National Transport Authority Fares Determinations for 2014

mydiscworld

Got this email today...


The National Transport Authority recently approved fares increase to the CIE group of companies for Monthly and Annual tickets.

The price increase is necessitated by;
The reduction of 7.4% in government subsidy to public transport for 2014
Increased fuel costs
The revised fares will come into effect on-line from 1st November 2013 for December issue.

The general price of increases for monthly and annual tickets, are as follows;
Dublin Bus
– increase ranging from 9.3% - 10.27%
Bus Eíreann
– an average increase of 6% on city and stage coach services
Iarnród Éireann Irish Rail
- increase ranging from 1.85% - 10.39%

Details of the increases are available on the featured news section on
www.taxsaver.ie

lil5

mydiscworld wrote: »

...
The general price of increases for monthly and annual tickets, are as follows;
Dublin Bus
– increase ranging from 9.3% - 10.27% ...

:pac::pac::pac:

Definitely not renewing my annual ticket.

mydiscworld

Yeah, annual dublin bus ticket going from 1,120 to 1,230.

a 9.82% increase!!

lil5

And in 2012 the annual DB ticket was 1,000 ...

AngryLips

The DB annual ticket is such poor value. If you're making a trip that costs you €1.40 by Leap then you'd need to be making that journey at least three times every working day for it to be of any value.

ballooba

AngryLips wrote: »

The DB annual ticket is such poor value. If you're making a trip that costs you €1.40 by Leap then you'd need to be making that journey at least three times every working day for it to be of any value.

It's a direct susbsidy to Dublin Bus by Revenue, no one in their right mind would buy that ticket unless they are on taxsaver.

This has further widened the gap between driving and busing for me. I'd be crazy to take the bus now. It will be €8.40 a day to take the bus, or €6 a day for city centre parking. I live in close to the canal in South City Centre and work close to the canal in North city centre. Madness.

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

The DB annual ticket is such poor value. If you're making a trip that costs you €1.40 by Leap then you'd need to be making that journey at least three times every working day for it to be of any value.

But the annual ticket frankly isn't designed for passengers making short trips - it's designed for people making longer or multiple journeys.

AngryLips

If you're on the higher tax bracket availing of the taxsaver scheme and you make two €1.40 journeys a day as part of your work commute then you're still only making a maximum saving of 15% on your €1.40 ticket price it seems.

LXFlyer

ballooba wrote: »

It's a direct susbsidy to Dublin Bus by Revenue, no one in their right mind would buy that ticket unless they are on taxsaver.

This has further widened the gap between driving and busing for me. I'd be crazy to take the bus now. It will be €8.40 a day to take the bus, or €6 a day for city centre parking. I live in close to the canal in South City Centre and work close to the canal in North city centre. Madness.

How are you calculating €8.40 a day?

mydiscworld

Don't forget that since the annual/monthly taxsaver tickets are going if, you'd be pretty certain the standard cash/luas fares and rambler tickets will also go up

LXFlyer

We know that the cash fares will go up in the new year. Again the increase in cash fares should be higher in percentage terms than the increase in LEAP fares in order to try to get more people onto LEAP.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

How are you calculating €8.40 a day?

Self and girlfriend, return journey. I'm assuming Leap fares will go up 10%.

dowlingm

If you're essentially car pooling that changes the metrics of most public transport vs car economics in Dublin or elsewhere (although the 6 euro for parking doesn't cover petrol). My wife and I switched from public transport to car + monthly parking pass after we had the kid and were doing daycare runs but I still find myself taking PT 1-6 times a week because our schedules sometimes don't line up. In Toronto we're still waiting for our LEAP equivalent (Presto) to roll out to in-city routes so I have to carry tokens in my wallet just in case I have to dash for the subway.

EDIT: Just checked - 12 monthly metropasses (bus, streetcar, subway) is 1006.68 Euro on the subscription rate and at current exchange rate. A 151 Euro tax rebate can be obtained by filing taxes but only if you actually paid net tax - it's not a "refundable" credit so low income earners are screwed out of it because they don't vote Tory reliably.

LXFlyer

ballooba wrote: »

Self and girlfriend, return journey. I'm assuming Leap fares will go up 10%.

Well when you are car pooling that does change things in terms of comparing the costs.

