Gridwest project.

Oldtree

And just generally speaking to bolster my point about landscape:

Overhead and underground electricity lines

Only where it is not possible to find a route for overhead lines are high voltage (HV) underground cables used worldwide. Such situations arise, for
example, when the area that has to be traversed consists of one or more
of the following:

■ A built-up urban area where there is no space for support structures;
■ An area with a multiplicity of existing overhead power lines;
■ A relatively wide expanse of deep water;
■ An area of unique natural beauty.

When considering a transmission project in isolation however, neither a technical nor an economic case can be made for installing underground cable, even at 110 kV, unless confronted with a built up area, a vast expanse of water or an area where there is a multiplicity of overhead lines.

the above is taken from Eirgrid's Grid25 Pg44 here

http://www.eirgrid.com/media/Grid%2025.pdf

Do you notice anything missing in the latter part of that statement from Eirgrid? It would appear that no matter what, Eirgrid has no regard for and will not put in an underground cable, even at 110 kV, in "An area of unique natural beauty." QED

TopTec

I have a question. There was discussion this week in one of the regional papers concerning the possibility of funding for the various protest groups to obtain expert advice regarding their concerns. This would balance the spending power of Eirgrid when it comes to planning appeals.

My questions is where does Eirgrid obtain the money to prepare their case? Is it from public funds, private or profit from the business?

Oh, and.......

monument wrote: »

If you're going to stoop to childish name calling at least get it right -- the phrase you were looking for was "you're deluded" or "you are deluded".

What is the saying about throwing stones and glass houses?

monument wrote: »

Again: E.on with 50% of their power from coal and 30% have a massive interist in keeping renewables as a low part of the power mix.

Your seem to be unable to deal with their conflict if interist here.

Cheap retail prices are good for consumers and businesses.

First you make out wind unless at jobs because it does not provide enough jobs on its own to change an employment black spot to a booming area.

Now you're making out wind has no significantly effect because other things are causing emissions to rise.

Next you'll want wind to bring world peace!

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

TT

yop

TopTec wrote: »

I have a question. There was discussion this week in one of the regional papers concerning the possibility of funding for the various protest groups to obtain expert advice regarding their concerns. This would balance the spending power of Eirgrid when it comes to planning appeals.

My questions is where does Eirgrid obtain the money to prepare their case? Is it from public funds, private or profit from the business?

Oh, and.......



What is the saying about throwing stones and glass houses?



:rolleyes::rolleyes:

TT

Mod Note: TT behave, correcting someones grammar isn't very clever. No more warnings.

Birdnuts

monument wrote: »

Cheap retail prices are good for consumers and businesses.

That why I posted the link in the previous post which shows wind power has caused the retail cost of power to spiral in places like Germany and Denmark.

loremolis

TopTec wrote: »

I have a question. There was discussion this week in one of the regional papers concerning the possibility of funding for the various protest groups to obtain expert advice regarding their concerns. This would balance the spending power of Eirgrid when it comes to planning appeals.

My questions is where does Eirgrid obtain the money to prepare their case? Is it from public funds, private or profit from the business?

Make no mistake, Eirgrid's funding for preparing their case comes solely and entirely from electricity consumers.

They can spend whatever they wish on Barristers, solicitors and experts without having to account to anyone.

It's all moot anyway, Eirgrid has no right to enter onto privately owned land to erect their lines.

If someone can tell me how to post a document here I'll prove it.

Chisler2

See Letters Page in Friday's Irish Times. The folks on the Eastern seaboard have gone public on their dissatisfaction with the so-called "consultation" on the devastation the windpower outfits will cause to their environment.

monument

Birdnuts wrote: »

That why I posted the link in the previous post which shows wind power has caused the retail cost of power to spiral in places like Germany and Denmark.

Link did not work -- can you post it again? Thanks.

As I said in my previous reply, it's likely down to renewable subsidies rather than the retail prices. Two distinctive things. Paying for those subsidies by directly taxing users is a choice our governments have made.

TopTec wrote: »

What is the saying about throwing stones and glass houses?

