Gridwest project.

oscarBravo

loremolis wrote: »

That's quite a jump on your behalf. I didn't say that.

If they get agreement from a landowner to put up that part of the line then that's the landowners right to grant without the need for a compulsory acquisition.

When the landowner doesn't agree and they pretend to serve a way leave notice to force entry, that part of the line has no right to be there.

So how much of the existing grid has no right to be there? And can any landowner at any time withdraw a wayleave and cause part of a 400kV line to have to be re-routed?

loremolis

oscarBravo wrote: »

So how much of the existing grid has no right to be there? And can any landowner at any time withdraw a wayleave and cause part of a 400kV line to have to be re-routed?

How much? In my opinion, a lot of bit.

Can you withdraw a way leave? In the UK you give the electricity company 3 months to remove their equipment which they must donor compulsorily acquire another way leave for a specific period of time.

Here we haven't gotten that far yet. I've never even seen a written wayleave for an electricity line here yet.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/4319FA63-D2D7-4E76-9A8F-B69016A1B63E/0/FOI20112RequestandReply.pdf

Read the last 6 or 7 pages.

oscarBravo

loremolis wrote: »

How much? In my opinion, a lot of bit.

Can you withdraw a way leave? In the UK you give the electricity company 3 months to remove their equipment which they must donor compulsorily acquire another way leave for a specific period of time.

Here we haven't gotten that far yet. I've never even seen a written wayleave for an electricity line here yet.

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/4319FA63-D2D7-4E76-9A8F-B69016A1B63E/0/FOI20112RequestandReply.pdf

Read the last 6 or 7 pages.

Interesting.

In your opinion, is it in the interest of the country as a whole that an individual landowner should have the right to withdraw wayleave from Eirgrid?

Is it your opinion that the desire of a landowner not to have transmission lines over his or her land overrides the right of the rest of the country to have electricity available to heat our homes and run our businesses?

loremolis

oscarBravo wrote: »

Interesting.

In your opinion, is it in the interest of the country as a whole that an individual landowner should have the right to withdraw wayleave from Eirgrid?

Is it your opinion that the desire of a landowner not to have transmission lines over his or her land overrides the right of the rest of the country to have electricity available to heat our homes and run our businesses?

Interesting yes, but if you understood it you wouldn't ask those two questions.

You don't understand it so you choose to ignore it.

Fact: Eirgrid has no wayleave powers so there are no wayleave rights acquired for its lines.

Do you know what a wayleave is?

Have you ever seen a written Eirgrid wayleave?

yop

loremolis wrote: »

Interesting yes, but if you understood it you wouldn't ask those two questions.

You don't understand it so you choose to ignore it.

Fact: Eirgrid has no wayleave powers so there are no wayleave rights acquired for its lines.

Do you know what a wayleave is?

Have you ever seen a written Eirgrid wayleave?

Who says that OB doesnt understand? For all we know you don't.
So what makes you an expert?

loremolis

yop wrote: »

Who says that OB doesnt understand? For all we know you don't.
So what makes you an expert?

Why don't you read it, make up your own mind and discuss it then.

You jump in with no opinion and criticise mine?

TopTec

So in essence, Loremoris, it is your contention that some, most, or if not all, of the National grid network has been built unlawfully. Furthermore, Eirgrid continue to act unlawfully by entering property/land not belonging to them and without the owners permission, to carry out maintenance?

Also, if a landowner wanted to he/she could legally prevent Eirgrid from entering upon their land and insist, using land law if necessary, they remove anything erected thereon?

TT

loremolis

TopTec wrote: »

So in essence, Loremoris, it is your contention that some, most, or if not all, of the National grid network has been built unlawfully. Furthermore, Eirgrid continue to act unlawfully by entering property/land not belonging to them and without the owners permission, to carry out maintenance?

TT

I said that Eirgrid has no right to build the high voltage electricity line in question i.e Grid west. I never referred to lines built pre 2006.

I never mentioned maintenance of a line but yes I am also saying that Eirgrid has no right to enter onto lands to carry out Maintenance. If you think that they have then tell me under what statute they have this right.

Also, if a landowner wanted to he/she could legally prevent Eirgrid from
entering upon their land and insist, using land law if necessary, they remove
anything erected thereon?

You have asked two questions here.

