The 'Funny (ha, ha)' side of religion

smacl

Hector Savage wrote: »

Dara O Bhrian is afraid to mock Islam as he would most likely be murdered.

Seriously? :pac:

robindch

smacl wrote: »

Seriously? :pac:

Not "most likely", but it's certainly possible:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting

smacl

robindch wrote: »

Not "most likely", but it's certainly possible:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting

Well aware of Charlie Hebdo, but in this forum of all forums I think we understand the difference between possible and probable. To suggest Dara O'Brien would likely get murdered if he took a humorous dig at Islam in his act is, in my humble opinion, utter bollox. YMMV.

Hotblack Desiato

Is it just me or is the 'Mohammed move the mountain' thing really not widely known?

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Is it just me or is the 'Mohammed move the mountain' thing really not widely known?

No, I think it's pretty widely known. It just happened to pass the teenaged Seamus by.

For what it's worth, the proverb doesn't refer to anything particular in Islam or in the Islamic tradition, and it's not even clear that the "Mohammed" in the proverb is that Mohammed, or just a bloke called Mohammed.

It's anecdotal, but for what it's worth I'm told by Muslim friends that they are familiar with the proverb but they believe/assume it to be of western, non-Islamic origin. They assume it probably is intended to refer to the Prophet Mohammed, but if so it represents a projection of western ideas about Mohammed.

In western culture, the proverb goes back (at least) to Francis Bacon, who has it one of his essays:

". . . The people assembled; Mahomet called the hill to come to him, again and again; and when the hill stood still, he was never a whit abashed, but said, If the hill will not come to Mahomet, Mahomet will go to the hill . . ."

There's a suggestion that Bacon was recycling an existing Turkish proverb. On the other hand, Bacon may simply have made it up, and used the name "Mahomet" either to reference Islam or simply to give the story a bit of colour, a hint of the exotic East. Either way, the gist of this version of the proverb is obviously is that we have to take the world as we find it; if we want to secure a particular outcome, we can't do that simply by wishing; we need to take the practical steps that will lead to that outcome; it is a kind of wisdom to accept this.

Larsen's cartoon refers to a common reversal of the proverb, in which Mohammed won't go to the mountain, so the mountain has to go to Mohammed. This, I think, is a later back-formation, constructed on the basis of assumptions (a) that the proverb does refer to Mohammed, the Prophet of Islam, (b) that it's an Islamic proverb, and (c) that it must be intended to indicate the power/honour/importance of the Prophet; therefore the mountain comes to Mohammed.

pauldla

smacl

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Is it just me or is the 'Mohammed move the mountain' thing really not widely known?

The question is though, in a race to the line between a moving statue and said mountain, who would you put money on?

seamus

Peregrinus wrote: »

No, I think it's pretty widely known. It just happened to pass the teenaged Seamus by.

Irish Catholic education; There are 4 religions - Catholics, Protestants (*spit*), Jews and pagans.

The only thing I knew about Islam before leaving secondary school was that they were crazy terrorist towelheads. The Irish school system just never really spent any time on religion outside of Catholicism.

I would say the majority of Irish adults wouldn't have a clue if you asked them about Mohammed and the mountain.

Again, the fact that I clearly thought it to be Islamic in origin says it all.

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

Either way, the gist of this version of the proverb is obviously is that we have to take the world as we find it; if we want to secure a particular outcome, we can't do that simply by wishing; we need to take the practical steps that will lead to that outcome; it is a kind of wisdom to accept this.

I think perhaps that is the more benign interpretation. I always thought it to mean "if Plan A fails, abandon your principles and move to Plan B" so there is a bit of a sting or a barb to it.
In the original anecdote, Mo is a bit of a charlatan (or a false prophet), because when the mountain does not move, he claims it as proof of Allah's mercy, saying they all would have died if it had moved. Then he moves to the mountain.
So its a "heads I win, tails you lose" scenario.
The fact that Mo is portrayed as a cute hoor shows that the proverb has western origins. In the joke version, the mountain comes back to bite him.

smacl

I'd imagine most would have heard the phrase and would guess a reasonable meaning, but not much beyond that. Beyond that, it is sticking needles in the eyes of camels territory.

oscarBravo

recedite wrote: »

In the original anecdote, Mo is a bit of a charlatan (or a false prophet), because when the mountain does not move, he claims it as proof of Allah's mercy, saying they all would have died if it had moved.

Do you have a source for that "original anecdote"?

kylith

recedite wrote: »

I think perhaps that is the more benign interpretation. I always thought it to mean "if Plan A fails, abandon your principles and move to Plan B" so there is a bit of a sting or a barb to it.

I've always interpreted it as 'Stuff's not going to fall into your lap, so you're going to have to get off your arse and do something'.

Zerbini Blewitt

Hector Savage wrote: »

Yep, Don't you dare laugh at Islam on this thread,
Christianity fire away tho, It's PROGRESSIVE to sneer at it.

Won’t anyone think of the “ Mohammed LOL” sticky thread in the humour forum?

And why oh why are people so mean online & picking on us harmless athiests anyway nowadays?

So unfair

Peregrinus

seamus wrote: »

Irish Catholic education; There are 4 religions - Catholics, Protestants (*spit*), Jews and pagans.

The only thing I knew about Islam before leaving secondary school was that they were crazy terrorist towelheads. The Irish school system just never really spent any time on religion outside of Catholicism.

I would say the majority of Irish adults wouldn't have a clue if you asked them about Mohammed and the mountain.

