Forum 'redirection' is or is not backseat modding?

MadsL

El Guapo! wrote: »

Sorry, I can't quote your post properly as I'm on the phone so it's a bit difficult....

I do get what you're saying but tbh, I don't see it as a big issue. And I don't see directing users to another forum as a breach of the charter, unless it's in a smart arse way and it falls under 'being a dick'. Most of the time it's a helpful redirection.

The issue is redirecting a seasoned user, it is pretty obvious they are not a novice and comments like "Dublin Forum OP" are a rebuke not help.

If any user feels something is out of line, then the report post function is the way to go about it.

you would think people would just report out of place threads, but (myself included) the urge to be smarmy takes over.

And I wouldn't stop redirecting posters if I was you. After all, this is supposed to be a community, and a good community helps each other out. Everyone needs a little direction from tine to time.

Polite help is different, and not the problem I'm raising.

I've often wanted to start a thread or ask a question and not had a clue where to post it. If someone is clearly lost, then it's perfectly reasonable to give them a friendly nudge in the right direction.

Yeah, it's more the kick up the arse because someone has a gripe with Dublin threads or TV threads or whatever...

Tombi!

I'm with Guapo! on this... I don't even understand the argument really.
But surely the fact we have this: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056940993
in AH means we could have other "Dublin" like things? Along with anything from any other county in Ireland if it's that much of a big deal?

Penn

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And in this post, we have a perfect illustration of attacking the poster rather than the post.

It doesn't matter a damn if a person making a point in the Feedback forum is a PITA: the point should be considered on its merits.

I disagree. I don't think Whoops' point was to attack MadsL, but to show that if we had a zero tolerance policy, all posts like that would have to be actioned, rather than what actually happened where the mod used their own discretion to decide MadsL didn't mean any harm by it, and no action was necessary. And that most people are guilty of a little bit of backseat modding every now and again.

If Whoops wanted, she probably could have actioned either of those posts as they technically breach the rules (if we were taking a zero tolerance approach). Instead, mod discretion was used to not give a mod action which would have been harsh for such a minor offence.

That's why zero tolerance or being too exact with a lot of rules is a bad thing. It shackles the mods' hands and results in too many posters being actioned for little-to-nothing.

El Guapo!

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I'm with Guapo! on this... I don't even understand the argument really.
But surely the fact we have this: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056940993
in AH means we could have other "Dublin" like things? Along with anything from any other county in Ireland if it's that much of a big deal?

I think there's a clear distinction between what is and isn't allowed.
Grafton St is a national landmark and is famous around the world. News about Grafton St affects the whole country. The same would go for the cliffs of Moher, for example. If news came out tomorrow that the cliffs were being turned into giant billboards, AH would be a good place to talk about it as it's a national issue.

On the other side of the coin, for example, a thread about roadworks on Patrick St belongs in the Limerick forum. Or a thread on the best pub in Dublin belongs in the Dublin forum etc etc.
It all depends on the gravity of the story and whether it's worthy of reaching a larger audience or if it's better suited to locals.

MadsL

Penn wrote: »

I disagree. I don't think Whoops' point was to attack MadsL, but to show that if we had a zero tolerance policy, all posts like that would have to be actioned, rather than what actually happened where the mod used their own discretion to decide MadsL didn't mean any harm by it, and no action was necessary. And that most people are guilty of a little bit of backseat modding every now and again.

If Whoops wanted, she probably could have actioned either of those posts as they technically breach the rules (if we were taking a zero tolerance approach). Instead, mod discretion was used to not give a mod action which would have been harsh for such a minor offence.

That's why zero tolerance or being too exact with a lot of rules is a bad thing. It shackles the mods' hands and results in too many posters being actioned for little-to-nothing.

I actually think my post that Whoops pointed out was actionable, it was meant to be funny, but reading it back it is really snide.

The reason this thread is getting confusing is because there are two issues.

1. The Regional or National importance debate (or AH thread or not AH thread more accurately)

2. Reactions to it.

Helpfulness should not be actioned, but I do think that some 'helpfulness' is delivered with a bit of a kick to the bollocks.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

MadsL

Phoenix wrote: »

Deja vu here.........

I've heard that before...

Femme_Fatale

Dublin is the capital city - therefore some of the goings on in it are of national interest. I think it's very disingenuous to say the ESB building demolition only belongs on the Dublin forum. It is of national interest - the demolition of the Georgian buildings for the 60s ESB building was actually of international interest.

Personally I don't even see that much of a problem with questions about Dublin pubs, restaurants, shops, seeing as so many people on After Hours live or have lived in Dublin, or are even familiar with the city just via visiting it.

