ECSSAI say have no training records for registered electrical contractor

annam11

Here goes...An electrician completed work on my home in december 2008. The work was a mess so we took him to court and won our case...It has now come to light that he may not have completed the required cert and verification course...I have asked the supervisory body to release his training records as he was registered since 2004...they have now said they don't have records pre 2009. He was a registered electrical contractor so surely they should have proof he was qualified in 2008 to carry out electrical installations and certify as safe??

Thank you

2011

Why do you want the training records?
You have won the case.

My understanding is (and I am open to correction on this) in 2008 any qualified electrician was deemed "qualified" to test electrical installations and fill out the paperwork for same.

The testing and verification courses run by both the ECSSA and RECI were something that they decided to introduce, it was not a legal requirement at the time.

I worked as an electrician form 1995 to 2000 for various electrical contractors without completing one of these courses. In later years I completed the verification and testing course with RECI and then the ECSSA. I was not impressed in either case (very micky mouse).

My understanding is that CER have since decided that the courses being run to date are inadequate (to put it mildly). In fact in the near future CER will insist that all electricians that test & certify will have to have passed the following course:

"City and Guilds Certificate in Electrical Testing and Verification of Electrical Installations 2407 (Ireland)". See link:

http://www.electricalskills.ie/index.php/courses/electrical-testing-verification/

annam11

I want the training records as I hired a registered electrical contractor. He should not have been registered if he had not completed the required courses to certify work. It seems very fishy to me that ecssai are saying they don't have any training records for members pre 2009. Did they just delete the records!!!! What you are stating is true but as he was registered he was required to complete the c&v course every 3 years since 2004. This information was taken from the ecssa's own website in 2004 newsletters....are companies like the ecssai just allowed to delete records?

We won our case...the ecssai passed the installation as safe...the judge said our home was clearly unsafe and awarded compensation...

2011

annam11 wrote: »

I want the training records as I hired a registered electrical contractor. He should not have been registered if he had not completed the required courses to certify work.

My point is that in 2008 he was qualified to complete the work just by being a qualified electrician.

It seems very fishy to me that ecssai are saying they don't have any training records for members pre 2009.

They were not required to have the records as that was "pre CER".

The operation of the statutory regulatory framework for electrical safety by the CER commenced on the 5th of January 2009, replacing the self-regulatory model operated previously by both RECI and ECSSA (now ECSSAI).

Link:
http://www.cer.ie/en/electricity-safety-overview.aspx

Did they just delete the records!!!!

I would guess that they were not required to have them, simple as.

What you are stating is true but as he was registered he was required to complete the c&v course every 3 years since 2004.

I do not believe so. I have large a well know (and excellent) electrical contractor working for me at the moment (pharma plant with very stringent regulations far in excess of the requirements for a domestic installation). None of his crew have completed this course to date.

annam11

December 2003 ECSSA Newsletter:

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO ALL CONTRACTORS
As from January 1st 2004 next ECSSA and RECI will be under direct control of CER (Commission for
Energy Regulation) and as a result all the members and staff of both organisations will be subject to
technical audit of all their work. This could mean that your work could be inspected separately by a
C.E.R. official at any time.
We expect that an official of C.E.R. will visit our offices at regular intervals to inspect every detail of our
organisation such as:
1. Structure: day to day running etc,
2. Procedures for disciplinary action should it arise
3. Records of members attending training courses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
4. Control of books of certificates
5. Control of Green copy of certificates returned from ESB
6. Detailed scrutiny of the quality as shown on these returned green copies
7. Any other investigation they may wish to do

TRAINING COURSES
The following spaces are still available for the training course on Certification and Verification.
DATE COUNTY VENUE AVAILABLE PLACES
9/1/2004 Cork Doughcloyne Hotel, Doughcloyne, Togher, County Cork, 021 4312535 12
24/1/2004 Killarney Gleneagle Hotel, Muckross Road, Killarney, County Kerry, 064 36000 26
6/2/2004 Limerick Clarion Hotel, Steamboat Quay, Limerick, 061 444104 20
20/2/2004 Portlaoise Killeshin Hotel, Dublin Road, Portlaoise, County Portlaoise 26
5/3/2004 Dublin Sheldon Hotel, Park Road, Naas, Dublin, 01 4601055 30
19/3/2004 Kildare The Stand House, The Curragh, County Kildare, Tel: 045 436177 26
26/3/2004 Galway The Quality Hotel, Oranmore, Galway, 091 792244 26
17/4/2004 Sligo Sligo Park Hotel, Pearse Road, Sligo, County Sligo, 071 60291 23
As mentioned in the previous newsletter this training is now mandatory, so do not delay, book a space now for only €80!!!!!!!!!!!