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

TT

Was walking around and ended up posting that before meaning to, but point taken.

Birdnuts

monument wrote: »

Link did not work -- can you post it again? Thanks.

n.

http://theenergycollective.com/lindsay-wilson/279126/average-electricity-prices-around-world-kwh

Notable that the EU countries with the highest wind penetration like Germany,Denmark and Spain are the most expensive. By contrast France with its mainly Nuclear grid is less than half the price of Denmark.

Birdnuts

loremolis wrote: »

Make no mistake, Eirgrid's funding for preparing their case comes solely and entirely from electricity consumers.

.

Bad and all that is - a lot worse is coming down the line for Irish power users if Eirgrid get their way with these massively expensive, wind power inspired, pylon projects up and down the country:(

oscarBravo

Oldtree wrote: »

What exactly in north west mayo is going to need to import and use a vast amount of power that the proposed 400kv line is capable of?

You're missing the point. I'll explain it again.

The line is being built for the primary purpose of transmitting wind power from Mayo. That doesn't mean that there's anything whatsoever in the line's design that makes it unsuitable for transmitting power into Mayo.

If a business were to look into setting up in Mayo - let's say for argument's sake they wanted to build a data centre - one of their questions is going to be about the capacity and stability of the grid. The presence of a 400kV line - even if its primary purpose is to transmit locally-generated power to the grid - goes a long way towards reassuring such a business.

Before you crank your straw man machine to full capacity, I'm not claiming that building a transmission line will instantly cause industry to spring up in the region. I'm pointing out that we've been whining constantly for decades about the lack of investment in infrastructure in this part of the country, and now - predictably - we're whining about getting that infrastructure.

Therefore the reliability issue, combined with the variability of the wind generated electricity and the lack of industry needing that amount of power in north west mayo, means to me that Eirgrid's proposal of insisting on a 400kv above ground line is spurious to say the least. It is not needed.

Well, I guess now that you've told them that, they'll change their mind. After all, what would they know about what their own needs are? Clearly their major mistake was not soliciting the advice of some randomer on the Internet in the first place.

What they want is to ensure is that they have the cheapest route to export as much renewable power to the UK as possible and you it appears advocate that.

Yeah, because exporting is the stupidest thing in the world to do. Who ever heard of an economy that operated on the basis of exports?

Chisler2

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're missing the point. I'll explain it again.

The line is being built for the primary purpose of transmitting wind power from Mayo. That doesn't mean that there's anything whatsoever in the line's design that makes it unsuitable for transmitting power into Mayo.

If a business were to look into setting up in Mayo - let's say for argument's sake they wanted to build a data centre - one of their questions is going to be about the capacity and stability of the grid. The presence of a 400kV line - even if its primary purpose is to transmit locally-generated power to the grid - goes a long way towards reassuring such a business.

Before you crank your straw man machine to full capacity, I'm not claiming that building a transmission line will instantly cause industry to spring up in the region. I'm pointing out that we've been whining constantly for decades about the lack of investment in infrastructure in this part of the country, and now - predictably - we're whining about getting that infrastructure. Well, I guess now that you've told them that, they'll change their mind. After all, what would they know about what their own needs are? Clearly their major mistake was not soliciting the advice of some randomer on the Internet in the first place. Yeah, because exporting is the stupidest thing in the world to do. Who ever heard of an economy that operated on the basis of exports?

Discussions of this type are considerably enhanced if invective and sarcasm is avoided!

It's a matter of weighing up the advantages of "exporting" (look at the literature; the expected benefits rarely materialise!) surplus power obtained from a variable source requiring expensive installation (with, incidentally, non-renewable carbon-generating technology and high transport-costs) against all that will be lost in the process.

What is lost in the process? Indigenous sustainable employment and production of skilled local workforces is one. Income from tourism is another.

Just as a matter of interest...........what type of "business" would you envisage would wish to set up in Mayo, requiring vast amounts of additional power?

oscarBravo

Chisler2 wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest...........what type of "business" would you envisage would wish to set up in Mayo, requiring vast amounts of additional power?

