Is wearing make-up a 'betrayal'?

B0jangles

Deleted User wrote: »

I can already see this is a topic which will probably not reach any form of conclusion and I'm just going to leave it.

I've just always believed that women are beautiful both with and without make-up and it makes me sad when some women are just completely unable to go out anywhere in how they are naturally. I would much rather work on their insecurities that cause this over having them hide away.

Good day.

n/m

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can already see this is a topic which will probably not reach any form of conclusion and I'm just going to leave it.

I've just always believed that women are beautiful both with and without make-up and it makes me sad when some women are just completely unable to go out anywhere in how they are naturally. I would much rather work on their insecurities that cause this over having them hide away.

Good day.

I find some times without makeup, i can look sick, or more usually, hungover.

Legs.Eleven

B0jangles wrote: »

So you're just going to straight-up ignore the many many posters who talked about how they enjoy experimenting with make-up because it is fun?

I'm sure he acknowledges that, in fairness. I don't think he's saying it's all women's motivation just that he finds it said it applies to some.

B0jangles

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

I'm sure he acknowledges that, in fairness. I don't think he's saying it's all women's motivation just that he finds it said it applies to some.

Yeah, I misread the post at first, hence the edit - Still, I do find it annoying that even with many women here talking about the enjoyment they get out of experimenting with makeup, there are still a few guys who seem to think they know what we're really doing.

It'd be like if a guy said he grows a beard because he likes how it looks and he couldn't be bothered shaving all the time and someone said

"No no no, you do it because it subconciously tells all the men you meet that you are more masculine than them with their feminine baldy faces, (also you probably have a weak chin you're trying to hide.)"

lahalane

Almost all of the reasons for me altering my natural appearance are to do with comfort. My beard gets caught in my zip, long hair itches my forehead, showering makes me feel fresher and less...sticky. I do do things that make me look better too, style my hair, wear good clothes, use aftershave. I only do this stuff when Im going on a night out though which isnt often. A tub of hair gel usually lasts me over a year.

Thats my reasoning for doing it and I know everyone is different. I dont question other peoples reasons for changing their appearance, its up to them....I will wind them up about it though if I think itll amuse me because sometimes I enjoy being a little bollocks. I do the same kind of thing to football fans. I mostly let them know Im messing with them tho...mostly.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Now - I don't think any of these photos improve my looks or would make me better looking than competition.
But, I was bored of an evening, and messed around with makeup. It was a good hour of good fun. I did it because I enjoyed it, not because I wanted to look amazing for the boys after it.

B0jangles

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Now - I don't think any of these photos improve my looks or would make me better looking than competition.
But, I was bored of an evening, and messed around with makeup. It was a good hour of good fun. I did it because I enjoyed it, not because I wanted to look amazing for the boys after it.

Awesome

I've done the same after watching a youtube tutorial on how to do that amazing flamboyant eyemake that drag performers usually wear - twas great fun!

Femme_Fatale

I don't mind guys saying women wear make-up to attract men, as it is a good part of the reason a lot of the time in fairness if you're single. It is of course just for grooming and looking nice too.

It's saying wearing make-up, even just a bit of it, is purely done to compete with other women is the "wtf" claim.

And as for the "It's deceptive and a betrayal" for a woman to wear a bit of make-up (as opposed to the Joan Collins look) - lol. I doubt anyone (anyone normal anyway) really believes that. If any guys genuinely feel that way, the answer is simple: go only for girls whom you're certain are not wearing any make-up.

Zen65

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

If guys don't give a toss about make-up, how come I get far more positive male attention with the bit of make-up that I wear than when I'm bare-faced?

Numerous studies have shown that women are rated as "more attractive" by the vast majority of men and women when they wear make-up. What distorts the understanding is that a woman who applies make-up very well can look as though she is wearing no make-up. Men often confuse "wearing make-up" with "covered in so much make-up that even a man can see it".

Almost every woman will confirm that when she wears a little make-up (typically eyes and lips) she receives more compliments about her appearance, from men and women, and is generally treated better.

A study reported on Today FM this week confirmed that a woman has a better chance of getting a job if she wears some make-up to the interview. This is doubly true if the job involves meeting the public.

So there is an optimum amount to wear, and once you go beyond that you very quickly are seen as "wearing far too much make-up". How much is "too much" varies over the course of a woman's life. While wearing make-up generally portrays confidence, wearing too much conveys insecurity. Most men do not like women to look insecure.