The first part doesn't provide a context for the landowner legally preventing Eirgrid. If what you mean is the landowner preventing Eirgrid from entering onto the land to erect high voltage electricity lines then the answer is YES they can. If you suggest that Eirgrid can do this then show me the statute that says so.

If Eirgrid has erected a line without statutory authority (assuming that the landowner refused consent) then YES the landowner can have it removed.

oscarBravo

loremolis wrote: »

Interesting yes, but if you understood it you wouldn't ask those two questions.

You don't understand it so you choose to ignore it.

I'm not sure why you're getting all hand-wavy in response to some simple questions.

You've talked about a situation where a landowner can give the operator of the electricity grid three months' notice to remove a HV pylon from his or her land. Now, were this to be the case, it would have implications far beyond the rights of the individual landowner.

So the question is: is it in the national interest for an individual landowner to be able to cause a portion of the national electricity grid to be removed with (effectively) no notice?

If it's true (and the opinion of a single BL doesn't make it true; that's for a court to decide) that Eirgrid didn't have ESB's statutory powers transferred to it, wouldn't it be better on balance to correct that omission than to jeopardise the country's energy security?

These are simple questions. You can answer them, or you can call me ignorant and go off on another hand-waving spree. This is a discussion forum; if you're not prepared to discuss what you're posting, you're missing the point.

finisklin

Mod note: Its against Boards.ie rules to post full articles as its potential copyright.

yop

loremolis wrote: »

Why don't you read it, make up your own mind and discuss it then.

You jump in with no opinion and criticise mine?

I have read it and gave my opinion. You questioned OBs understanding of the situation but when I question yours then you get annoyed.
If you lack an ability for others to question your knowledge on the subject then this discussion wont last very long.

oscarBravo

finisklin wrote: »

"I don't know much about this technically..." [said Ruby Walsh]

Why do people who, by their own admission, don't understand the technical issues involved still feel comfortable telling us how the project should be implemented?

loremolis

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm not sure why you're getting all hand-wavy in response to some simple questions.

You've talked about a situation where a landowner can give the operator of the electricity grid three months' notice to remove a HV pylon from his or her land. Now, were this to be the case, it would have implications far beyond the rights of the individual landowner.

So the question is: is it in the national interest for an individual landowner
to be able to cause a portion of the national electricity grid to be removed
with (effectively) no notice?.

I don't know what hand-wavy is.

Who mentioned removing it. I said that there is a notice period in the UK, 3 months I think, that the landowner must give to the electricity company and the company then decides whether it is removed or whether they apply for to the Secretary of State for a necessary wayleave.

https://www.og.decc.gov.uk/EIP/pages/files/file23024.pdf
It works in the UK and their system is far bigger than ours.

If it's true (and the opinion of a single BL doesn't make it true; that's for a
court to decide) that Eirgrid didn't have ESB's statutory powers transferred to it, wouldn't it be better on balance to correct that omission than to jeopardise the country's energy security?

The opinion and Eirgrid's letter say it's true and I believe it's true because I've seen nothing that says otherwise.

Of course it would be better to have the omission corrected but the they haven't done so. They (Eirgrid and ESB) appear to have a mental block about the rights of landowners and choose to ignore the proper procedures when it comes to new lines.

These are simple questions. You can answer them, or you can call me ignorant and go off on another hand-waving spree. This is a discussion forum; if you're not prepared to discuss what you're posting, you're missing the point.

I didn't call you ignorant. I said that you ignored the information in the document in favour of questions that made no sense to me.

I raised the matter and I'm more than happy to discuss it.

loremolis

yop wrote: »

I have read it and gave my opinion. You questioned OBs understanding of the situation but when I question yours then you get annoyed.
If you lack an ability for others to question your knowledge on the subject then this discussion wont last very long.

You asked me questions in post #98 and I answered them in #99.

I'm happy to discuss.

madmaggie

Hi all, I live in County Carlow, right in the middle of a proposed Eirgrid route on their GridLink project. How did ye get on with submissions, compiling them, reasons for objections etc. People round here have until November 24th to send in submissions to Eirgrid. Pm's appreciated, thanks. PS Keep up the good fight!!

TopTec

Maggie. I can only suggest that you either contact your local protest group, (if there is one) or a good source for similar content is your on-line planning section of your CoCo website.

