Gridwest project.

Birdnuts

yop wrote: »

Applicable to many many countries not just Ireland in the EU and worldwide.

Beginning to wonder why you wait here really if it annoys you that much or have you tried to run for politics and try to encourage your opinion on the masses?

Compared with other Western European countries of similar size like Switzerland, Holland, Luxembourg, Austria, Belgium etc. Ireland has certainly suffered more in terms of Economic mismanagement, emigration etc. in the past 90 years. Despite us escaping the devastation of WW2. I don't think I'm unique in being frustrated with many aspects of living in this country but I also recognize its potential if given a chance.

As for politics - the majority of people who vote are still caught up in the phoney war between FG and FF to look at real alternatives. Labour and the greens simply acted as props for both parties in government so you can understand to some extent why many people, particulary the young don't even bother voting anymore.

Anyway i'm not going to say anymore about this as it has gone way off topic already and I'll take my share of the blame for that.

Oldtree

I have been (again) wondering.... Why the new backbone of a 400 kv line has been put into north Mayo. Is this area the centre of industry in Mayo? Would it not have made more sense to put in a line in towards Castlebar, making it equidistant to both north and south mayo?

Eirgrid's statement about the rationale for the new proposed new line is categorical about the need for the line to export renewable power from Mayo. I think it is no secret that the intention is to export much of this renewable power from this Mayo to the UK, as it will command a premium.

When we export renewable power to the UK these is no way to distinguish the power taken from our grid, as against say peat produced power, at the converter station adjacent to the interconnector.

Given the above, would underground HVDC line/lines (perhaps in a tunnel/pipe type system) to allow for further lines to be installed easily and repairs) to run from Mayo to the interconnector directly, thus guaranteeing that the power sold to the UK is genuinely renewable, be possible. This line can also pick up from other renewable vendors along the way. This will pay for itself and more, as it would seem to do for private concerns from the midlands. I would envisage that excess/needed renewable power could also be returned to the Irish grid from the converter station adjacent to the interconnector.

As is also very important that the Mayo grid is upgraded too, could this above idea be combined with underground cables less than 400kv HVAC, say 2 x 200kv HVAC or 4 x 100kv HVAC. If it is suitable (from an industrial needs viewpoint in Mayo) then the extra costs involved in undergrounding this set of cables would come from the direct export of genuinely renewable power to the UK.

I understand that there are proposals for pipeworks to extend from the Shannon to Dublin to feed the water demand there.

Oldtree

Oldtree wrote: »

and this presentation on alternative designs for overhead pylons that appear to have less of a visual impact:

http://www.scottishrenewables.com/media/uploads/events/ac2013/planning_grid_plenary_2.pdf

oscarBravo wrote: »

Nice. Do you think we'd have less opposition to the project if the line carriers were more attractive?

I don't know, but I would be realistic. I was thinking more along the lines that if An Bord Pleanala approved the line could ABP be persuaded to be progressive and ask Eirgrid to do something like the above.

wertuoi

Thought this was an interesting letter published in The Irish Examiner:

Five key pylon questions that need to be asked
Friday, November 15, 2013

Michael Flynn (Letters, Nov. 12) promotes the idea of burying power cables "by the side of dual carriageways".

He might do better to advise burying the current Eirgrid pylon-corridor travesty into oblivion altogether. But before any burying takes place, he might also like to openly seek clarification on five key questions:

1. What precise or urgent projection for foreseeable national grid (Irish) requirement prompts such a massive grid line construction?

2. What portion of the electricity transported via this new pylon line, will be destined for essential use in Ireland?

3. Is the electricity to be carried solely for export-profit to private windfarm companies?

4. What is the exact profile, past history and influence of the privately-owned windfarm entrepreneurs on this project?

5. Is Communications, Energy and Natural Resources Minister Rabbitte fully aware of all the full and authentic answers to the above questions?

We need the truth, the full truth and nothing but the full truth. What we don’t need is a spurious and damaging infrastructure with little or no relevance to legitimate national electric power requirement, but very lucrative for a greedy few.