However, I'd expect LEAP fares to rise by a lower percentage than cash fares.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

Well when you are car pooling that does change things in terms of comparing the costs.

However, I'd expect LEAP fares to rise by a lower percentage than cash fares.

€4.30 bus fare VS €6 City Centre parking for one person on their own. Dublin Bus are kidding themselves. Why would I bother with the bus? Car pooling or not.

dowlingm wrote: »

(although the 6 euro for parking doesn't cover petrol)

How much petrol am I going to use in 15-20 minutes? (Google reckons €1.40 per day) It doesn't even feature on my radar. For the convenience and time saving it's well worth driving.

LXFlyer

Well €1.70 a day would still mount up!! Plus you are not including fuel/tax/depreciation etc.

Are you seriously suggesting that €8.50 extra a week is something you are prepared to pay?

Again - it's the NTA and the government who are setting the fares.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

Well €1.70 a day would still mount up!! Plus you are not including fuel/tax/depreciation etc.

€1.40 a day, not €1.70 and I still save €1 a day versus Dublin Bus. The fares are too expensive. I don't care who sets them, I don't bother with the bus anymore unless I'm drinking. Even then with the money I am saving versus Dublin Bus I can afford to splurge and take a cab. Good riddance to DB and their excuses.

EDIT: I just realised you were comparing my fare as one passenger to my commute. I don't have to make that choice, but I reckon I would still not bother with the bus.

LXFlyer

ballooba wrote: »

€1.40 a day, not €1.70 and I still save €1 a day versus Dublin Bus. The fares are too expensive. I don't care who sets them, I don't bother with the bus anymore unless I'm drinking. Even then with the money I am saving versus Dublin Bus I can afford to splurge and take a cab. Good riddance to DB and their excuses.

EDIT: I just realised you were comparing my fare as one passenger to my commute. I don't have to make that choice, but I reckon I would still not bother with the bus.

Well it does sort of matter who sets the fares and what's driving it.

Dublin Bus is not cutting services anymore, yet its government subsidy is going to drop - that effectively is pushing the cost onto the end user.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

Dublin Bus is not cutting services anymore, yet its government subsidy is going to drop - that effectively is pushing the cost onto the end user.

Dublin Bus have other sources of revenue, like fares for example, but the fare increases are driving paying passengers away.

LXFlyer

ballooba wrote: »

Dublin Bus have other sources of revenue, like fares for example, but the fare increases are driving paying passengers away.

Yes but if a large chunk of their subsidy is withdrawn, and services are maintained - what option do they have but to raise fares?

I'm merely making the point that the government is moving more of the burden onto the end user - it's another form of indirect taxation.

ballooba

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm merely making the point that the government is moving more of the burden onto the end user - it's another form of indirect taxation.

Not if people choose not to use it.

paulieb

More and more people have a free travel pass, someone has to pay for them and it ain't the government.
CIE don't even get €100 a year for providing free unlimited travel to a pass holder on DB,BE and IE.
The paying public are going to be charged €1230 a year just for Dublin bus.

We should send whoever negotiated that deal to Brussels and let them sort out the bank bailout deal. The country would be back on its feet in no time.

dowlingm

ballooba wrote: »

€4.30 bus fare VS €6 City Centre parking for one person on their own. Dublin Bus are kidding themselves. Why would I bother with the bus? Car pooling or not.

How much petrol am I going to use in 15-20 minutes? (Google reckons €1.40 per day) It doesn't even feature on my radar. For the convenience and time saving it's well worth driving.

I certainly wouldn't assert, as you seem to think I am doing, that public transport answers all use cases. By corollary, your use case is just that - yours. There are other people like you too, but you don't speak for all commuting outcomes.

AlekSmart

paulieb wrote: »

More and more people have a free travel pass, someone has to pay for them and it ain't the government.
CIE don't even get €100 a year for providing free unlimited travel to a pass holder on DB,BE and IE.
The paying public are going to be charged €1230 a year just for Dublin bus.

We should send whoever negotiated that deal to Brussels and let them sort out the bank bailout deal. The country would be back on its feet in no time.

Amen to that....

According to the DSP themselves....http://www.welfare.ie/en/downloads/Social%20Stats%20AR%202012_Final.pdf

It's 754,731 passes covering some 1,112,000 individuals....these are the figures for legitimate passes and do not include outdated or otherwise misused passes.

