the fraudsters in the public sector and their sick days now there's savings to be had

wexie

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You don't really think they're comparable scenarios do you?
Last time I checked it was still quite acceptable to criticise the government.

Also been a while since anybody has been executed for making fun of Enda Kenny's hair I believe.

darkpagandeath

wexie wrote: »

You don't really think they're comparable scenarios do you?
Last time I checked it was still quite acceptable to criticise the government.

Also been a while since anybody has been executed for making fun of Enda Kenny's hair I believe.

You know these things come in dribs and drabs that's how they get in ? There are reason's Europeans are scared of fascism are there not ...

My name is URL

If her own dept. was doing its job properly there'd be no need to draft Gardai in to do it for them. Aren't there supposed to be regular meetings between long term claimants and inspectors? I was under the impression that people were required to show they were seeking employment by providing copies of cover letters sent to employers and any replies received.. and if people failed to do so then they quite rightly had their claim re-examined.. why isn't this the case any more?

This is a cheap and lazy attempt by Burton and her dept. to be seen to be doing something, when in reality they do fcuk all to tackle prospective false or fraudulent claims.

RustyNut

wexie wrote: »

You don't really think they're comparable scenarios do you?
Last time I checked it was still quite acceptable to criticise the government.

Also been a while since anybody has been executed for making fun of Enda Kenny's hair I believe.

But it starts with random checkpoints to check your status just in case you "might" have done something.

wexie

darkpagandeath wrote: »

You know these things come in dribs and drabs that's how they get in ? There are reason's Europeans are scared of fascism are there not ...

That's not fear you're talking about, that's pure unadulterated paranoia

RichardoKhan

The irony of a centre right party coalition moving more towards a big brother surveillance society is beyond humour.
After all wasnt it the right wing parties/media that spent most of the 80's & 90's painting this picture would only be caused by Socialist/Left wing voting? Ultimately we get the Government we vote for. Thanks Gombeen/Family/Lazy voting habits

mfceiling

As a self employed construction worker who is fully legal and tax compliant you'd think i'd be happy with this....

To be honest i'm thinking of the lads who broke into my house last year and stole my wife's car, purse and my laptop. They must be having some laugh at this carry on.

This country is really turning into a dictatorship/police state by the day. Checkpoints for this, that and the other.

What about the hardcore unemployed who have never worked a day in their life and don't intend to? The lads making a killing robbing houses and cars? The drug dealers peddling their sh*t?

They must be on the floor laughing at the garda time being taken to catch, and let's be realistic here - 10 or 20 people a week.

I'd sooner see 10 or 20 of the scumbag criminals arrested, that inhabit this country, than a lad who's on the dole doing a days painting or labouring to keep the roof over his head.

The irony isn't lost on me that he could be doing me out of work - i see that.

Celly Smunt

Lads this is what finglas will look like soon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLITECHccO8

bumper234

Fred Swanson wrote: »

I has a suggestion for the nothing to hide mob. Move to North Korea and see how you like the government surveillance 24/7/365.

Was wondering how long it would take for that old doozy to pop up.

darkpagandeath

wexie wrote: »

That's not fear you're talking about, that's pure unadulterated paranoia

Ah so it's only a coincidence these ultra right wing parties are gaining power in the EU now is it ? extreme hardship due to economic pressure sure that's never happened before.

My name is URL

bumper234 wrote: »

Was wondering how long it would take for that old doozy to pop up.

It's a more well thought out response than the 'if you have nothing to hide' argument deserves.

brokenarms

K-9 wrote: »

Didn't we have a thread recently questioning if it is actually legal for welfare officers to have checkpoints like this?

Think we had these on the border before, just as you cross the Lifford/Strabane bridge. Guards stopped them, did the usual checks for tax etc, Customs checked Northern regs and Welfare checked dole. Got loads of people, ones claiming dole legitimately here but driving Northern regs and Northerners coming across to claim dole.

I remember the days when the Adria factory was open. They caught about 30 border hoppers in one day. Claiming the dole in lifford and working in Strabane. While driving uk cars. Saved the state 100 of thousands in the long term.

darkpagandeath

brokenarms wrote: »

I remember the days when the Adria factory was open. They caught about 30 border hoppers in one day. Claiming the dole in lifford and working in Strabane. While driving uk cars. Saved the state 100 of thousands in the long term.