Questions like this bewilder me.

Are you asking because you genuinely can't contemplate the idea that a business with a requirement for a stable electricity supply would ever want to operate here?

Are you asking because you would be opposed to the idea of such a business setting up here?

Are you asking because you are fatalistic about the prospect of us ever being able to attract industry, so we should be content to eke out whatever meagre livelihoods we can from farming and tourism?

I just don't get the point of the question. It's like asking me what sort of business would set up in Mayo that would require a decent road, or what sort of industry could possibly want decent telecommunications infrastructure.

The point is that if a business that did require stable grid infrastructure were to look at Mayo at present, it wouldn't find it an attractive location, in the same way that businesses that have to transport goods by truck have been complaining for years about the state of the roads.

monument

Birdnuts wrote: »

http://theenergycollective.com/lindsay-wilson/279126/average-electricity-prices-around-world-kwh

Notable that the EU countries with the highest wind penetration like Germany,Denmark and Spain are the most expensive. By contrast France with its mainly Nuclear grid is less than half the price of Denmark.

Notable, the link does not say there's any link between wind power and overall high price.

Can you prove there is a link or is this just more guess work by you?

Birdnuts

monument wrote: »

Notable, the link does not say there's any link between wind power and overall high price.

Can you prove there is a link or is this just more guess work by you?

Guess work?? - I'm presenting facts here, facts which you don't like cos they don't fit your view of wind power.

http://theenergycollective.com/maxluke/274041/trash-trees-and-taxes

monument

Birdnuts wrote: »

Guess work?? - I'm presenting facts here, facts which you don't like cos they don't fit your view of wind power.

http://theenergycollective.com/maxluke/274041/trash-trees-and-taxes

You're providing links which don't really back up what your saying. Your last link did not make the point you wanted so here you are with another.

This new link points to what I've been saying: Retail prices and taxes on bills are two different things - the German government has made a policy point of putting the cost for the switch to renewables on enegry bills. It could have been done by general taxation. It's a tax regardless, not the retail price.

Their policy is there because they want cleaner engery and less dependent on outside sources. You on the other hand have advocated the most dirty and destructive sources -- so you're hardly going to like clean enegry.

Decommissioning of their nuclear plants is one of I'm sure many factors which has make the switch less apparent.

Birdnuts

monument wrote: »

You're providing links which don't really back up what your saying. Your last link did not make the point you wanted so here you are with another.

This new link points to what I've been saying: Retail prices and taxes on bills are two different things - the German government has made a policy point of putting the cost for the switch to renewables on enegry bills. It could have been done by general taxation. It's a tax regardless, not the retail price.

Their policy is there because they want cleaner engery and less dependent on outside sources. You on the other hand have advocated the most dirty and destructive sources -- so you're hardly going to like clean enegry.

Decommissioning of their nuclear plants is one of I'm sure many factors which has make the switch less apparent.

My links prove exactly the points I'm making - its your own ego that your trying to salvage here. You clearly don't understand that the bill for wind energy on a grid has to be paid for by someone, whether it is by energy users or taxpayers it hits ordinary citizens and business hard in the pocket.

Wind has failed to lower CO2 emmisions in Germany and the EU in general to any significant extent and thats not even taking into accountant the emmissions from the manufacture,installation and operation of turbines. In Ireland many turbines have been shoved into sensitive blanket bog areas - damaging a proven natural carbon store with the installation of roads, massive concrete bases, substations, pylons etc. And the there's the horrific pollution caused by the extraction of the rare earth metals used in turbines manufacture. The powerfull and politically well connected wind power industry has succesfully fooled alot of people worldwide about their environmental credentals but the reality is more greenwash then green energy:(


I can't control the fact that you appear to be operating under the false notion that you know more about these issues then the likes of the major power companies, industry experts, Der spiegel, the Economist etc. but people reading the links I have posted can make up their own mind as to the merits of my arguement.

Oldtree

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're missing the point. I'll explain it again.?

Thank you.