(NB: The total number issued to holders of Pensionable Age is 364,395)

Victor

This seems strange as there is no word of a fare determination by the NTA and I understood that fare changes were being aligned.

http://www.taxsaver.ie/MonthlyRatesNew/Taxsaver-car-Parking-Offer/

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/dublin-commuters-face-price-rises-of-more-than-10-1.1564880

TAXSAVER COMMUTER TICKETS from 1st November 2013
Zonal & All Services Tickets Annual Monthly
DART/Commuter Rail Only (Outer Hop) €1,340 €134
DART/Commuter Rail & Dublin Bus (Short Hop) €1,560 €156
Dublin Bus Only €1,230 €123
Dublin Bus & LUAS €1,450 €145
DART/Commuter Rail + Feeder Services €1,700 ???
DART/Commuter Rail & Luas €1,770 €177
DART/Commuter Rail & Dublin Bus & LUAS €2,180 €218
Iarnród Éireann All Services €4,400 ???
Iarnród Éireann & Bus Eireann All Services €4,980 ???
Iarnród Éireann & Dublin Bus All Services €4,870 ???
Iarnród Éireann & Luas All Services €5,260 ???
All CIE Services €5,870 ???
Student Short Hop Monthly (Dublin Bus & Irish Rail) ??? €119


RAIL Point-Point Sample rates
To/From Dublin Heuston Annual Monthly
Athlone €4,400 €440
Athy €2,900 €290
Ballinasloe €4,400 €440
Ballybrophy €3,400 €340
Carlow €3,150 €315
Clara €3,400 €340
Cork €4,400 ???
Kildare €2,300 €230
Kilkenny €4,400 €440
Limerick €4,400 ???
Mallow €4,400 ???
Monasterevin €2,900 €290
Newbridge €2,100 €210
Portarlington €2,900 €290
Portlaoise €3,150 €315
Sallins/Naas €1,570 €157
Templemore €4,400 €440
Thomastown €4,400 €440
Thurles €4,400 €440
Tullamore €3,400 €340
Extra 350 Annually or 35 Monthly to include Luas & Bus 90/145 to Connolly Station

To/From Dublin Connolly/Pearse Annual Monthly
Arklow €3,150 €315
Belfast €4,680 €468
Drogheda €2,300 €230
Dromod €4,400 €440
Dundalk €3,150 €315
Edgeworthstown €3,800 €380
Enfield €2,100 €210
Gorey €3,400 €340
Gormanstown €1,750 €175
Kilcock €1,570 €157
Laytown €2,100 €210
Longford €4,400 €440
Mullingar €3,150 €315
Newry €3,180 €318
Portadown €3,560 €356
Rathdrum €2,900 €290
Wicklow €2,100 €210

Other Arears Annual Monthly
Cork-Cobh €1,110 €111
Cork-Midleton €1,160 €116
Cork-Mallow €1,750 €175
Galway-Athenry €1,570 €157
Galway-Athlone €3,150 €315
Limerick-Ennis €1,750 €175
Limerick-Thurles €2,900 €290

Cookie_Monster

So raising bus and train fares yet motoring expenses not touched in the budget... So much for the gov trying to get people to use PT.

For anyone considering switching off the (city) buses to save money; use the Bike to Work scheme, get a decent quality bike for less than half the cost of the annual ticket and spend less time stuck in traffic and more time actually enjoying a commute, and getting fit

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

Yes but if a large chunk of their subsidy is withdrawn, and services are maintained - what option do they have but to raise fares?

price rise = lower usage = price rise = lower usage

DB and the NTA really need to understand this is a fact of life and they need to do something other than simply rise the fares until there are no customers left. These fare hikes will without question lose them customers and leave an even bigger revenue gap to fill, when is it going to end?

_Kaiser_

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So raising bus and train fares yet motoring expenses not touched in the budget... So much for the gov trying to get people to use PT.

Motorists spend a fortune in this country - especially if you have an older car as the tax rates are extortionate in most cases compared to post 08 equivalents.

Then you get screwed again come trade in time because no-one wants a car that's not on the "cheap tax" which itself was increased last year thus proving the whole "saving the planet" argument was a lie.