It's the "Anyone getting a strange smell in Donnycarney?" (or any area throughout Ireland) ones are ****ing annoying and lazy though.

MadsL

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Dublin is the capital city - therefore some of the goings on in it are of national interest. I think it's very disingenuous to say the ESB building demolition only belongs on the Dublin forum. It is of national interest - the demolition of the Georgian buildings for the 60s ESB building was actually of international interest.

Personally I don't even see that much of a problem with questions about Dublin pubs, restaurants, shops, seeing as so many people on After Hours live or have lived in Dublin, or are even familiar with the city just via visiting it.

It's the "Anyone getting a strange smell in Donnycarney?" (or any area throughout Ireland) ones are ****ing annoying and lazy though.

How do you feel about posters who post "Donnycarney forum tbh"?

Femme_Fatale

MadsL wrote: »

How do you feel about posters who post "Donnycarney forum tbh"?

Grand. They make a valid point. Or Ballincollig forum, Tralee forum, Moyross forum.

MadsL

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Grand. They make a valid point. Or Ballincollig forum, Tralee forum, Moyross forum.

But if they post "Dublin forum tbh" on a obviously national interest thread, not so much?

Femme_Fatale

MadsL wrote: »

But if they post "Dublin forum tbh" on a obviously national interest thread, not so much?

Yes. As I already said.

Tombi!

But then it gets down to "what decides what's a national issue?"
I get that it's clearly a case by case basis, as El Guapo pointed out and I'm fine with it.

But it just seems like anytime an issue in any of the counties is posted it'll need a mod note "this is a national issue please don't troll" in it or something.

MadsL

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

But then it gets down to "what decides what's a national issue?"

Gonna go out on a limb and suggest the mods do, as they do already.

I get that it's clearly a case by case basis, as El Guapo pointed out and I'm fine with it.

But it just seems like anytime an issue in any of the counties is posted it'll need a mod note "this is a national issue please don't troll" in it or something.

My point is about complaining about threads, which is basically backseat modding.

Perhaps we need a "no whining" clause in the charter instead

GreeBo

MadsL wrote: »

Gonna go out on a limb and suggest the mods do, as they do already.



My point is about complaining about threads, which is basically backseat modding.

Perhaps we need a "no whining" clause in the charter instead

I think a few people are missing your point.
You have an issue with "x forum tbh" not being treated as back seat modding....right?

I'd agree. If you think a post is in the wrong forum, report it. 90% of the time, Posting "Dublin tbh" is being a dick imo, and against the rules.

MadsL

GreeBo wrote: »

I think a few people are missing your point.
You have an issue with "x forum tbh" not being treated as back seat modding....right?

I'd agree. If you think a post is in the wrong forum, report it. 90% of the time, Posting "Dublin tbh" is being a dick imo, and against the rules.

Nail. Head.

Overheal

hullaballoo wrote: »

If ever there was a thread made for cat pics.

Don't tempt me.

LoLth

Overheal wrote: »

Don't tempt me.

please. be tempted. (shines banhammer)

LoLth

@OP : The posts Whoops' raises are actually quite relevant.

You complain about people being dicks with the "dublin forum tbh" but in fact, you only developed an issue with it when it was done to you. you were, by your own admission, snide in making posts of that nature before. Thats a bit like a long-term low-level troll complaining because someone keeps posting off topic on a thread he started. The initial reaction is to think "sauce for the goose..." . It also makes your sense of indignation in the original post slightly humorous. (sorry, but it had to be said)

Having said that, your point is a good one and it highlights why we have rules on backseat modding in the first place. Its not so users dont annoy the mods, its so users dont browbeat other users by pretending to be in a position of authority when they arent. Quoting of rules and directions on how to behave were often used by some posters to establish their "seniority" and by proxy that their opinion held more weight in that forum when in truth, only the mods opinion holds more weight and even that is only in matters relating to the forum charter / boards policy .

So, helpful or not, forum redirect *should* be left up to the mods to do. report the post, let the mods take care of it.

However, if we were to ban everyone that tried to be helpful, we'd have unhappy people. Sometimes its hard to tell the difference so, mods are expected to make their own call on where the line is drawn between deliberate backseat modding / deliberate dickishness / failed helpfulness.

for what its worth (and its not much because I dont mod AH) a topic on a particular building that is not a national icon / example of architecture / heritage site should be in a regional forum. Its not nationally significant - unless the ESB are hiking their charges to fund the refurb etc. its a judgement call and its one the mods should make. Was the user being a dick when they told you to take it to a regional forum ? possibly. or they were, correctly , pointing out that dublin != national , or, they have seen you post the same to someone else and thought, fair's fair.

