Things In American Football That Grind Your Gears

Mr Pseudonym

Does anyone else wonder about the Extra Point Conversion. Last season, all but five teams had 100% success rate, and four of the other five were 96%+.

NFL Team Extra Point Conversion Percentage - 2012

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of those missed conversions were as a result of dodgy snaps and fumbles. I think it's a little ridiculous to have 22 players engaging in a play, where only three players make a difference. Anyone any ideas for an alternative?

Realt Dearg Sec

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Does anyone else wonder about the Extra Point Conversion. Last season, all but five teams had 100% success rate, and four of the other five were 96%+.

NFL Team Extra Point Conversion Percentage - 2012

I'd be willing to bet that the majority of those missed conversions were as a result of dodgy snaps and fumbles. I think it's a little ridiculous to have 22 players engaging in a play, where only three players make a difference. Anyone any ideas for an alternative?

An alternative might be to get rid of it, make a two point attempt compulsory?

Realt Dearg Sec

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

An alternative might be to get rid of it, make a two point attempt compulsory?

I'd live that but can't see it ever happening

P_1

Maybe take a leaf from rugby's book and make the PAT kick get longer the further out from the center of the pitch the TD is scored.

eg:
TD scored between the hatches = ball on the 2
TD scored < 5m outside the hashes = ball on the 10
TD scored between 5 and 10m from the hashes = ball on the 15
TD scored >10m from the hashes = ball on the 20

Mr Pseudonym

I just read an article which contended that a reason why NBA is more likely to catch on in Europe than NFL is that the scoring system is very complicated.

Honestly, have you ever tried to explain the scoring system in football to someone who is unfamiliar with the game? “Kicking the ball between the uprights is worth three points, but only one point if it comes after a touchdown, which is worth six points, unless the offense tries to score again from the two-yard line, in which case they get two points, which the defense can also get by tackling the offense in its own end zone.”

Maybe I'm looking at it through the eyes of a rugby fan, but I don't think AF rules are especially complicated in practise.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

An alternative might be to get rid of it, make a two point attempt compulsory?

I don't like the idea that, after a full drive, there'd a compulsory mini one.


Here's a really interesting blog post regarding Two Point Conversions:

Almost Always Go for 2-Point Conversions?|Advanced NFL Stats

Really interesting that despite a 60% vs 45% success rate in favour of running, passing plays are attempted three quarters of the time.

Mr Pseudonym

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I just read an article which contended that a reason why NBA is more likely to catch on in Europe than NFL is that the scoring system is very complicated.

American article?
Basketball is probably more complicated to be honest. A basket is worth 2, unless you get it from far away and it's 3. Sometimes it's 1 if it's a free throw and you get a free throw for some fouls but not all. Usually you get 2 free throws but it can be 3 if you were shooting for a 3-pointer. Oh and if you were making a shot at the time of the foul and it goes in then you only get 1 free-throw.

Mr Pseudonym

P_1 wrote: »

Maybe take a leaf from rugby's book and make the PAT kick get longer the further out from the center of the pitch the TD is scored.

eg:
TD scored between the hatches = ball on the 2
TD scored < 5m outside the hashes = ball on the 10
TD scored between 5 and 10m from the hashes = ball on the 15
TD scored >10m from the hashes = ball on the 20

It would likely reduce success rate, but still there is the issue of three players generally determining the outcome. I also wonder would it not by unappealing (as I think it is in rugby) seeing the players attempting to score closer to the posts.

P_1

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

It would likely reduce success rate, but still there is the issue of three players generally determining the outcome. I also wonder would it not by unappealing (as I think it is in rugby) seeing the players attempting to score closer to the posts.

True, in fairness you only have one player determining the outcome in rugby too. With football, theoretically all 11 of the defending players can determine the outcome of the PAT by attempting to block it though.

Mr Pseudonym

Deleted User wrote: »

American article?
Basketball is probably more complicated to be honest. A basket is worth 2, unless you get it from far away and it's 3. Sometimes it's 1 if it's a free throw and you get a free throw for some fouls but not all. Usually you get 2 free throws but it can be 3 if you were shooting for a 3-pointer. Oh and if you were making a shot at the time of the foul and it goes in then you only get 1 free-throw.

NFL Thinking of London Expansion, But NBA Remains Best Candidate to Jump Into European Market|New England Sports Network

You're probably marginally correct. But, after one game, only the slowest would fail to have picked up the rules!

matthew8

It's the same with a penalty in soccer as well. I think it's a bit of a non-issue though because it only takes about 10 seconds, creates no ad breaks and most people don't really watch it anyway.

Mr Pseudonym

P_1 wrote: »

True, in fairness you only have one player determining the outcome in rugby too. With football, theoretically all 11 of the defending players can determine the outcome of the PAT by attempting to block it though.