The cost of fuel has only increased in recent years too - most of which is tax

The PT evangelism on this forum fails to take into account the complete unsuitability - or even availability - of it for many motorists (especially outside Dublin, or even within parts of it.. most of the city doesn't have a DART or LUAS line or 46A you know!). You don't think people enjoy spending a fortune on driving or sitting in tailbacks for hours per week do you?

the groutch

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

price rise = lower usage = price rise = lower usage

DB and the NTA really need to understand this is a fact of life and they need to do something other than simply rise the fares until there are no customers left. These fare hikes will without question lose them customers and leave an even bigger revenue gap to fill, when is it going to end?

when the privitisation comes.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

Yes but if a large chunk of their subsidy is withdrawn, and services are maintained - what option do they have but to raise fares?

I'm merely making the point that the government is moving more of the burden onto the end user - it's another form of indirect taxation.

Well, Dublin Bus could cut costs and increase productivity. Costs at Dublin Bus, on a like-for-like basis have increased 14 percent since 2010.

Everybody else providing services is doing more with less, except Dublin Bus.

Victor

It seems that all the fare determinations will issue next week, possibly on Tuesday.

lil5

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, Dublin Bus could cut costs and increase productivity. Costs at Dublin Bus, on a like-for-like basis have increased 14 percent since 2010.

Everybody else providing services is doing more with less, except Dublin Bus.

Precisely the reason why they will get less business from me ...
Started to cycle in June and only regret all the years that I spent money on DB ...

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, Dublin Bus could cut costs and increase productivity. Costs at Dublin Bus, on a like-for-like basis have increased 14 percent since 2010.

Everybody else providing services is doing more with less, except Dublin Bus.

Isn't that what the current dispute is about resolving?

lil5

lxflyer wrote: »

Isn't that what the current dispute is about resolving?

With a guaranteed return to the old rates after 19 months...

Instead of reviewing every single aspect of their cost basis.
And reduce or remove terms that can no longer be paid (rest day pay, overtime rates, attendance bonus, etc.).

LXFlyer

The rates of pay will revert, but there will be reduced schedules at Christmas and in summer which will save fuel costs, and there's nothing to say that, with the far more accurate information that schedulers now have about running times, more efficiencies can be achieved from driver rosters.

But lest this becomes focussed on Dublin Bus and CIE, I would point out that LUAS fares will also likely rise, and indeed Antoin's old company Swords Express is also increasing its fares in November.

R.F.

Its now going to cheaper for me to drive to work every day.

STForSale

Increasing fares / deteriorating service / poorly maintained coaches.
Taxsaver still works out cheaper than running a car for me but I’m beginning to wonder if the saving is worth the misery.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

The rates of pay will revert, but there will be reduced schedules at Christmas and in summer which will save fuel costs, and there's nothing to say that, with the far more accurate information that schedulers now have about running times, more efficiencies can be achieved from driver rosters.

But lest this becomes focussed on Dublin Bus and CIE ...

CIE companies have problems that the others don't. You have to take it in context. Dublin Bus in particular has industrial strife and is taking a massive subsidy of around 50c/customer and are delivering a chronically bad service. Drawing a comparison with a reasonably well run railway which covers its own running costs and with a bus service that covers its own costs and capital is just ridiculous.

LXFlyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, Dublin Bus could cut costs and increase productivity. Costs at Dublin Bus, on a like-for-like basis have increased 14 percent since 2010.

Everybody else providing services is doing more with less, except Dublin Bus.

lil5 wrote: »

With a guaranteed return to the old rates after 19 months...

Instead of reviewing every single aspect of their cost basis.
And reduce or remove terms that can no longer be paid (rest day pay, overtime rates, attendance bonus, etc.).

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

CIE companies have problems that the others don't. You have to take it in context. Dublin Bus in particular has industrial strife and is taking a massive subsidy of around 50c/customer and are delivering a chronically bad service. Drawing a comparison with a reasonably well run railway which covers its own running costs and with a bus service that covers its own costs and capital is just ridiculous.

Antoin is not being completely honest when he makes the comments about increased costs, as included in them are items outside DB's control.

He fails to mention that fuel costs have risen by €3.7m, and that DB were obliged to incur ITS costs related to the LEAP rollout of €1.8m.

He also conveniently doesn't note that in 2010 that third party/employer liability claims were actually very unusually a gain of €1.2m, unlike the usual annual cost of between €6-€7m.