The line is being built for the primary purpose of transmitting wind power from Mayo. That doesn't mean that there's anything whatsoever in the line's design that makes it unsuitable for transmitting power into Mayo.?

You miss my point, again, The rationale for building a 400kv line is for reliability ie continuous power flow and you do not get that with wind power.

If a business were to look into setting up in Mayo - let's say for argument's sake they wanted to build a data centre - one of their questions is going to be about the capacity and stability of the grid. The presence of a 400kV line - even if its primary purpose is to transmit locally-generated power to the grid - goes a long way towards reassuring such a business.

Nonsense, no data centre is going to mayo I cant even get broad band on my landline! No large business in their right minds would migrate to mayo until all the necessary infrastructure was in place esp fiber optic cables. would they have to be buried I wonder :rolleyes:

Before you crank your straw man machine to full capacity, I'm not claiming that building a transmission line will instantly cause industry to spring up in the region. I'm pointing out that we've been whining constantly for decades about the lack of investment in infrastructure in this part of the country, and now - predictably - we're whining about getting that infrastructure.

Now that they are going way over the top to supply the kind of infrastructure that is suitable to their ends and detracts from one of mayo's existing main industries! Big thank you to them for serving their own ends at last.

Well, I guess now that you've told them that, they'll change their mind. After all, what would they know about what their own needs are? Clearly their major mistake was not soliciting the advice of some randomer on the Internet in the first place.

Now Now stomping that little foot will get you nowhere. Clearly There is also going to be a serious problem for eirgrid locally, so it will be very interesting to see what sort of value an bord pleanala place on the landscape. I noticed you avoided retorting about Eirgrids complete disregard for the landscape in their Grid 25 document and that is going to come back and haunt them!

Yeah, because exporting is the stupidest thing in the world to do. Who ever heard of an economy that operated on the basis of export

This natural resource is in Mayo, and while I understand the importance for export of this resource, We can I'm sure agree, that Mayo needs something more than a blot on the landscape out of this arrangement. Suddenly we are the centre of attention after being ignored for decades. Mayo deserves more respect than it is currently getting and a bit of road repairs doesn't cut it.

monument

Oldtree wrote: »

Nonsense, no data centre is going to mayo I cant even get broad band on my landline! No large business in their right minds would migrate to mayo until all the necessary infrastructure was in place esp fiber optic cables. would they have to be buried I wonder :rolleyes:

So, you're fully aware of the fiber networks in Mayo?

runawaybishop

Oldtree wrote: »

No large business in their right minds would migrate to mayo until all the necessary infrastructure was in place esp fiber optic cables. would they have to be buried I wonder :rolleyes:

There's a large IT based business in Ballina since the turn of the century, they are the reason Ballina had decent broadband installed.

Why are you equating fibre to power cables? Is that meant to bolster your argument, cos it doesn't.

yop

Ballinrobe are getting their fibre rolled out, Cbar has fibre, so the IT infrastructure is there where its counts towards creating jobs if they were to come down here.

runawaybishop

yop wrote: »

Ballinrobe are getting their fibre rolled out, Cbar has fibre, so the IT infrastructure is there where its counts towards creating jobs if they were to come down here.

Ballina too! Mayo has 4 cabinets, 3 of which were enabled. We had more fibre exchanges enabled at launch than anywhere else.

Avns1s

runawaybishop wrote: »

Ballina too! Mayo has 4 cabinets, 3 of which were enabled. We had more fibre exchanges enabled at launch than anywhere else.

Don't forget the MANs (Metropolitan Area Networks) of which Mayo has 6. Belmullet, Ballina, Claremorris, Ballinrobe, Kiltimagh, Knock Airport.

In fairness, I would say Mayo is becoming as well positioned as any county in terms of Infrastructure.

The Electricity Supply has been an issue that will be helped by the completion of the Gridwest project. This together with the fact that several Mayo towns have access to Natural Gas as a result of the Corrib project and that Mayo has another equally controversial piece of infrastructure in it's day, Knock Airport, means that all the county is really going to be lacking on, is the Road Network. We need an upgrade of the N5 and to be clear, I mean the upgrading of the section from the eastside of the Ballaghaderreen bypass which is currently underway, to Scramogue on the east side of Strokestown and NOT the upgrade of the Westport to Bohola Road.