Previous plans, if you can track them down, will usually show submissions from objectors amongst the documents. Mayo scans in all documents on a planning app so I would assume CarlowCoCo does as well.

best of luck.

TT

mr jack

madmaggie wrote: »

Keep up the good fight!!

I think people are really missing the point about these projects, or at least look beyond their own nose.

National infrastructure is constantly needed to be upgraded. Everyone's happy to have the lights on in there house but when something like this comes near them they're up in arms. Nearly everywhere in Ireland is beautiful, especially areas in one's own locality. They need to go somewhere, stop with the NIMBYISM please.

I'll just add, I have 220kv (which isn't much smaller than 400kv)powerlines going beside me, they've been there since I was born over 30 years ago, no big deal

oscarBravo

mr jack wrote: »

I'll just add, I have 220kv (which isn't much smaller than 400kv)powerlines going beside me, they've been there since I was born over 30 years ago, no big deal

Similarly, I have a view out of my home office window of rolling green hills with mountains in the distance - and a 100kV line marching along the valley.

That 100kV line made it possible for Allergan to announce their recent expansion. Would my view be nicer without it? Sure. Do I wish it wasn't there? Hell, no.

Birdnuts

mr jack wrote: »

I think people are really missing the point about these projects, or at least look beyond their own nose.

Have you read Eirgrids reasoning for building this particular pylon??

Dudda

Birdnuts wrote: »

Have you read Eirgrids reasoning for building this particular pylon??

To transport electricity? It's hardly a climbing frame for the local kids.

TopTec

mr jack wrote: »

I'll just add, I have 220kv (which isn't much smaller than 400kv)powerlines going beside me, they've been there since I was born over 30 years ago, no big deal

oscarBravo wrote: »

Similarly, I have a view out of my home office window of rolling green hills with mountains in the distance - and a 100kV line marching along the valley.

Fair play to you guys for putting up with it. I personally wouldn't buy a house that was blighted in anyway by pylons/power lines.

Those with pylons planned near their houses from the Eirgrid project would, I am sure, be quite happy to have the power lines near them if they were placed underground. When you look at the costs being bandied around, not only for the project build but all the other extras like compensation, CPO's etc. it can't be that much more to bury the damn things.

TT

Birdnuts

Dudda wrote: »

To transport electricity? It's hardly a climbing frame for the local kids.

Its to service future private wind power projects - a power source that is unreliable, very expensive and provides little employment as I pointed out earlier in this thread citing the experience in Donegal. If the pylons were transporting power from a reliable source like gas and nuclear then an argument could be made

mr jack

Birdnuts wrote: »

Its to service future private wind power projects - a power source that is unreliable, very expensive and provides little employment as I pointed out earlier in this thread citing the experience in Donegal. If the pylons were transporting power from a reliable source like gas and nuclear then an argument could be made

Sounds like you have an agenda against wind Birdnuts but each to their own. I just popped onto the GridWest overview on Eirgrids website and they're not hiding behind anything, it's def. linked to renewables (not just wind) and job creation.

"By connecting the electricity generated by the region’s huge renewable energy resources, the Grid West project will facilitate significant job creation and investment. It will contribute to national recovery and growth while at the same time allowing the region to attract inward investment that requires a strong reliable source of power.
Ireland’s renewable energy target is to meet 40% of electricity consumption from renewable sources by 2020 – these include wind, wave and tidal energy. The existing transmission infrastructure in the region needs substantial investment to accommodate the west’s increasing levels of renewable generation."

mr jack

TopTec wrote: »

it can't be that much more to bury the damn things.

TT

Ireland's transmission system is AC. To go underground with a 400kV line forlong distances, you'd need to go DC, which doesn't fit in with our network. DCwas acceptable for connecting in with UK because connecting two differentnetworks.

I think cost is just one element but underground just isn't fit for purpose,certainly not for projects that are for strengthening the existing (AC)transmission network. They can go underground AC for short distances, but notlong distances.

People should do what a lot of people do who msg here, google it!! Denmark isa good example, undergrounding their low kV powerlines, under 100 or 150kV, but400kV are above ground.

oscarBravo

TopTec wrote: »

When you look at the costs being bandied around, not only for the project build but all the other extras like compensation, CPO's etc. it can't be that much more to bury the damn things.

Six to ten times the cost. Do you want that factored into your electricity bill?