What's true of make-up is also true of clothes. Both men and women enhance their employment / career prospects by dressing well. Shoes are especially important in that regard (even for men, yes!) as they are seen as a good indicator of character.

Women who wear flat shoes at work all day are far less likely to be promoted than colleagues who wear heels (provided they can walk confidently in their heels).

Men who wear rugged shoes all day in the office are less likely to be promoted than their male colleagues who wear more formal shoes.

So, is make-up a betrayal? No! Unless you think having a shower and wearing a suit to work is a betrayal.

Seachmall

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I don't mind guys saying women wear make-up to attract men, as it is a good part of the reason a lot of the time in fairness if you're single. It is of course just for grooming and looking nice too.

It's saying wearing make-up, even just a bit of it, is purely done to compete with other women is the "wtf" claim.

If you were going to some all woman meet up would you wear make up? (For example, if your office was holding a girls only night in a private setting).

If so, why?

You presumably wouldn't do yourself up if were just pottering about the house for the day so clearly makeup is for the benefit of others. With regards to men attraction is the obvious reason, but if its just other women then what possible reason could there be other than some sort of implicit competition?

Zen65

Cyrus Tight Suspect wrote: »

I'm not trying to attract anyone. I already have a fiance. Not trying to compete with anyone either. I just like to look my best.

This is of course true for you at a conscious level.

But all living creatures are genetically programmed to compete. That is a fundamental aspect of our evolved DNA. For humans, that competition includes:

• Becoming physically fitter / stronger / faster than others
• Enhancing our education / qualifications
• Increasing our personal wealth
• Enhancing our physical appearance
• Enhancing our reputation (kindness, success, stories of heroism etc)
• Choosing desirable careers

We do some or all these because it makes us feel good, but also because it enhances our breeding potential. This is true even if we consciously do not wish to have children. It is simply in our nature, and we cannot be ashamed of it because these desires led to our evolution from other life forms.

Z

Femme_Fatale

Seachmall wrote: »

If you were going to some all woman meet up would you were make up? (For example, if your office was holding a girls only night in a private setting).

If so, why?

You presumably wouldn't do yourself up if were just pottering about the house for the day so clearly makeup is for the benefit of others. With regards to men attraction is the obvious reason, but if its just other women then what possible reason could there be other than some sort of implicit competition?

I am going to an all-women get-together tonight, but it will be in two bars frequented by both sexes, and I am getting dolled up... to increase my chances of getting it on with a nice man.

There'll nearly always be a chance of meeting lads, even on hens. Went to a hen meal a few months ago all right where there wasn't a soul of the male persuasion besides the waiters. I made an effort because everyone was making an effort - it was out of respect, not competitiveness (you guys gotta stop thinking you can read minds!) and it being the done thing to get groomed for an event, the way guys would wear a nice shirt and polish their shoes. But I didn't make the same effort that I'd make if there were guys tbh. Just wore a very small bit of make-up.
Although I still ended up with one of the waiters. :pac:

I do agree with you that when women say "I never dress up for anyone else, only for myself" it's kinda bullsh1t. Because as you say, women wouldn't dress up while staying in on a Friday night having takeaway and a few cans/glasses of vino and watching a movie. But saying dressing up is purely to compete with other women is the other extreme statement, and also bullsh1t when it's used against all women. I would say it does apply though to those gals who wear virtually nothing other than agonising high-heels on a miserable or freezing night out in January.

Czarcasm

Seachmall wrote: »

If you were of others. With regards to men attraction is the obvious reason, but if its just other women then what possible reason could there be other than some sort of implicit competition?

To feel good about oneself - when a person feels they look good, they feel good. It's hardly rocket science.

Zen65 wrote: »

This is of course true for you at a conscious level.

But all living creatures are genetically programmed to compete. That is a fundamental aspect of our evolved DNA. For humans, that competition includes:

We do some or all these because it makes us feel good, but also because it enhances our breeding potential. This is true even if we consciously do not wish to have children. It is simply in our nature, and we cannot be ashamed of it because these desires led to our evolution from other life forms.

Z

Yeah see that's the sort of projectionist rocket science that's overthinking an issue and creating an explanation where the answer is quite simply some people feel better about themselves through self development. It's about improving oneself in order to feel good about oneself.