This is so exciting: I've never been able to have NFL discussion before! My point was that, after the snap, 22 players go into action, but, almost always, success depends on those three.

Mr Pseudonym

matthew8 wrote: »

It's the same with a penalty in soccer as well. I think it's a bit of a non-issue though because it only takes about 10 seconds, creates no ad breaks and most people don't really watch it anyway.

Regarding the ads: this is something polderbruin posted earlier about what annoys him:

The TD, break, PAT, break, kickoff, break sequence. Just do away with the PAT already

Mr Pseudonym

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

NFL Thinking of London Expansion, But NBA Remains Best Candidate to Jump Into European Market|New England Sports Network

You're probably marginally correct. But, after one game, only the slowest would fail to have picked up the rules!

Disagree massively with most of that article tbh. I don't know anyone who follows the NBA but know plenty who follow NFL. I don't see a European NFL expansion team in the short-term anyway but the numbers in London would likely work and Germany would be another place a team could probably be dropped in quickly. As well as everything else, the need to travel for 8 away matches per year rather than 40 something for the NBA. Scheduling would obviously be awkward for either but I would think any expansion of the NFL could see an extra bye-week added and some scheduling jiggery could leave a London or German franchise only needing to make 3-4 TA flights per regular season.

All pie in the sky stuff though tbh.

matthew8

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

Regarding the ads: this is something polderbruin posted earlier about what annoys him:

The TD, break, PAT, break, kickoff, break sequence. Just do away with the PAT already

There is no break between TD and PAT though, unless there's a challenge.

spiralism

Forgot one, and its a real pet hate this; how moronic the crowd culture is in the NFL and in American sports in general.

I fail to understand how at soccer the world over fans have proper chants, flags, tifosi, ultras groups and a real fan culture while in American sports the height of it is "DEE-FENSE" chants with the odd person holding up a sign of the letter D and a piece of fencing. Every time i hear chants of "let's go (team name)" "here we go (team name), here we go" or the likes i die a little bit inside.

It's not as if the fan culture has nothing it can be built on either, tailgates are brilliant and the atmosphere at some of the grounds in terms of sheer noise is incredible, with Arrowhead and CenturyLink field the two loudest stadiums in the world. I just dont understand how all of that translates into two/three syllable chants and fight songs (dont get me started) that a child in junior infants could come up with!

AIR-AUSSIE

spiralism wrote: »

Forgot one, and its a real pet hate this; how moronic the crowd culture is in the NFL and in American sports in general.

I fail to understand how at soccer the world over fans have proper chants, flags, tifosi, ultras groups and a real fan culture while in American sports the height of it is "DEE-FENSE" chants with the odd person holding up a sign of the letter D and a piece of fencing. Every time i hear chants of "let's go (team name)" "here we go (team name), here we go" or the likes i die a little bit inside.

This. The same in rugby though for the most part.

Son Of A Vidic

spiralism wrote: »

Forgot one, and its a real pet hate this; how moronic the crowd culture is in the NFL and in American sports in general.

I fail to understand how at soccer the world over fans have proper chants, flags, tifosi, ultras groups and a real fan culture while in American sports the height of it is "DEE-FENSE" chants with the odd person holding up a sign of the letter D and a piece of fencing

Go to any GAA game, hurling or football and you also don't get any chants, songs or ultras. Soccer stands alone in that regard so I don't think it's an American fan thing.

spiralism

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Go to any GAA game, hurling or football and you also don't get any chants, songs or ultras. Soccer stands alone in that regard so I don't think it's an American fan thing.

I think GAA fan culture stands alone in its own right tbh, just the nature of it.

Not entirely sure on that one either tbh, rugby games in france, italy and argentina off the top of my head have a great buzz at them, as do basketball/hockey games in many countries outside the US.

Son Of A Vidic

spiralism wrote: »

I think GAA fan culture stands alone in its own right tbh, just the nature of it.

It's our national sport exclusive to this island and very similar to the NFL in that respect. But unlike the NFL, GAA fans at games can be virtually lifeless.

Morrisseeee

Ah yes hurling, the greatest game on earth. I don't know how many of ye have tried it, but it's an unbelievable game to play !

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

But unlike the NFL, GAA fans at games can be virtually lifeless.

Lifeless, I don't understand ! What games are you on about ?! I've been involved in games at club level, and they're far from lifeless (on the sideline). The only thing I can think of is one-sided games, and this would happen in the NFL aswell.

The GAA game is so fast and constant action that you don't have time to catch your breath, never mind get a few lads together to get a chant going :pac:

Actually this brings up my bugbear: fan bias. Championship playoff games should be either neutral or split 50/50 with opposing fans, like in GAA. In the NFL (week in week out and up to the SB) you have a huge bias for one team.