Border control is completely different to targeting citizens

SpaceTime

My name is URL wrote: »

If her own dept. was doing its job properly there'd be no need to draft Gardai in to do it for them. Aren't there supposed to be regular meetings between long term claimants and inspectors? I was under the impression that people were required to show they were seeking employment by providing copies of cover letters sent to employers and any replies received.. and if people failed to do so then they quite rightly had their claim re-examined.. why isn't this the case any more?

This is a cheap and lazy attempt by Burton and her dept. to be seen to be doing something, when in reality they do fcuk all to tackle prospective false or fraudulent claims.

The IMF actually brought this up. The main problem is that there are actually way too few staff per claimant. I saw the ratios compared to the UK, Germany etc and they were absolutely ridiculous here.

The civil service recruitment freeze and an inability to move staff around from other departments is what's causing this.

I find the way the Government works is quite baffling at times. I mean, OK you need to reduce numbers, but you need to do it in a targeted way and not in a way that ends up with a counterproductive situation like this arising.

....

I also think if you completely redesigned how the system works, you might prevent fraud before it even begins thus saving yourself a fortune in losses and enforcement costs.

...

This is how I'd do it:

1) Issue claimants with biometric ID cards and install finger print scanners in the post offices.
You would be required to go down and 'swipe on' once every two weeks.

2) Your claim would be paid into a nominated bank account automatically within 24 hours. Cash would not be handed out at post offices as this is a huge security nightmare and expense to the state and puts people's lives at risk.

3) We own the banks, so they could be required to make available a special type of current account with limited services for welfare claimants to receive money into. This would have a debit card facility and ATM card and internet banking facilities limited to transfers to Irish accounts only.

The ATM card would also not function outside the Republic of Ireland.

4) You'd be required to keep a record of your job applications either on paper in a file provided to you by the department, or by filing copies of letters / emails etc online.
This wouldn't necessarily be checked for everyone but a random sample of claimants would have it checked.

Stuff like that would eliminate a lot of basic fraud very quickly.

...

What they're doing at the moment seems to be a bit like if the shops decided to have absolutely no security whatsoever and then wanted the state to waste loads of money on policing and prosecuting crime and having police going around demanding that members of the public prove they're not shop lifters.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

K-9

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Border control is completely different to targeting citizens

Well it was partly border control but far more concerned with welfare and VRT evasion though. Pretty clever because if you drove a Northern car and claimed dole you were fcuked either way, either you had a Northern car that you hadn't declared and owed VRT or you lived in the North and claimed here illegally.

The way the customs often worked when checking for VRT was stop on say the Buncrana to Derry road every weekday morning between 7.30 and 9, if you were heading to Derry every morning in a Northern reg, the staying with the girlfriend excuses didn't wash much.

Cee-Jay-Cee

godwin wrote: »

Can they do this? I mean what civil rights does a person have if they get stopped at a check points by welfare and the garda enquiring who they are and where they are going?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/burton-garda-checkpoints-on-estates-to-weed-out-welfare-cheats-29665728.html

There's always a bleeding heart liberalist to question such moves. Who cares if they can do it or not ;although they obviously can) There are too many fraudsters creaming it off the state and working at the same time. They should increase the powers of Gardai to allow them to enter workplaces/building sites and make enquiries from every single worker on site. It's people with your type attitude that have this country ruined.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Hootanany

A start would be giving PPS numbers to all Scrap Metal Merchants before you can sell to them.

damalo

Scrapping those silly TV License adverts and diverting resources or other TV adverts warning people on social welfare fraud would be a good move. Seeing as SW fraud probably costs 150 / week per person, the return should be much higher than the TV license which yields 150 / year from subscribers

Its time the decks were cleared so the people who need the money the most get it. Not people jockeying those paying into SW via PAYE etc

bumper234

My name is URL wrote: »

It's a more well thought out response than the 'if you have nothing to hide' argument deserves.

I don't recall ever saying "if you have nothing to hide"

PickledLime

Seeing as there's no massive sporting event around the corner to distract the masses, they've basically set the country squabbling with each other over this to distract from the fact they're grossly overpaid, inept crooks running the country.

I'd prefer to see a welfare cheat make off with my tax dollars than the scum that are supposed to be running the country.

Wrapping a rope around my neck and swinging from it is getting more attractive day by day.

bumper234

Fred Swanson wrote: »

It is those prepared to surrender their freedom that people fought and died to achieve that has the country ruined.

I honestly wonder if several of the usual posters in these threads have a data base of these that they just copy/paste saving them precious seconds that can be stored up for some serious moral outrage later in the year.

