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Gridwest project.

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13567…16

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    #62
    irishgeo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,493 ✭✭✭irishgeo


    finisklin wrote: »
    Western people has it as 150ft or the height of a ten story building. They superimposed a pylon on the local landscape for a photo and it is a big mother"%&*er. It has 6 lines running through it.

    Make no mistake they are massive and noise pollution is a certainty. Definitely will spoil the view of the lake for some as well.

    http://www.westernpeople.com/2013/10/21/north-mayo-residents-ready-to-resist-grid-west/


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    #63
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    irishgeo wrote: »
    anyone got a google maps links to a current 400kv line just to judge the height of the pylons.

    http://goo.gl/maps/rURBy


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    #64
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    finisklin wrote: »
    Western people has it as 150ft or the height of a ten story building.
    Doesn't sound right. As far as I know, the minimum safety clearance for 400kV is 12m. Allow another 5m for the maximum height of a road-legal vehicle, and you have wires 17m above ground. Add a few metres for the catenary shape of the wires and another few for the earth wires on top, you're still a long way short of 150'.
    They superimposed a pylon on the local landscape for a photo and it is a big mother"%&*er.
    The photo they used is of a double-line carrier. There are six phases (2x3) on it, with two conductors in each. To the best of my knowledge, the existing 400kV backbone in Ireland only carries three pairs of conductors plus the two earth wires. The street map view I linked above shows the actual pylons that would likely be used.


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    #65
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    It doesn't matter what height it is, they have no rights to build it.


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    #66
    TopTec
    Registered Users Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭TopTec


    loremolis wrote: »
    It doesn't matter what height it is, they have no rights to build it.

    Course they do. If they have planning permission they will build it. Irrespective of what local people want. The local people elected their councillors to act on their behalf. If the councillors vote to pass the plans then the local people can vote them out at the next election.

    Only pressure on those that make decisions will make any difference.

    That's how democracy works.

    TT


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    #67
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    TopTec wrote: »
    Course they do. If they have planning permission they will build it. Irrespective of what local people want. The local people elected their councillors to act on their behalf. If the councillors vote to pass the plans then the local people can vote them out at the next election.

    Only pressure on those that make decisions will make any difference.

    That's how democracy works.

    TT

    No they don't have the rights to build it.
    Planning permission doesn't give then any rights to build.

    What have councillors got to do with it?


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    #68
    Avns1s
    Registered Users Posts: 3,422 ✭✭✭Avns1s


    TopTec wrote: »
    Course they do. If they have planning permission they will build it. Irrespective of what local people want. The local people elected their councillors to act on their behalf. If the councillors vote to pass the plans then the local people can vote them out at the next election.

    Only pressure on those that make decisions will make any difference.

    That's how democracy works.

    TT

    Councillors don't have any role in the planning decisions. They do have a role in the drafting of the County Development Plan which informs / guides the officials when they are making decisions in respect of a planning application.

    Ironically, "local people" can input to the drafting of the County Development Plan also.


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    #69
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    loremolis wrote: »
    No they don't have the rights to build it.
    Planning permission doesn't give then any rights to build.

    What have councillors got to do with it?

    If you get planning permission it probably does.


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    #70
    finisklin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭finisklin


    The county development plan is an aspirational exercise that tries to involve as many stakeholders as possible and address any concerns, issues proposals etc that they have. It goes into detail on strategy, mission statement and
    individual area objectives.

    On the whole does it guide and set out what exactly the county council is going to do over the period 2008 - 2014 or 2014-2020? No it doesn't and interestingly nor does it propose how to finance any of the activities identified.

    The idea of a 6 year development plan is far fetched as no one can forecast that far in advance. 1-3 years probably more realistic. The grid west project is not included in the 2008-2014 plan and there are strong advocates that it goes against the plan's core principle of sustainable development.

    With regards to the point of the county councillors and their role in the process - it is moot. It is the public servants that are running this and making the decisions. The councillors role in this is completely overstated and only serves to gauge public opinion. Plus there is an election next year and this is definitely making them more vocal - pathetic and all as it is.


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    #71
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    yop wrote: »
    If you get planning permission it probably does.

    What do you mean?


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    #72
    TopTec
    Registered Users Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭TopTec


    loremolis wrote: »
    Planning permission doesn't give then any rights to build.

    How do you work that one out?

    TT


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    #73
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    TopTec wrote: »
    How do you work that one out?

    TT

    It's a fundental principle of planning law that a grant of planning permission does
    not in itself entitle the person granted the permission the right to carry out the development.

    If you allowed me to apply for planning permission on your land and the permission is granted does that mean I can construct it? The answer is no.


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    #74
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    loremolis wrote: »
    It's a fundental principle of planning law that a grant of planning permission does
    not in itself entitle the person granted the permission the right to carry out the development.

    If you allowed me to apply for planning permission on your land and the permission is granted does that mean I can construct it? The answer is no.

    So I was as well not to apply for planning permission for our house as the owner who sold it to me said it was sound to build on it. As planning permission was pointless.


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    #75
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    yop wrote: »
    So I was as well not to apply for planning permission for our house as the owner who sold it to me said it was sound to build on it. As planning permission was pointless.

    You are confusing permission of a lanowner to apply for planning permission and permission of the landowner to implement the permission.

    They are separate.


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    #76
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    loremolis wrote: »
    You are confusing permission of a lanowner to apply for planning permission and permission of the landowner to implement the permission.

    They are separate.

    And thats where the CPO comes in, if that was the case we would have no large road networks or ESB networks etc.

    I'm not confused what so ever.