Where is egalitarian democracy in all of this?

jonny d

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10224577/


Link to last nights Primetime debate on Eirgrids projects.

finisklin

Interesting angle on this by SF

Charlestown-based Sinn Fein councillor Gerry Murray has expressed concerns over the proximity of the preferred route corridor for the Gridwest project to flight paths at Ireland West Airport Knock.

He says written reassurances are needed from airport management and aviation authorities that the Gridwest project will not compromise the future development of the airport.

Is there merit in this?

runawaybishop

finisklin wrote: »

Interesting angle on this by SF

Charlestown-based Sinn Fein councillor Gerry Murray has expressed concerns over the proximity of the preferred route corridor for the Gridwest project to flight paths at Ireland West Airport Knock.

He says written reassurances are needed from airport management and aviation authorities that the Gridwest project will not compromise the future development of the airport.

Is there merit in this?

Cant see how there would be

Avns1s

finisklin wrote: »

Interesting angle on this by SF

Charlestown-based Sinn Fein councillor Gerry Murray has expressed concerns over the proximity of the preferred route corridor for the Gridwest project to flight paths at Ireland West Airport Knock.

He says written reassurances are needed from airport management and aviation authorities that the Gridwest project will not compromise the future development of the airport.

Is there merit in this?

Course there is!!!!! There may be political capital to be made out of tugging at the heart strings of the poor vulnerable electorate that might vote for a Sinn Fein Councillor!

finisklin

Avns1s wrote: »

Course there is!!!!! There may be political capital to be made out of tugging at the heart strings of the poor vulnerable electorate that might vote for a Sinn Fein Councillor!

Crikey.....what about the issue of grid west's proximity to the airport? This hasn't been raised previous and seems far fetched to me.

Avns1s

finisklin wrote: »

Crikey.....what about the issue of grid west's proximity to the airport? This hasn't been raised previous and seems far fetched to me.

Seems far fetched to me too. Unless they put the pylons on the runway, the nature of the site on which the Airport is built, will mean that anything flying in or out will be well above them.

Perhaps this councillor is concerned that the planes my develop malignant tumours on their black boxes from the electromagnetic radiation he probably believes is emitted by the powerlines!

Given that the majority of councillors have so little to contribute to anything that advances any county, it never ceases to amaze me just how quickly they spot an opportunity to advance their own cause!

joela

Amazing how many people suddenly care about the landscape and the environment ......... so many NIMBYs it is unbelievable. Also the amount of engineering experts and economic boffins amongst the general public is simply amazing. Everyone wants the electricity, just not in their back yard or at any additional cost. Same attitude on display regarding turbines yet these are the people building one off houses all over the countryside, cutting turf on protected sites, dumping rubbish, burning rubbish, allowing slurry to pour off their land into the watercourses and more. Watching the Prime Time programme made me absolutely sick to the stomach, not about EirGrid but the hypocrisy of the general public, the mé féiner attitude ( because this will end up somewhere if not your back yard) and the general boorishness and hostility on display from the audience. Whatever about your thoughts on EirGrid not engaging or disliking the pylons the people on PrimeTime last night did their cause no favours with their behaviour. I'm disgusted at the hypocrisy and ignorance on display last night and indeed in places on this thread.

lotusm

joela wrote: »

Amazing how many people suddenly care about the landscape and the environment ......... so many NIMBYs it is unbelievable. Also the amount of engineering experts and economic boffins amongst the general public is simply amazing. Everyone wants the electricity, just not in their back yard or at any additional cost. Same attitude on display regarding turbines yet these are the people building one off houses all over the countryside, cutting turf on protected sites, dumping rubbish, burning rubbish, allowing slurry to pour off their land into the watercourses and more. Watching the Prime Time programme made me absolutely sick to the stomach, not about EirGrid but the hypocrisy of the general public, the mé féiner attitude ( because this will end up somewhere if not your back yard) and the general boorishness and hostility on display from the audience. Whatever about your thoughts on EirGrid not engaging or disliking the pylons the people on PrimeTime last night did their cause no favours with their behaviour. I'm disgusted at the hypocrisy and ignorance on display last night and indeed in places on this thread.