Again, the fact that I clearly thought it to be Islamic in origin says it all.

Certainly didn't intend any criticism of you, Seamus, and if you took it that way, I apologise. There's absolutely no reason why anyone ought to be aware of this saying. It's just a saying; some people have come across it and some haven't. There are no implications either way.

If you had been taught about Islam in school, it's unlikely that this saying would have been mentioned in the lessons since, as already pointed out, it has nothing to do with yer' actual Islam.

seamus

Peregrinus wrote: »

Certainly didn't intend any criticism of you, Seamus, and if you took it that way, I apologise.

No, no, I wasn't offended.

I do find it funny (let's try keep this on-topic!), the vast gulf in knowledge about other religions that exists between people depending on how and where they went to school in Ireland. Anyone who didn't go through Irish Catholic system (primary in particular), seems to have a much broader awareness of other religions.
Some of the stuff people know that they would consider to be common knowledge would never have been mentioned in a million years in a catholic school.

smacl

seamus wrote: »

No, no, I wasn't offended.

I do find it funny (let's try keep this on-topic!), the vast gulf in knowledge about other religions that exists between people depending on how and where they went to school in Ireland. Anyone who didn't go through Irish Catholic system (primary in particular), seems to have a much broader awareness of other religions.
Some of the stuff people know that they would consider to be common knowledge would never have been mentioned in a million years in a catholic school.

Not sure how much actually sinks in. In transition year in Newpark in the 80s we had representatives from various religious groups in to explain what they were about to us students. We had a number of largely indistinguishable Christian groups, one of which gave us free bibles that the second hand bookshop had no interest in. The Hare Kirshnas, bald hippies that wore orange and made excellent fudge. The Buddhists, much like the Hares without the fudge. The Rajneeshees again similar, more hair, no fudge. The Jews, more like Christians with funny hats. Muslims never put in an appearance. The Moonies got talked about as being dodgy and didn't get an invite. I suspect we were a tough crowd to please.

Peregrinus

seamus wrote: »

No, no, I wasn't offended.

I do find it funny (let's try keep this on-topic!), the vast gulf in knowledge about other religions that exists between people depending on how and where they went to school in Ireland. Anyone who didn't go through Irish Catholic system (primary in particular), seems to have a much broader awareness of other religions.
Some of the stuff people know that they would consider to be common knowledge would never have been mentioned in a million years in a catholic school.

I dunno. I'm living in Australia, where about 30% of people have been through the Catholic school system, and 70% through the (secular) government school system. The latter are woefully uninformed about religion in general and about any particular religion you care to name. Fundamental misconceptions abound.

I suspect its true of any society that people are going to be better informed about religions (and other cultural phenomena) that are actually there to be observed around them. I don't know about you, but when I went through school in Ireland there were no Muslims. I came out knowing not only nothing about Islam, but almost nothing even about forms of Christianity that are not found in Ireland - e.g. American evangelical Protestantism. And I think you'll find that the precise religions that people know something about in other countries may differ but the general pattern is the same; they know something about the religions they actually encounter; next to nothing about the ones they don't.

Professor Moriarty

smacl wrote: »

Not sure how much actually sinks in. In transition year in Newpark in the 80s we had representatives from various religious groups in to explain what they were about to us students. We had a number of largely indistinguishable Christian groups, one of which gave us free bibles that the second hand bookshop had no interest in. The Hare Kirshnas, bald hippies that wore orange and made excellent fudge. The Buddhists, much like the Hares without the fudge. The Rajneeshees again similar, more hair, no fudge. The Jews, more like Christians with funny hats. Muslims never put in an appearance. The Moonies got talked about as being dodgy and didn't get an invite. I suspect we were a tough crowd to please.

It would appear that fudge played an important part in your religious education.

robindch

robindch wrote: »

Looking at these two pics again, I'm not sure that the covered-over sculpture is any better, and quite conceivably, it's a trifle more suggestive still.

Pherekydes

It's changed gender and religion!

smacl

Pherekydes wrote: »

It's changed gender and religion!

Not so sure about the religion, check out the inward pointing child's foot under the vestment

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

I came out knowing not only nothing about Islam, but almost nothing even about forms of Christianity that are not found in Ireland - e.g. American evangelical Protestantism.

We were better off when had no reason to know about either, because the vile political ideologies built on the back of them could have no influence on us.

Peregrinus

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

We were better off when had no reason to know about either, because the vile political ideologies built on the back of them could have no influence on us.

I wish that were true!

silverharp

silverharp

Worztron

smacl

Hector Savage

pauldla wrote: »

And right after this he grovelled and apologised to any muslims in the audience when referencing a fictional joke about a horse ...

He'd never apologise to christians - not that he should, but he shouldn't apologise to Muslims either.

Anyway, I'm an atheist, Im not sticking up for christians here but lets be honest there is an area public people won't touch - for sane and obvious reasons, lets not pretend otherwise.

smacl

Hector Savage wrote: »

And right after this he grovelled and apologised to any muslims in the audience when referencing a fictional joke about a horse ...

Clearly missing something here. Are Muslims typically deeply offended by horse related humour? Do you have a link to the section of the show in question?

Hector Savage

smacl wrote: »

Clearly missing something here. Are Muslims typically deeply offended by horse related humour? Do you have a link to the section of the show in question?

ill get it ...


https://youtu.be/QJHzwiYG8bM?t=64

and im not saying they would be offended, but why apologise?