Bathroom directly off kitchen

cossiem0d0

Hello all you wise people,

I'm looking for some advice. I'm looking at a house at the moment that has a full bathroom directly off the kitchen. When I asked if this meets the regulations, the EA replied that the regs have been changed and if you have a sufficient fan (it was very loud) that its then ok.

I've searched the regs online and can only find reference to the bathroom needing to be 'adequately separated' from the kitchen...nothing new about a strong fan or anything.

Do you guys know if the regs have been changed? Think I'd probably want to put in a lobby anyway (there's some space) but just want to know when talking to the EA again.

Thanks!
Cossiem0d0

Surveyor11

Would never trust the advice of an agent - he's trying to sell the house and most of the time won't have a clue about building regulations. He won't let anything get in the way of a sale. Are you looking to buy or rent this property?

How old is the house? if it's pre-building regulations i.e. 1990 then it can't be retrospectively enforced. If it is built after 1990, then you are within your rights to have the vendor put it right. It would be a requirement for hygiene purposes to have a bathroom lobbied. The below taken from Part G of the Building Regulation Technical Guidance Documents (TGD):

2.5 A room or space containing a water closet should be separated from a place used for the preparation or
cooking of food by means of: -
(a) in the case of a building used solely as a dwelling, a door, and
(b) in any other case, a properly ventilated passage or lobby.

Ventilation is a separate issue - does the WC have a window? Part F of the TGD'

1.2.2.3 For wet rooms, e.g. kitchens, utility rooms, bathrooms or rooms with sanitary facilities (without bath), where mechanical extract ventilation is provided and there is no provision for general ventilation by means of controllable background ventilator and no provision for purge ventilation by means of an openable window, the mechanical extract ventilation should include an automatic 15 minute overrun (after switchoff). "

cossiem0d0

Hi Surveyor,

Thanks so much for you response. I think the EA had been asked the question a few times so had their response ready. Its a pre-1990 house but the renovations including new kitchen & bathroom were done in the last few years so I'm pretty sure it would have to comply with the regulations.

As far as I remember there was no window in the bathroom - just this very loud fan. I had never heard about the regs being changed allowing just a fan so I was a bit suspicious alright.

We're viewing it again and I just wanted to find out if the EA was correct about the regs so we're armed with a bit more info!

Thanks again!

Moonbeam

In my 1st house all the houses had the downstairs toilet off the kitchen these houses were build around 2005.

pwurple

I think you have your answer on regs, but I wouldn't buy a house with the main bathroom adjoining the kitchen, with only a fan rather than a window.

It would be a no-no for me, and moving a bathroom isn't a small undertaking either.

miss no stars

General good practice is a 2 door separation. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Surveyor11

Mechanical ventilation (i.e. a fan) is perfectly acceptable in the absence of a window - but it sounds like the issue is more with the absence of a lobby.

If the renovations were done post-1990, they still have to comply with the Building regulations and, in this case, a lobbied toilet would come under this remit. I would be requesting an opinion from the vendor of a professional (architect / engineer / surveyor) who is familiar with the regs. Sounds suspect to me, but nothing surprises me - there's very little enforcement here.

joeguevara

Surveyor11 wrote: »

Mechanical ventilation (i.e. a fan) is perfectly acceptable in the absence of a window - but it sounds like the issue is more with the absence of a lobby.

If the renovations were done post-1990, they still have to comply with the Building regulations and, in this case, a lobbied toilet would come under this remit. I would be requesting an opinion from the vendor of a professional (architect / engineer / surveyor) who is familiar with the regs. Sounds suspect to me, but nothing surprises me - there's very little enforcement here.

In my reading of the regs, for a property that is solely a dwelling, all that is required is a door (i.e. not a lobby)? But I could be reading it wrong.

murphaph

I wouldn't purchase a property with a bathroom leading straight off a kitchen area tbh. It would put me right off. I have a rental property that has only one bathroom upstairs. When the tenant leaves (could be some years, the place is RAS and tenants very happy) I'm going to do a full refurb including adding downstairs WC. I have the spot in mind...it's a portion of the current large kitchen BUT I will build a false wall and create 2 door separation be effectively extending my hallway. I never even considered (the easier) option of directly opening the WC into the kitchen/dining area...just a bit gross I think. Imagine sitting at the dinner table listening to someone farting away on the toilet. No thanks!

cossiem0d0

Ha I totally agree murphaph!

There's space existing to create a lobby which is what you would have to do with this house. I just want to be able to say I've done my research when the EA tries to make the 'regulations have changed' claim.