Birdnuts

Avns1s wrote: »

The Electricity Supply has been an issue that will be helped by the completion of the Gridwest project. .

Only if is connected to a reliable energy supply of which unfortunatly there are no current plans to do so. Someone mentioned that there is already a major IT company based in Ballina. The ESB has done alot of work over the past 20 years upgrading the network in Mayo on the existing grid. Belmullet a town I'm familiar with has had a number of energy intensive engineering and call centre businesses over the years. I'm not aware of any of them citing the Electricity supply as being an issue for them. If someone would like to post a link for me outlining any examples of bussiness that are eitheir constrained by the current electricity supply or will not come to Mayo because of it I would be genuinly appreciative. If power generation is an issue then I would like to see a gas fired power station constructed at Bellacorick which should have direct and first call on the Corrib gas.

Oldtree

monument wrote: »

So, you're fully aware of the fiber networks in Mayo?

I'm fully aware of the coverage that exists here at the moment, currently not attracting business to this part of the island.

Oldtree

runawaybishop wrote: »

There's a large IT based business in Ballina since the turn of the century, they are the reason Ballina had decent broadband installed.

Why are you equating fibre to power cables? Is that meant to bolster your argument, cos it doesn't.

I mention it as part of the infrastructure that a Data Centre would need, as proposed by Oscar.

Oldtree

yop wrote: »

Ballinrobe are getting their fibre rolled out, Cbar has fibre, so the IT infrastructure is there where its counts towards creating jobs if they were to come down here.

I think that's great yop, I notice that it is planned to move this out into rural areas in the next 2 years and hope to benefit from it, but I cannot see a Data Centre being set up in Ballinrobe, much as I would like to see it done and welcome it for our 1,000 or so unemployed here.

runawaybishop

Oldtree wrote: »

I'm fully aware of the coverage that exists here at the moment, currently not attracting business to this part of the island.

This is untrue, the fibre upgrade has allowed many people to work from home on projects that require good speeds. The ability to work from home is a factor for many IT businesses.

sudzs

Birdnuts wrote: »

Only if is connected to a reliable energy supply of which unfortunatly there are no current plans to do so. Someone mentioned that there is already a major IT company based in Ballina. The ESB has done alot of work over the past 20 years upgrading the network in Mayo on the existing grid. Belmullet a town I'm familiar with has had a number of energy intensive engineering and call centre businesses over the years. I'm not aware of any of them citing the Electricity supply as being an issue for them. If someone would like to post a link for me outlining any examples of bussiness that are eitheir constrained by the current electricity supply or will not come to Mayo because of it I would be genuinly appreciative. If power generation is an issue then I would like to see a gas fired power station constructed at Bellacorick which should have direct and first call on the Corrib gas.

What about the biomass plant planned for Killala? Any word of that going ahead? Maybe the grid project is something to do with that??

Oldtree

runawaybishop wrote: »

This is untrue, the fibre upgrade has allowed many people to work from home on projects that require good speeds. The ability to work from home is a factor for many IT businesses.

In the context of this thread we are talking about data centres, pl see Oscars above comment.

Avns1s

Oldtree wrote: »

I think that's great yop, I notice that it is planned to move this out into rural areas in the next 2 years and hope to benefit from it, but I cannot see a Data Centre being set up in Ballinrobe, much as I would like to see it done and welcome it for our 1,000 or so unemployed here.

You may be right and perhaps there may not be a data centre in Ballinrobe but one there's one thing for sure, without the necessary infrastructure, there won't be one.

Remember, the fibre infrastructure helps many medium sized businesses that those on the outside may not even consider would have a bandwidth requirement. I can even think of a few in Ballinrobe that would fit this category.

Often the provision of this infrastructure can sustain the existing jobs which can be equally good as creating new one, particularly as a starting position.