Sounds like a speech a green party member would make . Was that Ryan on prime time last night whose party was whipped out in da last election. Can't believe he is on eirgrids side. Its easy talk when you dont live these areas. All these powerfull companies think they can walk all over the ordinary people of this country. Enough is enough

lotusm

joela wrote: »

Amazing how many people suddenly care about the landscape and the environment ......... so many NIMBYs it is unbelievable. Also the amount of engineering experts and economic boffins amongst the general public is simply amazing. Everyone wants the electricity, just not in their back yard or at any additional cost. Same attitude on display regarding turbines yet these are the people building one off houses all over the countryside, cutting turf on protected sites, dumping rubbish, burning rubbish, allowing slurry to pour off their land into the watercourses and more. Watching the Prime Time programme made me absolutely sick to the stomach, not about EirGrid but the hypocrisy of the general public, the mé féiner attitude ( because this will end up somewhere if not your back yard) and the general boorishness and hostility on display from the audience. Whatever about your thoughts on EirGrid not engaging or disliking the pylons the people on PrimeTime last night did their cause no favours with their behaviour. I'm disgusted at the hypocrisy and ignorance on display last night and indeed in places on this thread.

Sounds like a speech a green party member would make . Was that Ryan on prime time last night whose party was whipped out in da last election. Can't believe he is on eirgrids side. Its easy talk when you dont live these areas. All these powerfull companies think they can walk all over the ordinary people of this country. Enough is enough

joela

lotusm wrote: »

Sounds like a speech a green party member would make . Was that Ryan on prime time last night whose party was whipped out in da last election. Can't believe he is on eirgrids side. Its easy talk when you dont live these areas. All these powerfull companies think they can walk all over the ordinary people of this country. Enough is enough

Ordinary people who suddenly care about the countryside because they are NIMBY's. You don't have copyright to being ordinary because you oppose the very thing powering your computer, there are many of us who are ordinary who have genuine care for the countryside and environment and are sickened by the hypocrisy of posters like yourselves. Always the assumption as well that we don't live in the area. It will go in someone's area but just not yours is what you are actually saying. As for the ridiculous Eamon Ryan comment, laughable.

There are no sides, none, EirGrid is a semi-state company working to upgrade the grid which needs doing but apparently just not in your back yard. Everyone wants the electricity but just not at any additional cost or in their back yard, at least be honest and admit that is what it is.

Birdnuts

joela wrote: »

Ordinary people who suddenly care about the countryside because they are NIMBY's. You don't have copyright to being ordinary because you oppose the very thing powering your computer, there are many of us who are ordinary who have genuine care for the countryside and environment and are sickened by the hypocrisy of posters like yourselves. Always the assumption as well that we don't live in the area. It will go in someone's area but just not yours is what you are actually saying. As for the ridiculous Eamon Ryan comment, laughable.

There are no sides, none, EirGrid is a semi-state company working to upgrade the grid which needs doing but apparently just not in your back yard. Everyone wants the electricity but just not at any additional cost or in their back yard, at least be honest and admit that is what it is.

Eamonn Ryan appears to be a full time lobbyiest for the wind industry these days which is why he supports these pylon developments. He is basically driving a stake through whats left of the party since many of the members away from Ryans D4 elite base also oppose this mad 3 billion euro experiment being conducted with our grid. He also wants to copy Denmark with their ultra expensive wind based power grid. Given the price people are paying in that country for power - the same thing here would mean alot less time on the computer etc. for ordinary people.

lotusm

joela wrote: »

Ordinary people who suddenly care about the countryside because they are NIMBY's. You don't have copyright to being ordinary because you oppose the very thing powering your computer, there are many of us who are ordinary who have genuine care for the countryside and environment and are sickened by the hypocrisy of posters like yourselves. Always the assumption as well that we don't live in the area. It will go in someone's area but just not yours is what you are actually saying. As for the ridiculous Eamon Ryan comment, laughable.