Some people don't particularly care about the opinions of other people, they do things for themselves- like improving their education or their appearance.

Shout Dust

Haven't looked through the thread, so this may have been posted, pornstars before and after makeup. Link is sfw, just shows their heads, the difference in some of them is amazing.

http://imgur.com/a/ynkv8?gallery

Zen65

Shout Dust wrote: »

http://imgur.com/a/ynkv8?gallery

Somebody took the stage name "Veruca". What was she thinking?

lukesmom

Shout Dust wrote: »

Haven't looked through the thread, so this may have been posted, pornstars before and after makeup. Link is sfw, just shows their heads, the difference in some of them is amazing.

http://imgur.com/a/ynkv8?gallery

Wow thanks for posting this I was feeling pretty sh!t about my skin till I looked at these

Shout Dust

lukesmom wrote: »

Wow thanks for posting this I was feeling pretty sh!t about my skin till I looked at these

The skin around their mouths is particularly bad...

Daveysil15

Cyrus Tight Suspect wrote: »

The misogyny in here is really quite depressing and sinister. Women who wear make-up and nice clothes accused of being fake, giving a false impression, talk of 'waking up in the morning' and discovering what women 'really look like'. Making it all about men. Has it ever occurred to you that some women just like looking nice and enjoy experimenting with make-up and nice clothes? I'm not trying to attract anyone. I already have a fiance. Not trying to compete with anyone either. I just like to look my best.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration tbh. lets not turn this into something its not. A guy having an opinion about women that doesn't agree with you isn't necessarily misogynistic. The word misogyny gets thrown about too much imo, and its often unwarranted.

suicide_circus

*stuffs crotch with bunch of socks*

Femme_Fatale

Daveysil15 wrote: »

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration tbh. lets not turn this into something its not. A guy having an opinion about women that doesn't agree with you isn't necessarily misogynistic. The word misogyny gets thrown about too much imo, and its often unwarranted.

I think the term is being applied in this case to the "Women are devious and manipulative - wearing make-up is an example of that" and "Women are bitchy and competitive so they wear make-up only for one-upmanship against other women" type mindsets. Those are pretty hostile attitudes towards women, in fairness.

Daveysil15

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I think the term is being applied in this case to the "Women are devious and manipulative - wearing make-up is an example of that" and "Women are bitchy and competitive so they wear make-up only for one-upmanship against other women" type mindsets. Those are pretty hostile attitudes towards women, in fairness.

How many posters in this thread said women are devious and manipulative though? I still think that claiming there is sinister misogyny going on is a bit OTT.

Daveysil15

Daveysil15 wrote: »

How many posters in this thread said women are devious and manipulative though? I still think that claiming there is sinister misogyny going on is a bit OTT.

One or two have for sure. Don't have time to go back and quote. There are some really disturbing and patronising mindsets present on this thread.

Czarcasm

Cyrus Tight Suspect wrote: »

One or two have for sure. Don't have time to go back and quote. There are some really disturbing and patronising mindsets present on this thread.

Izzy, and I mean this with the greatest of respect, but - You're nearly as bad to be actually taking them so seriously. It's supposed to be a light hearted discussion about the rather silly notion of "betrayal" for improving one's appearance* or just having fun experimenting with themselves! Geez at that rate we're going to start discussing tattoos as a betrayal and a disguise of our "true selves" next! :pac:


*That reminds me, I'd better get this place cleaned up before my wife gets back from Cork, looks like a bomb hit it, "But I didn't want to deceive you, we had a ball in your absence" isn't really going to go down well :pac

Abigayle

Cathy.C wrote: »

Just read the following article online and, although initially I just rolled my eyes, I have to say I do some merit in the point being made.

Make up is only part of the cause of the dramatic change there, she's had her hair done as well, and her un-made up face was taken from a less flattering angle, which is why the face is remarked as looking 'thinner'.

In the made-up face her make up is very heavily done, and very unnatural looking.

As an aside to the matter itself, what we don't know is the circumstances in which she had this done, nor do we know if this is how she would do her own make-up normally. I can't see how you could have your make-up done that heavily and your skin not suffer for it. If she wasn't about to model for something it could have been one of these professional make-up gifts you can get.