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    #77
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    yop wrote: »
    And thats where the CPO comes in, if that was the case we would have no large road networks or ESB networks etc.

    I'm not confused what so ever.

    Back to my original point. They, Eirgrid, has no right to build this line because Eirgrid has no powers of compulsory purchase.


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    #78
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    loremolis wrote: »
    Back to my original point. They, Eirgrid, has no right to build this line because Eirgrid has no powers of compulsory purchase.

    But the state have the power of compulsory and eirgrid is state owned?


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    #79
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    yop wrote: »
    But the state have the power of compulsory and eirgrid is state owned?

    Nope, it doesn't work like that.

    If Eirgrid gets the permission then Eirgrid needs the permission of the landowner or needs the statutory power to carry out the development without the landowners permission.

    It might buy the former but it doesn't have the latter.


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    #80
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,724 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    loremolis wrote: »
    Nope, it doesn't work like that.

    If Eirgrid gets the permission then Eirgrid needs the permission of the landowner or needs the statutory power to carry out the development without the landowners permission.

    It might buy the former but it doesn't have the latter.

    It has loads of money, suspect the former.


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    #81
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    yop wrote: »
    It has loads of money, suspect the former.

    Any money eirgrid has is paid for by electricity customers.

    Not everyone can be bought.


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    #82
    TopTec
    Registered Users Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭TopTec


    All the planning files I have seen carry letters/authority from the owner of the lands giving permission to build.In this case either that or CPO's for the relevant land would be part of the consent conditions on the notice of decision.

    Without either what would be the point of applying for planning. So your point is entirely moot, do you not think?

    In any case, planning in respect of Regional or National projects revert to National Government to authorise so unfortunately, as I understand the legislation, County bodies matter not.

    TT


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    #83
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    loremolis wrote: »
    Back to my original point. They, Eirgrid, has no right to build this line because Eirgrid has no powers of compulsory purchase.
    They don't need compulsory purchase. As I understand it, they are "statutory undertakers", which gives them the right to erect necessary infrastructure without planning permission and without purchasing the land where the pylons will go.


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    #84
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,080 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    loremolis wrote: »
    Nope, it doesn't work like that.

    If Eirgrid gets the permission then Eirgrid needs the permission of the landowner or needs the statutory power to carry out the development without the landowners permission.

    It might buy the former but it doesn't have the latter.

    Eirgrid can use CPOs. As with other agencies who have CPO powers, they look to buy the permission without using a CPO, which can work out to be a cheaper.

    http://www.eirgrid.com/media/Strategic%20Overview.pdf

    oscarBravo wrote: »
    They don't need compulsory purchase. As I understand it, they are "statutory undertakers", which gives them the right to erect necessary infrastructure without planning permission and without purchasing the land where the pylons will go.

    As far as I can see projects like this need permission from ABP.


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    #85
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    They don't need compulsory purchase. As I understand it, they are "statutory undertakers", which gives them the right to erect necessary infrastructure without planning permission and without purchasing the land where the pylons will go.

    Where did you get this from?


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    #86
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    TopTec wrote: »
    All the planning files I have seen carry letters/authority from the owner of the lands giving permission to build.In this case either that or CPO's for the relevant land would be part of the consent conditions on the notice of decision.

    Without either what would be the point of applying for planning. So your point is entirely moot, do you not think?

    In any case, planning in respect of Regional or National projects revert to National Government to authorise so unfortunately, as I understand the legislation, County bodies matter not.

    TT

    Are you telling me that you've seen applications for high voltage power lines where all or even some of the landowners have given permission to eirgrid to make the application in their land? If so, where.? If not, what do you mean?

    Have you ever seen a permission for an electricity line where the landowners consent is a condition? I don't think so.

    National government???
    You mean strategic infrastructure applications to an bord Pleanala?


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    #87
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    monument wrote: »
    Eirgrid can use CPOs. As with other agencies who have CPO powers, they look to buy the permission without using a CPO, which can work out to be a cheaper.

    http://www.eirgrid.com/media/Strategic%20Overview.pdf



    As far as I can see projects like this need permission from ABP.

    The only time eirgrid have CPO powers is for an interconnector. Even then they must be granted those by the CER.


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    #88
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    My mistake. They don't seem to need planning permission for regular poles and the line, but HV transmission structures seem to involve planning permission.

    That said, I'm automatically suspicious when people start going on about ESB having "no right" to build transmission lines. So, loremolis: can you explain exactly what you mean when you say "planning permission doesn't give them any rights to build" - can you define "rights" in this context?


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    #89
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    My mistake. They don't seem to need planning permission for regular poles and the line, but HV transmission structures seem to involve planning permission.

    That said, I'm automatically suspicious when people start going on about ESB having "no right" to build transmission lines. So, loremolis: can you explain exactly what you mean when you say "planning permission doesn't give them any rights to build" - can you define "rights" in this context?

    They have no statutory powers to compulsorily acquire land, rights over land or wayleaves for electricity lines.

    In order to build the lines they need the statutory right to enter onto privately owned land. They have no such power and therefore no right.


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    #90
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    loremolis wrote: »
    They have no statutory powers to compulsorily acquire land, rights over land or wayleaves for electricity lines.

    In order to build the lines they need the statutory right to enter onto privately owned land. They have no such power and therefore no right.

    So the entire existing grid is illegal?


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    #91
    loremolis
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    So the entire existing grid is illegal?

    That's quite a jump on your behalf. I didn't say that.

    If they get agreement from a landowner to put up that part of the line then that's the landowners right to grant without the need for a compulsory acquisition.

    When the landowner doesn't agree and they pretend to serve a way leave notice to force entry, that part of the line has no right to be there.


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