There are no sides, none, EirGrid is a semi-state company working to upgrade the grid which needs doing but apparently just not in your back yard. Everyone wants the electricity but just not at any additional cost or in their back yard, at least be honest and admit that is what it is.

you would a make great spokesperson for eirgrid. Never heard such tripe. I don't live in the areas affected so don't give me that crap " own back yard" blah blah blah. Easy talk when you don't live below one. Again good riddance to Ryan & co.

monument

Birdnuts wrote: »

Eamonn Ryan appears to be full time lobbyiest for the wind industry these days which is why he supports these pylon developments. He is basically driving a stake through whats left of the party since many of the members away from Ryans D4 elite base also oppose this mad 3 billion euro experiment being conducted with our grid. He also wants to copy Denmark with their ultra expensive wind based power grid. Given the price people are paying in that country for power - the same thing here would mean alot less time on the computer etc. for ordinary people.

A good deal better than those who are scaremongering about power causing cancer.

joela

Birdnuts wrote: »

Eamonn Ryan appears to be a full time lobbyiest for the wind industry these days which is why he supports these pylon developments. He is basically driving a stake through whats left of the party since many of the members away from Ryans D4 elite base also oppose this mad 3 billion euro experiment being conducted with our grid. He also wants to copy Denmark with their ultra expensive wind based power grid. Given the price people are paying in that country for power - the same thing here would mean alot less time on the computer etc. for ordinary people.

Birdnuts I know you are very interested in nature and I often read your posts on same so at least where you are concerned it isn't this faux concern for the environment which I find so hypocritical. However, I disagree with your entrenched stance on this and couldn't give a crap about Eamon Ryan or the Green Party as I am not involved with either.

The grim reality is this, power is and will continue to get more expensive as the easy to reach fossil fuels run out and the harder to reach requires greater cost. Whether you like or dislike wind is not and should not be part of the debate regarding strengthening the grid, it needs to be done. Undergrounding the lines is an engineering nightmare and I personally have greater concern about the environmental damage from construction and operation of underground lines. I don't want to get into the argument whether undergrounding is feasible or not because, while I hold my own opinion, I do not have sufficient understanding of the complex electrical engineering of HV lines. I also believe there is an unbelievable amount of hypocrisy, scaremongering and codology on display here, see recent posts from lotusm, and on programmes like Prime Time which do nothing to help people understand the reasons for the grid upgrade or to allay fears. I find it incredibly amusing (bemusing?) that so many people are suddenly engineering experts and environmental activists when most couldn't give a damn about damage to protected habitats and species otherwise. Hypocrisy and nimbyism for sure.

joela

lotusm wrote: »

you would a make great spokesperson for eirgrid. Never heard such tripe. I don't live in the areas affected so don't give me that crap " own back yard" blah blah blah. Easy talk when you don't live below one. Again good riddance to Ryan & co.

How do you know anything about where I live? I could live beneath a 400 or 220kV line for all you know. Also you clearly are deluded if you think my pointing out the hypocrisy in this sudden concern for the environment is "tripe". I speak for myself and no one else but apparently you are the voice for "ordinary people" :rolleyes::rolleyes: Hypocrite!

Birdnuts

joela wrote: »

The grim reality is this, power is and will continue to get more expensive as the easy to reach fossil fuels run out and the harder to reach requires greater cost. Whether you like or dislike wind is not and should not be part of the debate regarding strengthening the grid, it needs to be done. .

I outlined my views on this assumption which i believe is flawed earlier in the thread. In any case Ryan himself stated that a large number of gas fired power stations will be needed to back up wind so it does indeed beg the question about what is the point in all this wind infrastruture??. Same thing with Germany in their increasing use of coal to support wind energy on the grid. Anyways I'm going back over old ground so I'll leave it there for now.

yop

Mod Note: I already mentioned it earlier in the thread about keeping this civil, 1 warning handed out, any more and it won't be a warning.

oscarBravo

Birdnuts wrote: »

In any case Ryan himself stated that a large number of gas fired power stations will be needed to back up wind so it does indeed beg the question about what is the point in all this wind infrastruture??.

If I put solar panels on my roof I'll still need an ESB connection to back up the solar so what's the point in all the solar panels?

Same thing with Germany in their increasing use of coal to support wind energy on the grid.