Its going to have to be a forum by forum decision on whether redirection is backseat modding / being a dick and its going to have to be case by case. Its not something that we can black and white say is or is not wrong in every instance.

Only thing I can suggest is that, in future, you think of it as backseat modding and instead try to be helpful to the mods themselves and report a post with suggestion of where it should be.

LoLth

post deleted because it consisted of a personal attack against another poster citing examples of bias from past posts.

If you cant be constructive and you cant post on topic, then dont post.

If you think this is an opportunity to settle some score with an AH poster or Mod just because its not an AH thread, DONT.

This is the one and only warning.

John_Rambo

LoLth wrote: »

post deleted because it consisted of a personal attack against another poster citing examples of bias from past posts.

If you cant be constructive and you cant post on topic, then dont post.

If you think this is an opportunity to settle some score with an AH poster or Mod just because its not an AH thread, DONT.

This is the one and only warning.

Ok, fair enough. I didn't mean to personally attack anyone, I meant to show an example of attitudes out there when it comes to certain issues backed up with examples. I felt it pertained to the issue in hand. Warning taken on board, sorry for wasting your time LoLth.

MugMugs

MadsL wrote: »

So yes, my view, having been on the receiving end recently has changed. Is there a problem with that?

I'm not the only one posting that this behaviour is annoying am I?

Is there a problem with it? Yes, frankly, there is.

You've done just what you've complained about yet you're still here arguing your case. I don't understand why frankly.

I've come up with a number of analogies to this but they're probably too extreme for me to post. I just don't understand how you can have such a serious change of heart once it's done to you especially considering the post quoted by Whoops and the manner in which you acted. It beggars belief frankly.

MadsL wrote: »

Should I have been infracted for the post that whoopsadaisy pointed out?

If yes, I rest my case.

You should have been booted out on your ass for a few days but not for the redirection but for the purely snide and petty way in which you approached the scenario.

Rest away.

Yeah, maybe people should report posts and say nothing but I am guilty of redirecting myself and purely to be helpful. I don't see an issue with it as long as it's helpful and relevant. Throw your manner of dealing with it into the mix though and it becomes a different kettle of fish.

Should this thread be actionable in your view?

Should the respondent be infracted / banned?

If I had posted that response to the OP and received an action I'd have to consider my future on this site.

MadsL wrote: »

So far in this thread I've been accused of being a hypocrite, a dick, a bore, a saboteur, being the cause of users closing accounts, and been baited by a mod. :pac:

I "accused you" of no such thing merely highlighted the fact.

The manner in which you've conducted your posts on this thread and others in this forum may be the reason you feel you've been called any of the above.

MadsL

LoLth wrote: »

@OP : The posts Whoops' raises are actually quite relevant.

You complain about people being dicks with the "dublin forum tbh" but in fact, you only developed an issue with it when it was done to you. you were, by your own admission, snide in making posts of that nature before. Thats a bit like a long-term low-level troll complaining because someone keeps posting off topic on a thread he started. The initial reaction is to think "sauce for the goose..." . It also makes your sense of indignation in the original post slightly humorous. (sorry, but it had to be said)

No issue with you pointing this out, I'm the first to admit that I am being hypocritical.

Having said that, your point is a good one and it highlights why we have rules on backseat modding in the first place. Its not so users dont annoy the mods, its so users dont browbeat other users by pretending to be in a position of authority when they arent. Quoting of rules and directions on how to behave were often used by some posters to establish their "seniority" and by proxy that their opinion held more weight in that forum when in truth, only the mods opinion holds more weight and even that is only in matters relating to the forum charter / boards policy .

Spot on.

So, helpful or not, forum redirect *should* be left up to the mods to do. report the post, let the mods take care of it.

However, if we were to ban everyone that tried to be helpful, we'd have unhappy people. Sometimes its hard to tell the difference so, mods are expected to make their own call on where the line is drawn between deliberate backseat modding / deliberate dickishness / failed helpfulness.

The length of time the OP has been on boards would really indicate if they need "redirection" or if it is pure dickery I'd suggest.

for what its worth (and its not much because I dont mod AH) a topic on a particular building that is not a national icon / example of architecture / heritage site should be in a regional forum. Its not nationally significant - unless the ESB are hiking their charges to fund the refurb etc. its a judgement call and its one the mods should make. Was the user being a dick when they told you to take it to a regional forum ? possibly. or they were, correctly , pointing out that dublin != national , or, they have seen you post the same to someone else and thought, fair's fair.

Its going to have to be a forum by forum decision on whether redirection is backseat modding / being a dick and its going to have to be case by case. Its not something that we can black and white say is or is not wrong in every instance.