Thanks so much to everyone for their responses!

Cos

Surveyor11

OK, I've checked the Reg's. It would appear the new Regs (July 2011) have dropped the requirement for a lobby - so it is acceptable to have a door leading from a WC to a kitchen. Apologies, but I would primarily work in commercial buildings, for which a lobby is still a requirement.

TheBandicoot

My parent's house, built in the 2000s, has a room directly off the kitchen with a fully plumbed WC and sink, though they mainly use it as a utility room since it also has the washing machine and the boiler. I was told this for disability regulations, needed to have a bathroom on the ground floor(there is a main bathroom upstairs).

Ray Palmer

The lobby requirement has been gone a while I am pretty sure it was in the 90s not 2011. Either way it is gone.

There is a huge amount of houses that have bathroom off the kitchen. The majority of council houses built in the 50s would be like this. Some people have obviously modified the houses since.

It really isn't a problem and peoples' fear of germs is a little misplaced. I get it is personal to everybody though

Wabbit Ears

To be honest I wouldn't care if it was regulation or not, The thought of a bathroom just off the kitchen and EVER having the smallest chance of me eating or cooking food and hearing someone do their business would be an instant deal breaker for me.

Tokyo

How would the "off the kitchen" rule work with modern open plan houses then? My own downstairs bathroom is technically off the kitchen, the kitchen being in one corner of a large open plan area....

murphaph

mike_ie wrote: »

How would the "off the kitchen" rule work with modern open plan houses then? My own downstairs bathroom is technically off the kitchen, the kitchen being in one corner of a large open plan area....

The regs appear to allow it, so it's just a personal decision.

Mrs OBumble

mike_ie wrote: »

How would the "off the kitchen" rule work with modern open plan houses then? My own downstairs bathroom is technically off the kitchen, the kitchen being in one corner of a large open plan area....

Based on the quote above, provided the house is being used a dwelling and thing else, then having a simple door between the two areas appears to be enough.


2.5 A room or space containing a water closet should be separated from a place used for the preparation or
cooking of food by means of: -
(a) in the case of a building used solely as a dwelling, a door, and

joeguevara

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Based on the quote above, provided the house is being used a dwelling and thing else, then having a simple door between the two areas appears to be enough.


2.5 A room or space containing a water closet should be separated from a place used for the preparation or
cooking of food by means of: -
(a) in the case of a building used solely as a dwelling, a door, and

Its gas. You would hardly have a toilet without a door (unless in a serial killers house). Why do they feel the need to mention it.

The_Conductor

joeguevara wrote: »

Its gas. You would hardly have a toilet without a door (unless in a serial killers house). Why do they feel the need to mention it.

Never say never........

murphaph

joeguevara wrote: »

Its gas. You would hardly have a toilet without a door (unless in a serial killers house). Why do they feel the need to mention it.

Someone would try to save on the door

An acquaintance of ours here in Berlin has a shower cubicle in the middle of his small kitchen. There is no space for one in his "bathroom" (just a toilet and a sink in there and no space for anything else). This is not that uncommon in old un-renovated flats in Berlin. This is perfectly legal here!

odds_on

I[ always thought there had to be 2 doors separating the kitchen work area - kitchen door and the bathroom/toilet/wetroom door.

DoozerT6

I lived in a house in New Zealand where the only bathroom was directly off the kitchen/living area. The house had been renovated, so it was a lovely bathroom, but still.....being used to houses in Ireland where the bathroom is completely separate from the living areas, I did find it a bit weird to be sitting on the loo doing what you do and hearing someone literally five feet away from me through the door chopping veggies for their dinner! Also, when I had a shower I would have to dry myself off and either get dressed in the bathroom, or put my dressing gown on to scurry back through the communal area to my bedroom. In any other house, I would just nip from the bathroom across the hall to my bedroom wrapped in a bathtowel, to get dressed etc at my leisure.

But that just wouldn't bother some people. If there is a good extractor fan and/or a window in the bathroom, and people have enough cop on to close the bathroom door after using it if they've had a curry the night before, it may not be an issue. Personally I would not like it and would veto a house on that issue alone, having lived in that type of house before. I guess it's just a privacy thing, more so even than a hygiene one....

foggy_lad

Ray Palmer wrote: »

There is a huge amount of houses that have bathroom off the kitchen. The majority of council houses built in the 50s would be like this. Some people have obviously modified the houses since.

Most of those council houses have a hallway from the kitchen and the toilet is off that, not directly off the kitchen but many have a separate bathroom with bath and sink just off the kitchen.