When one strips out the additional ITS costs associated with LEAP, and the third party/employer liability claim costs, then payroll and materials/services costs actually fell by €8.7m between 2010 and 2012, which incorporates the fuel cost increases of €3.7m.

Making a comment that DB are delivering a chronically bad service is really pushing things. While there is still work to be done, there have been significant improvements in the service since 2010:

• Rollout of AVLC system that drives the RTPI for customers
• Network Direct improvements including:
  • Key routes on each corridor now operating directly along the corridor
  • Improved co-ordinated corridor schedules
  • Implementation of clockface schedules
  • Implementation of standard interval headways
  • More cross-city routes
  • Elimination of unnecessary overcapacity and route duplication

I'm certainly not saying that everything is rosy at the company - it obviously is not, and the drivers do of course need to wake up to the financial realities that face the company (and hopefully next week's vote will address this), but to suggest that everything is down to poor management of costs is somewhat off-mark. One tends to need to examine figures in far more detail than just making simple sweeping statements.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

then payroll and materials/services costs actually fell by €8.7m between 2010 and 2012

easy to reduce such costs when you cut a % of you fleet

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Antoin is not being completely honest when he makes the comments about increased costs, as included in them are items outside DB's control.

...

He also conveniently doesn't note that in 2010 that third party/employer liability claims were actually very unusually a gain of €1.2m, unlike the usual annual cost of between €6-€7m.

What you conveniently don't note is that those extra costs are likely because Dublin Bus bullishly went to great legal costs in trying to claim that Data Protection rights did not apply when the person wanted to use footage from bus cameras to sue the company. Data Protection law applies regardless and DB found out the hard way.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

What you conveniently don't note is that those extra costs are likely because Dublin Bus bullishly went to great legal costs in trying to claim that Data Protection rights did not apply when the person wanted to use footage from bus cameras to sue the company. Data Protection law applies regardless and DB found out the hard way.

The only year that the claims cost figure looks out of kilter with the others over the last five years is 2010 when it was bizarrely a gain.

antoinolachtnai

lxflyer wrote: »

Antoin is not being completely honest when he makes the comments about increased costs, as included in them are items outside DB's control.

You are coming on here throwing personal insults at me when I say something you don't like.

The truth is that Dublin Bus has extremely high costs to begin with. Keeping costs static or keeping increases small is not really good enough.

It is true that transport input costs are going up. Everybody has costs outside their control. So they manage and cope with them. For example, transport companies take steps to improve fuel efficiency. Every other transport provider of any scale has already taken steps to moderate fuel use. According to the report on industrial relations, this has not been done at Dublin Bus because of some bizarre dispute.

At the same time, taxi fares have remained the same since 2008

He fails to mention that fuel costs have risen by €3.7m, and that DB were obliged to incur ITS costs related to the LEAP rollout of €1.8m.

ITS should have contributed to greater efficiency. It should have allowed cash operations and lodgement fees to be reduced and it should have reduced dwell time. It didn't. It has actually made dwell time worse.

He also conveniently doesn't note that in 2010 that third party/employer liability claims were actually very unusually a gain of €1.2m, unlike the usual annual cost of between €6-€7m.

So you are saying that Dublin Bus received net income as a result third party/employer liability claims in 2010? Do you have any documentation to support this?

When one strips out the additional ITS costs associated with LEAP, and the third party/employer liability claim costs, then payroll and materials/services costs actually fell by €8.7m between 2010 and 2012, which incorporates the fuel cost increases of €3.7m.

Yes, costs fell a little bit, but the mileage fell by a full 5 percent. Passenger numbers also fell.

That is the problem. Dublin Bus is delivering less than before.

Making a comment that DB are delivering a chronically bad service is really pushing things. While there is still work to be done, there have been significant improvements in the service since 2010:

You say that there have been improvements, but you can't produce any numbers to back that up. All you have is a list of inadequately delivered initiatives.

AVLC has been delivered really badly, using a massive amount of grant money. It is really not very accurate at all. There are phantom buses all over the place.

Network Direct reduced the mileage and turned Dublin Bus into the sort of bus company that could be run as a commercial for-profit operation. It doesn't really serve any outlying areas. The frequencies are very low. 15 minute frequencies on routes like the 4, running through the densest areas of the city, are pathetic.