Only thing I can suggest is that, in future, you think of it as backseat modding and instead try to be helpful to the mods themselves and report a post with suggestion of where it should be.

In that specific thread, the reason I didn't report the two "redirectors" was because I have never seen this being actioned. Hence this query.

Excellent post by the way, thank you for your response.

MadsL

MugMugs wrote: »

Is there a problem with it? Yes, frankly, there is.

You've done just what you've complained about yet you're still here arguing your case. I don't understand why frankly.

I imagine if you got a speeding ticket you would still argue speeding was wrong. I was wrong to post what I did - but I still believe redirection is backseat modding. Is that hard to follow?

I've come up with a number of analogies to this but they're probably too extreme for me to post. I just don't understand how you can have such a serious change of heart once it's done to you especially considering the post quoted by Whoops and the manner in which you acted. It beggars belief frankly.

I'm not self-aware enough to reconsider my posting style. That's a bit insulting.

You should have been booted out on your ass for a few days but not for the redirection but for the purely snide and petty way in which you approached the scenario.

I agree, a ban wouldn't have been unwarranted. My only defence is that it was a lame attempt at humour. Perhaps I'd had a couple of beers at the time.

Rest away.

This is exactly my point. You think my post was actionable enough to warrant a ban, therefore redirections done in a snide or annoying way (rather than helpful way) are backseat modding/being a dick.

Yeah, maybe people should report posts and say nothing but I am guilty of redirecting myself and purely to be helpful. I don't see an issue with it as long as it's helpful and relevant.

Nowhere am I arguing that helpful redirection is against the charter. There is a big difference between that and "I think you are lost OP :rolleyes: Try PI!"

Throw your manner of dealing with it into the mix though and it becomes a different kettle of fish.

My point exactly. However, there is no "my manner" I have redirected helpfully on many more occasions.

Should this thread be actionable in your view?

Should the respondent be infracted / banned?

There is a clear difference between the reason for posting. Especially since the Op there said "Not sure if this is the right place for it".

If I had posted that response to the OP and received an action I'd have to consider my future on this site.

That's why I am not arguing for all redirects to be actionable.

I "accused you" of no such thing merely highlighted the fact.

I'm afraid you did...you said:

That account is closed now. Wonder if it was because of the reception given after their first thread?

Which is basically wondering if my post caused the account to be closed.

The manner in which you've conducted your posts on this thread and others in this forum may be the reason you feel you've been called any of the above.

What is this 'manner' you find so objectionable? 'Manner' is a bit vague in fairness. Care to be specific?

MugMugs

MadsL wrote: »

I imagine if you got a speeding ticket you would still argue speeding was wrong. I was wrong to post what I did - but I still believe redirection is backseat modding. Is that hard to follow?

Speeding? I speed daily. I don't however protest over people speeding. Is it hard to follow? Absolutely. It's also highly hypocritical by you.

MadsL wrote: »

This is exactly my point. You think my post was actionable enough to warrant a ban, therefore redirections done in a snide or annoying way (rather than helpful way) are backseat modding/being a dick.

I said you should have been banned but NOT for the redirection but for the manner in which you failed yourself.

MadsL wrote: »

I'm afraid you did...you said:

Which is basically wondering if my post caused the account to be closed.

I drew coincidence. I didn't accuse you of anything. There's a vast difference between the two.

MadsL

MugMugs wrote: »

Speeding? I speed daily. I don't however protest over people speeding. Is it hard to follow? Absolutely. It's also highly hypocritical by you.

Do you condone speeding?

I said you should have been banned but NOT for the redirection but for the manner in which you failed yourself.

"The manner in which I failed myself"? This is all getting a bit Christian Brothers...

I drew coincidence. I didn't accuse you of anything. There's a vast difference between the two.

You left it hanging...the inference was pretty clear.

Anyway, you seem to want to turn this thread into a discussion on my personal shortcomings so I suggest (at the risk of failing myself once more) that we take that discussion to the Thunderdome ) and talk about the topic instead.

biko

Oh a thread about Dublin posts in AH *wets myself*

MadsL

biko wrote: »

Oh a thread about Dublin posts in AH *wets myself*

There was me thinking it was about backseat modding.

LoLth

I think this one has run its course.

Madsl, I'm sure the mods will read over this and take your points into consideration. I dont think though, that we can make any boards.ie -wide policy change to stop people being helpful with redirection so it then comes down to mods deciding if a user is being helpful or being a dick - and that's notoriously hard to prove even if the mods get it right!

for now. lead by example. maybe others will get the message and start to play nice too.