Son Of A Vidic

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Ah yes hurling, the greatest game on earth. I don't know how many of ye have tried it, but it's an unbelievable game to play

The discussion wasn't about the skill level of any game. But rather how fans react during games. But since you mentioned it, yes hurling imo, is by far the most skillful ball game on the planet. I played it as a kid and I was pretty shít at it.

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Lifeless, I don't understand ! What games are you on about ?! I've been involved in games at club level, and they're far from lifeless (on the sideline). The only thing I can think of is one-sided games, and this would happen in the NFL aswell.

GAA fans don't have chants, songs or ultras and that was the issue raised by another poster when talking about the NFL. I don't know why your referencing the sideline because I was talking about fans. The only cheering you get from them is when a ball goes over or under the bar. And that's the way it has always been in my experience.

Molly

spiralism wrote: »

While in American sports the height of it is "DEE-FENSE" chants with the odd person holding up a sign of the letter D and a piece of fencing.

Ah yes, had a 6 year old behind me at Foxboro last week just roaring that for the whole game because his Father told him to. Voice was so high it was horrendous. If only his father could have thought him a couple of other words.

Other annoying things.

NFL fans seem to be even more fickle than other sports fans. The contrast between what fans were shouting during at the pats during the first half against the phins and the second half was ridiculous. Never experienced it that badly at a soccer/gaa game or even a bruins game.

The stupidity of the players is unbelievable. Running out of bounds when trying to run down the clock, running into the end zone instead of just falling down and wasting time, throwing players out of bounds when you are trying to keep them in bounds

Brandon Merriweather

spiralism

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

It's our national sport exclusive to this island and very similar to the NFL in that respect. But unlike the NFL, GAA fans at games can be virtually lifeless.

Agreed. I wouldnt comepare it to any other sport though as most of the time a fan culture does not exist. (Dublin supporters aside really) Not to say these people arent often serious fans given that many would go to every game at every level but a culture of singing etc just hasnt been in the supporter mindset of the sport for one reason or another.

It's why it irritates me in the NFL though, you see how loud Arrowhead and CenturyLink get for example and the best fans can come up with in the ground is junior infants level stuff.

Morrisseeee

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

The discussion wasn't about the skill level of any game. But rather how fans react during games.

I don't know why your referencing the sideline because I was talking about fans.
The only cheering you get from them is when a ball goes over or under the bar. And that's the way it has always been in my experience.

Skill level, yeah sorry, that was me just going gaa-gaa & remembering all those years I spent playing hurling :P

I referenced the sideline because that's where the fans are, and that's where the passion is, ie. even at local level. I certainly don't remember the 'fans' being lifeless. If we take it a level higher, and lets take it to the Leinster Hurling final & All Ireland Final and I've been there (1996) & witnessed my team win both, and the fans were anything but lifeless !

If we take the hurling final as an example, and yes you're right in that the fans go wild when there's a score, but they also cheer & groan at other 'incidents' during the game. I think because hurling is so fast, the action is non-stop, that the fans don't really have time to sit back & sing songs, you can do that in the pub later (if ye win!).

But the big difference between GAA & the NFL is the fan bias, ie. GAA (esp at Championship games) has a pretty equal sharing of fans from both sides. Only 1 game in the NFL has it's equal sharing of fans & that's the SB.

Realt Dearg Sec

Morrisseeee wrote: »

But the big difference between GAA & the NFL is the fan bias, ie. GAA (esp at Championship games) has a pretty equal sharing of fans from both sides. Only 1 game in the NFL has it's equal sharing of fans & that's the SB.

Yeah but having games at a neutral venue in the GAA involves forcing people to cross maybe a couple of counties with a few hours of a journey (and as it happens I would prefer MORE home & away fixtures in the GAA). The NFL is spread over four time-zones and thousands of miles, so the only way to ensure big crowds is through home and away scheduling anyway. Incidentally, when the Bears play the Packers there's a pretty big GB contingent there. It's not 50/50 but there was plenty of noise while we were trying and mostly failing to drive up the field.

Hazys

spiralism wrote: »

Forgot one, and its a real pet hate this; how moronic the crowd culture is in the NFL and in American sports in general.

I fail to understand how at soccer the world over fans have proper chants, flags, tifosi, ultras groups and a real fan culture while in American sports the height of it is "DEE-FENSE" chants with the odd person holding up a sign of the letter D and a piece of fencing. Every time i hear chants of "let's go (team name)" "here we go (team name), here we go" or the likes i die a little bit inside.

It's not as if the fan culture has nothing it can be built on either, tailgates are brilliant and the atmosphere at some of the grounds in terms of sheer noise is incredible, with Arrowhead and CenturyLink field the two loudest stadiums in the world. I just dont understand how all of that translates into two/three syllable chants and fight songs (dont get me started) that a child in junior infants could come up with!