Germany is using coal mostly to back up a misguided policy of abandoning nuclear power, as I understand it.

Oldtree

oscarBravo wrote: »

If I put solar panels on my roof I'll still need an ESB connection to back up the solar so what's the point in all the solar panels?

not unless you had a battery setup as backup storage
I thought about this and incorporated Valve solar panels in the design of a planned house for hot water. Certainly not from a cost perspective as it will take a long time to recoup the set up costs, but because I support the idea and wanted genuinely renewable power to be used in my home.

If Eirgrid were to allow home owners/business to all have small turbines with a connection to the grid, would this not help the availability of locally produced renewable power? The offset of power produced against power used would be fair, would it not?

Birdnuts

oscarBravo wrote: »

If I put solar panels on my roof I'll still need an ESB connection to back up the solar so what's the point in all the solar panels? .

Micro renewables for a single house are a totally different kettle of fish to running an entire grid and related power stations. Its like comparing a childs bike to a diesel locomotive in terms of complexity and management.

oscarBravo

Oldtree wrote: »

not unless you had a battery setup as backup storage

Well, no.

You haven't refuted my analogy; merely introduced a separate objection. The flaw in Birdnuts' argument is the idea that if you need to have fossil fuel generation to back up renewables, then you might as well not have renewables. By the same token, if a solar panel can't always supply the entire requirements of the house, does that mean there's no value whatsoever to having a solar panel?

As for energy storage, that's the flip-side of the argument: what do you do when you're generating more electricity from renewables than you can use? One answer is pumped storage; another is to export it to somewhere that it can be used.

I thought about this and incorporated Valve solar panels in the design of a planned house for hot water. Certainly not from a cost perspective as it will take a long time to recoup the set up costs, but because I support the idea and wanted genuinely renewable power to be used in my home.

You might want to have a word with Birdnuts. He appears to be implacably opposed to the idea of renewable energy.

If Eirgrid were to allow home owners/business to all have small turbines with a connection to the grid, would this not help the availability of locally produced renewable power? The offset of power produced against power used would be fair, would it not?

It's one vision of the future, sure. Is it a realistic alternative to the Grid West proposal? Probably not.

Birdnuts wrote: »

Micro renewables for a single house are a totally different kettle of fish to running an entire grid and related power stations. Its like comparing a childs bike to a diesel locomotive in terms of complexity and management.

That's just hand-waving; it's not a rebuttal.

Oldtree

It may not be an alternative but it is a complement to it, along with a myriad of other innovative smaller scale ideas. Oscar this may interest you from the SEAI:

"Batteries fitted in electric vehicles offer Ireland the opportunity to store electricity from our high wind and ocean renewable energy resources, reducing dependence on imported fossil fuels."

http://www.seai.ie/Your_Business/Technology/Industry/Electric_Vehicles.pdf

oscarBravo

Oldtree wrote: »

It may not be an alternative but it is a complement to it, along with a myriad of other innovative smaller scale ideas. Oscar this may interest you from the SEAI:

"Batteries fitted in electric vehicles offer Ireland the opportunity to store electricity from our high wind and ocean renewable energy resources, reducing dependence on imported fossil fuels."

http://www.seai.ie/Your_Business/Technology/Industry/Electric_Vehicles.pdf

Sure. I'm all in favour of micro-generation.

lotusm

joela wrote: »

How do you know anything about where I live? I could live beneath a 400 or 220kV line for all you know. Also you clearly are deluded if you think my pointing out the hypocrisy in this sudden concern for the environment is "tripe". I speak for myself and no one else but apparently you are the voice for "ordinary people" :rolleyes::rolleyes: Hypocrite!

Mod Note: I warned about this already. Banned for ignoring.

ethical

Was talking to a mate down West today and she told me that the local FG Td need not put his name on the ballot paper for the next election as he has done 'sweet fa',(her words) for the concerns of the affected people in the areas affected by Eirgrid who like other multi nationals feel that they can ride roughshod over the'locals' and get away with it,what value human life?

runawaybishop

ethical wrote: »

t,what value human life?

People will die if the lines go up?