. Attendance at Courses
If one were to strictly apply the CER Criteria for
the Registration of New Members, a contractor
should have completed a Course in Verification &
Certification before that person can be allowed
to self certify work. In practice this would be
almost unworkable in that it would require
Verification & Certification Courses to be
available throughout the year and throughout
the country. In the absence of sufficient numbers
to make such Courses financially viable, the cost
to individual applicants would be prohibitive. In
practice, ECSSA has permitted contractors to
become Provisional Members until such time that
they successfully complete a Verification &
Certification Course. On his first visit to meet
such a contractor, their local Inspector tries to
ensure that the New Member is fully conversant
with the tests required and the procedures for
carrying them out. However, we have an
unacceptable number of new members who do
not avail of the Courses in their areas within
their first year of membership. This has now
reached a level of seriousness where Provisional
Members who do not complete a Course in the
Winter/Spring following their initial joining, will
have the facility to self certify withdrawn until
such time as the situation is regularised.
We must therefore insist that all New Members
who joined in 2006 attend one of the remaining
Courses before February 24th.

2011

Ok, fair point

I am not here to defend the ECSSA or the electrical contractor.
As I said in my first post on this thread:

My understanding is (and I am open to correction on this) in 2008 any qualified electrician was deemed "qualified" to test electrical installations and fill out the paperwork for same.

Anyway, it would seem that this is academic as you have won the case.

annam11

All I want is records to prove he completed the course...The ECSSA said it was mandatory but still they say they have no records... makes no sense...also RECI have training records going back to 2001

2011

annam11 wrote: »

All I want is records to prove he completed the course...The ECSSA said it was mandatory but still they say they have no records... makes no sense...also RECI have training records going back to 2001

Assuming you get them, what would you do with them?
Does the contractor claim to have completed the course ?
If so he would have been issued a cert.

annam11

The ECSSAI claim he completed the required c&v course...so when I asked for proof they said they don't have records..I want the records to ensure who certified my home was safe was fully qualified and had all mandatory courses completed

2011

annam11 wrote: »

I want the records to ensure who certified my home was safe was fully qualified and had all mandatory courses completed

Clearly the cert you were issued is null & void regardless of the testers qualifications due to the standard of the work?

annam11

No because the ECSSAI passed the installation as safe..laughable I know....the engineer found live loose wires unprotected...bonding and earthing was not complete and the standard of work was a disgrace...had to get a new electrician in fix it and certify it as safe with a post connection cert...Do you know the legal requirement of companies like the ecssai to keep and retain records...citizens information think it is 6years

Stoner

annam11 wrote: »

Do you know the legal requirement of companies like the ecssai to keep and retain records...citizens information think it is 6years

Ok, you've now asked a legal question, this is the electrical forum, we don't know if these companies fall under the freedom of information act, and we don't offer legal advice here sorry. Please read the forum charter on legal advice.

If you have successfully been down a legal road then I don't know what this post will serve to achieve, possibly this is not over for you, but this is not the forum to develop your situation further in.

We wish you the best of luck with your new installation.:)

E. Fudd

Just for the record it's ECSSA not ECSSAI. It's just if you're going to get all legal and all you may aswell address them correctly.

tomdempsey200

i was reci member from 96 -2010

don't think it was mandatory in that time to attend the course


you sound like a nightmare customer anyhow-prob nitpicking over every detail with your engineer looking for compo

there's a facility in place whereby remedial work is carried out

annam11

Just for the record its ECSSAI since january 5th 2009...visit the cer website for info...

I was definitely not a nightmare customer believe me...I had to complain to the ECSSAI as the work that was carried out was a disgrace...as I said I won my case...The only reason I want to see the electricians qualifications is to be sure he was qualified as the work was sub standard and dangerous as proven in court...He could have carried out more work on other installations that probably should be retested...

annam11

Compo...the electrician hadn't a penny so did not receive compo...I am not the kind of person who looks for compo anyway...I just wanted my house fixed after what he did to it

2011

I think that this thread has run its course.