There are 'clockface' schedules in the timetable, but they are not operated. I stood 35 minutes at the first stop of the No. 4 route on Wednesday waiting for the supposedly 15-minute schedule. Despite being flagged on the real time display, the buses didn't come. The system doesn't work.

You didn't mention that millions of taxpayer money has been spent on new buses, but that it apparently hasn't led to any improvement in terms of fuel efficiency or operational efficiency.

The unit costs at Dublin Bus are just far out of line with norms. They are more than twice as high as in Germany, Scotland or England, and when you take capital costs into account, are more expensive than London.

If everyone wants to go around convincing themselves that everything is ok and a little adjustment here or there is all that's needed, things aren't going to get any better. The whole bus system has been in headlong decline since 2000 at least. No one seems to want to accept that there is a really big problem.

I'm certainly not saying that everything is rosy at the company - it obviously is not, and the drivers do of course need to wake up to the financial realities that face the company (and hopefully next week's vote will address this), but to suggest that everything is down to poor management of costs is somewhat off-mark. One tends to need to examine figures in far more detail than just making simple sweeping statements.

When the costs are two-and-a-half times what other suppliers are charging in similar markets, and DB are delivering a lower quality of service, it is not 'somewhat off-mark' to say that there is poor management of costs.

The personal insinuations you keep making (first that I am not being 'honest' , then that I am 'pushing things' and now that I am making 'simple sweeping statements' are laughable. The truth is that you can't come up with any objective evidence what Dublin Bus is up to. You cannot justify the unjustifiable. Dublin Bus's operating costs are twice as high as they should be and there is no getting away from it.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

The only year that the claims cost figure looks out of kilter with the others over the last five years is 2010 when it was bizarrely a gain.

Sorry, picked you up wrong. I read it as the losses gained by the amount stated.

As you say an actual gain is bizarre.

monument

lxflyer -- re the below:

I should have said something when I first spotted your post: please cut out the personal attacks.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You are coming on here throwing personal insults at me when I say something you don't like.
...
The personal insinuations you keep making (first that I am not being 'honest' , then that I am 'pushing things' and now that I am making 'simple sweeping statements' are laughable. The truth is that you can't come up with any objective evidence what Dublin Bus is up to. You cannot justify the unjustifiable. Dublin Bus's operating costs are twice as high as they should be and there is no getting away from it.

vickers209

Fuel prices have dropped around 15 cent on average than this time last year

2012
Date
.Unleaded Diesel
Dec 159.4 152.7
Nov 161.2 156.0
Oct 168.0 159.0
Sept 170.0 160.0
Aug 163.1 154.0
July 159.3 149.9

reference aa
http://www.theaa.ie/AA/Motoring-advice/~/media/Files/AA%20Ireland/Reports/Fuelprices%20history.ashx

Victor

vickers209 wrote: »

Fuel prices have dropped around 15 cent on average than this time last year

They won't be paying anything near retail rates.

antoinolachtnai

Victor wrote: »

They won't be paying anything near retail rates.

It is close enough and it generally goes up and down in line with the retail rate.

There isn't that much margin. I think we used to get around 5 cent cheaper.

High fuel prices should be good for a public transport company. As fuel prices increase, demand for the public transport product should grow.

_Kaiser_

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

High fuel prices should be good for a public transport company. As fuel prices increase, demand for the public transport product should grow.

Maybe the wrong forum to say this in, but personally I don't think pricing people out of their cars and forcing them onto sub-standard PT (which is what most of it is) is the answer.

Offer a better product that meets the needs of would-be customers rather than that of staff/unions would be a start.

antoinolachtnai

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Maybe the wrong forum to say this in, but personally I don't think pricing people out of their cars and forcing them onto sub-standard PT (which is what most of it is) is the answer.

Offer a better product that meets the needs of would-be customers rather than that of staff/unions would be a start.

No you are quite right. It doesn't work and DB's ever declining customer numbers are the proof.

monument

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Maybe the wrong forum to say this in, but personally I don't think pricing people out of their cars and forcing them onto sub-standard PT (which is what most of it is) is the answer.

Offer a better product that meets the needs of would-be customers rather than that of staff/unions would be a start.

Right forum, and agreed.