RustyNut

CJC999 wrote: »

There's always a bleeding heart liberalist to question such moves. Who cares if they can do it or not ;although they obviously can) There are too many fraudsters creaming it off the state and working at the same time. They should increase the powers of Gardai to allow them to enter workplaces/building sites and make enquiries from every single worker on site. It's people with your type attitude that have this country ruined.

There are also too many people using illegal drugs. They should increase Garda powers to allow them to search every home on the island, it's people who live in homes that have this country ruined. :rolleyes:

Hootanany

PickledLime wrote: »

Seeing as there's no massive sporting event around the corner to distract the masses, they've basically set the country squabbling with each other over this to distract from the fact they're grossly overpaid, inept crooks running the country.

I'd prefer to see a welfare cheat make off with my tax dollars than the scum that are supposed to be running the country.

Wrapping a rope around my neck and swinging from it is getting more attractive day by day.

Don't do it because then the Bastards gave won.

Karl Stein

SpaceTime wrote: »

1) Issue claimants with biometric ID cards and install finger print scanners in the post offices.
You would be required to go down and 'swipe on' once every two weeks.

Weekly finger print scanning in PO's would actually do away with the need to sign on at all. It would also make it harder to be non-resident.

If children's allowance was linked to school attendance after the age of 5/6 it would prevent non-resident welfare payments leaving the country and provide a financial incentive to permissive parents for making their kids attend school.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

brokenarms

Everyone hates fraud.

Cops and welfare do something about.

Everyone thinks fraud is Ok and cops are pigs for saving us money.
Ejits.

This has been going on for years by the way. I have been stopped in checkpoints on two occasions .

Glad to see it.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

darkpagandeath

Phoenix wrote: »

I plead the fifth mr officer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:pac:

Long drive from Dublin to America ?

mfceiling

CJC999 wrote: »

There's always a bleeding heart liberalist to question such moves. Who cares if they can do it or not ;although they obviously can) There are too many fraudsters creaming it off the state and working at the same time. They should increase the powers of Gardai to allow them to enter workplaces/building sites and make enquiries from every single worker on site. It's people with your type attitude that have this country ruined.

I'm as far from liberal as you could meet however, allowing garda access to building sites...cop on for fcuks sake.

How about the junkies who rob all around them or the people who take illegal drugs (plenty of middle class people there)...should we be allowing the garda to enter their homes?

My name is URL

brokenarms wrote: »

Everyone hates fraud.

Cops and welfare do something about.

Everyone thinks fraud is Ok and cops are pigs for saving us money.
Ejits.

This has been going on for years by the way. I have been stopped in checkpoints on two occasions .

Glad to see it.

I think the problem most people have with the idea is how it's being announced and rolled out by the DSP. The tone used by Burton seemed very generalised and kind of ham-fisted... speaking of how claimants will be identified and checked.

The vast vast majority of those on the Dole don't want to be on it, and a huge amount of them feel bad enough already being out of a job and seeing themselves as a drain on others. Now they need to worry about being stopped and having their details checked by a civil servant with no real authority, and their actions and intentions drawn into question on any given day.

I'm not on the dole thankfully, but I'd seriously have to think twice about ever claiming it here if I were to lose my job, and I've worked and paid taxes since I left school. There's a real sense of hatred shown towards people on the dole in general, by a large portion of society, media, politicians etc. They're almost seen and frequently spoken about as if they're second class citizens.

You have to ask yourself why Burton needed to announce this in such a grandstanding way. It sounded almost designed to appease the masses, a purely political move and all it does is promulgate the notion that the gulf between classes needs to be sustained for politics to 'work' in this country.

NuckingFacker

suicide_circus wrote: »

Industrial/business estates, not housing

They do it already, my lads get stopped every now and then and asked for ID, pps numbers etc. Sucks to be you if you are on the fiddle. Doesn't bother me one bit, hopefully it will weed out some of the cowboys and black market types who undercut the ones actually paying what they are supposed to. Good stuff.

Celly Smunt

My name is URL wrote: »

You have to ask yourself why Burton needed to announce this in such a grandstanding way. It sounded almost designed to appease the masses, a purely political move and all it does is promulgate the notion that the gulf between classes needs to be sustained for politics to 'work' in this country.

Clever move by a labour minister who's view is supposed to be classless :rolleyes:

Gatling

What a way to announce what's been happening for the last 3 years

Mongfinder General

I've noticed activity in housing estates not too far from the Airport but I thought they were checking for foreign reg vehicles. There seems to be so many UK/Polish reg's parked there.