What I took from this was not the debate of the rights and wrongs of it, but how this girl must feel about herself since those pictures were put up, and being the butt of the debate itself. One Reddit commenter writes:

"The left is uglier than the right, but beauty is subjective. The right is her wearing a (figurative and literal) mask."

Uglier. Really? what a despicable prick.

Wibbs

lukesmom wrote: »

Wow thanks for posting this I was feeling pretty sh!t about my skin till I looked at these

Some changes there alright, though looking down the list while a fair few are sweet zombie jeebus :eek: pre makeup(no names, no pack drill) a good few look much better (IMHO) sans slap. Tori black and Nicky young to name but two(EDIT the very first woman in the lineup Cassandra another). Both of those would make me go look twice and think "oh hello" minus the makeup, but not with. Then again I do tend to prefer the makeup free or nearly free look(bit of lippy and not much else). I don't mean the "natural" though still with makeup look either, that so many blokes seem to miss. Though subtle is infinitely better than looking like a member of KISS. A lot if not most guys do prefer makeup to some degree though.

It can depend a lot on skin tone I've noticed. Very pale or very dark skin can make features disappear a bit and some subtle slap can really bring out the features already there, especially eyes. A bit of a tan, built in or sun caused seems to take the make up free look better. In general of course.

Daveysil15 wrote:

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration tbh. lets not turn this into something its not. A guy having an opinion about women that doesn't agree with you isn't necessarily misogynistic. The word misogyny gets thrown about too much imo, and its often unwarranted.

+1, especially(and ironically) when it's applied to the overall vibe of a situation, rather than one or two borderline cases in the situation.

Legs.Eleven

Daveysil15 wrote: »

How many posters in this thread said women are devious and manipulative though? I still think that claiming there is sinister misogyny going on is a bit OTT.

To go as far as mysogynistic I wouldn't agree with but some (some!) of the attitudes here are fooking weird to be frank. Fairly dubious opinions.

Tony EH

Originally Posted by Tony EH
Personally, I dislike make up, but I hate the crippling effects that the cosmetic industry inflict upon girls and women every day of their lives.

It may come as some surprise to a lot of women and men too, but most guys couldn't give a tinkers cuss about make-up.

But it's not just make up. Nearly everything about how women dress is fake. Sheer tights, push up/together bras, high heels, figure forming jeans, shaped shirts/blouses etc. It's all a bull**** illusion designed to disguise non-existent shortcomings.

The vast majority of women will even dye their hair at the first signs of a bit of grey.

And don't even get me started on collagen, botox, or other extreme nonsense.

I genuinely feel sorry for the fairer sex. They have so much pressure thrust upon them in this regard. It's an awful psychological burden and for some girls, a terrible handicap.

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Christ that's a fairly depressing picture your painting there.

I would consider the exploitative nature of the cosmetics industry a rather "depressing" (to use your term) situation, wouldn't you?

From an increasingly young age, females are bombarded with images of how they should look and of what products they should buy to attain that look, even though "beauty" is defined in different extremities with every passing decade.

It's an industry that thrives on making women feel **** about themselves in order to sell them a "cure" and that price of that "cure" is often a large strain on a young girls finances.

The entire industry is about subtly breaking down the person and then offering them a "way out".

Read some of the replies on here alone. Pretty girls that are perfectly fine without the warpaint saying that they couldn't go out without it.

Czarcasm

It's called marketing Tony, you're not forced to buy the product if you don't want to.

MonaPizza

I have a weakness for slutty, tarty women so for me I like the sleazy mascara, eyeshadow, dark lipstick, etc. I also like whorish strappy platform stilleto hooker shoes, tight skirts with a big slit up the back and so on. Hence I like makeup on women.

Having said that I don't really like fake accessories like false eyelashes, nails and certainly not fake boobs. Tattoos are ok but not loads of them. A nice slutty tramp stamp.
Hate the Irish orange face makeup though.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

MonaPizza wrote: »

I have a weakness for slutty, tarty women so for me I like the sleazy mascara, eyeshadow, dark lipstick, etc. I also like whorish strappy platform stilleto hooker shoes, tight skirts with a big slit up the back and so on. Hence I like makeup on women.

Having said that I don't really like fake accessories like false eyelashes, nails and certainly not fake boobs. Tattoos are ok but not loads of them. A nice slutty tramp stamp.
Hate the Irish orange face makeup though.

You have awful high standards I can't imagine many live up to your expectations