Birdnuts

mr jack wrote: »

. I just popped onto the GridWest overview on Eirgrids website and they're not hiding behind anything, it's def. linked to renewables (not just wind) and job creation.

"By connecting the electricity generated by the region’s huge renewable energy resources, the Grid West project will facilitate significant job creation and investment. It will contribute to national recovery and growth while at the same time allowing the region to attract inward investment that requires a strong reliable source of power.
Ireland’s renewable energy target is to meet 40% of electricity consumption from renewable sources by 2020 – these include wind, wave and tidal energy. The existing transmission infrastructure in the region needs substantial investment to accommodate the west’s increasing levels of renewable generation."

Exactly - unsubstantiated waffle about jobs and wind power that has no basis in reality. Describing wind as a "reliable" power source should set people's alarm bells ringing in terms of this project. The phrase "White Elephant" springs to mind!!.

TheBully

Birdnuts wrote: »

Exactly - unsubstantiated waffle about jobs and wind power that has no basis in reality. Describing wind as a "reliable" power source should set people's alarm bells ringing in terms of this project. The phrase "White Elephant" springs to mind!!.

Of course it will bring jobs, The biggest windfarm in Europe is currently in construction in Bellacorrick, this line will bring more of this!
Also, down in Blessington wind may not be a "reliable" power source but I assure you along the atlantic cost in Erris it is. This is also for the future planned development of wave energy off the belmullet coast, which once again I assure you is a "reliable" power source

Birdnuts

TheBully wrote: »

Of course it will bring jobs, The biggest windfarm in Europe is currently in construction in Bellacorrick, this line will bring more of this!

??? - According to BnM who are building that wind farm, the maximum number of jobs post construction is in the single figures. This includes some vague promise of some sort of an interpretive centre. Check out the planning file they have lodged with Mayo CC. As I stated earlier in this thread Donegal has dozens of wind farms and is still one of the worst unemployment black spots in the country.

monument

Birdnuts wrote: »

As I stated earlier in this thread Donegal has dozens of wind farms and is still one of the worst unemployment black spots in the country.

What's your point here?

On the face of it, it seems you're saying that the claim any development brings jobs is not valid unless those jobs are enough to wipe out a place's unemployment blackspot status.

The Coco Cola plant in Ballina does not change the fact that the town is a unemployment blackspot... But I don't recall many saying no to those jobs just because the jobs were not enough.

Next you're likely to say Coco Cola will employ more than renewable engery in Mayo... So, please, how many construction and full time jobs are worth counting these days?

But where Eirgrid says "Grid West project will facilitate significant job creation and investment" -- it's not talking about direct jobs, but jobs from businesses that demand a better power network than Ireland currently has.

Birdnuts wrote: »

Exactly - unsubstantiated waffle about jobs and wind power that has no basis in reality. Describing wind as a "reliable" power source should set people's alarm bells ringing in terms of this project. The phrase "White Elephant" springs to mind!!.

Wind is more reliable in the long term as it'll be around far, far longer than cheap oil and gas.

Birdnuts

monument wrote: »

What's your point here?

On the face of it, it seems you're saying that the claim any development brings jobs is not valid unless those jobs are enough to wipe out a place's unemployment blackspot status.

The Coco Cola plant in Ballina does not change the fact that the town is a unemployment blackspot... But I don't recall many saying no to those jobs just because the jobs were not enough.

Next you're likely to say Coco Cola will employ more than renewable engery in Mayo... So, please, how many construction and full time jobs are worth counting these days?

But where Eirgrid says "Grid West project will facilitate significant job creation and investment" -- it's not talking about direct jobs, but jobs from businesses that demand a better power network than Ireland currently has.



Wind is more reliable in the long term as it'll be around far, far longer than cheap oil and gas.

Wind isn't a reliable power source and oil/gas will be around for a long time yet. The US has recently become self sufficient in gas and will soon be in oil so the myth that we are running out is just that - a myth put out by the wind industry and their fellow travellers. Wind power has to be backed up by conventional fuels when the wind is too light/strong and drives up the price of electricity for business and domestic users. Germany has to pay billions of euros in subsidies to its business sector every year to compensate them for rising power prices on the back of accommodating wind on the grid. Ireland cannot afford such largesses, let alone attract energy intensive industry on the back of it