TBH I cringe when I see Soccer fans who sing are touted as the benchmark for fans in sports.

The singing at games is completely arbitrary and has very little to do with the current situation in the game or to will their team to win. Some of the songs are just nursery rhymes turned praise or insult for a player.

Singing is more prevalent in soccer because for the majority of the game nothing is happening and you don't need to react to the sport as much. You couldn't sing full songs at American sporting events because Basketball and hockey are end to end and in Football usually something happens pretty regularly, aka its a 3rd down or turnover on downs.

As for Ultras, majority of people are people in the hardcore fan base are from working class backgrounds and use the team as a way to identify themselves and for Ultras their team comes second to themselves. In a lot of cases around the world, Ultras are just street level gangs involved in criminality and use their team as their calling card. Real fans of soccer teams generally aren't Ultras. I was at a Roma game once and the Ultras turned their back to the pitch and sang for 10 minutes...wtf?

I'm not saying Soccer fans are the worst sport fans, their certainly not but they are not the best for the reasons you mentioned. I think to rank sports fans, you'd have to do it by team and stadium and their passion for their team, not by sport.

I've been to many Pats games and the atmosphere in the stadium is kinda crap but I wouldn't rank Pats fans as poor fans just because the atmosphere in the stadium is poor. A guy I work with is a massive Pats fan and season ticket holder but he doesn't dress up in body paint, sing random songs and scream for 3 hours. Meeting him Monday morning, he is either the happiest man on the planet or has a noose around his neck, he is a true fan. I rather have him as a Pats fan who actually cares about the team rather than some event junkie who gets drunk, screams for 3 hours but the team loses and he's already moved on. And I'm sure you have Man Utd and Liverpool fans who are exactly the same.

Son Of A Vidic

I think something being over looked is the whole issue of the home team in the NFL. When your team is on the field you gotta be as quiet as possible, otherwise too much noise runs the risk of a miscommunication during an offensive signal call. And that's the last thing you want to do to your team. It probably makes the NFL pretty unique in that way, the needed to keep quiet when your offense is on the field.

FreeOSCAR

With the day that's in it another thing to mention.

The Trade Deadline hype - Something big very rarely happens (No offence isaac Sopoaga) yet Schefter, Ian Rapoport, Jay Glazer and the rest flooding my twitter feed with stories which they promote as Gospel one minute and then rubbish the story the next.

On that topic of NFL Reporters - Albert Breer from the NFL Network, met him in a bar in Boston during the summer - Always thought he was a toss*r on twitter the way he would go on about Notre Dame, chatting to him for 5 mins confirmed it.

Hazys

FreeOSCAR wrote: »

With the day that's in it another thing to mention.

The Trade Deadline hype - Something big very rarely happens (No offence isaac Sopoaga) yet Schefter, Ian Rapoport, Jay Glazer and the rest flooding my twitter feed with stories which they promote as Gospel one minute and then rubbish the story the next.

On that topic of NFL Reporters - Albert Breer from the NFL Network, met him in a bar in Boston during the summer - Always thought he was a toss*r on twitter the way he would go on about Notre Dame, chatting to him for 5 mins confirmed it.

You can't be too greedy.

Fair enough the soccer deadline day is more exciting than trade deadline but we get 3 days of the draft and free agency opening day...both are much more exciting and drama filled than the soccer deadline day.

FreeOSCAR

Hazys wrote: »

You can't be too greedy.

Fair enough the soccer deadline day is more exciting than trade deadline but we get 3 days of the draft and free agency opening day...both are much more exciting and drama filled than the soccer deadline day.

Ah I know - My problem isn't with the day itself, more so with the half fabricated stories the reporters churn out. Good point though, it's still nowhere near as obnoxious as the Sky Sports deadline day coverage.

The 1st Round of the NFL Draft is one of the most entertaining sports events around. Love the hype around that.

Always found my interest in free agency tipped up and down depending on how much cap room my team had to spend. Hard to get excited when your top free agent signing had no other suitors. I remember when the Jets where going for Nnamdi 3 years or so back I was over the moon thinking they had him.

In hindsight, it was a bullet well dodged

Red Crow

The spelling of defence and offence!

Realt Dearg Sec

Red Crow wrote: »

The spelling of defence and offence!

D I=I=I! D I=I=I!

davyjose

Red Crow wrote: »

The spelling of defence and offence!

Hardly American football's fault: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_spelling_differences

Mr. Guappa

The owner of the Superbowl winner taking centre stage and been handed the Lombardi trophy always strikes me as being the lamest thing in the world.

me89

Cecil Martin in the sky studio.

His analysis of the game is so poor, any question he gets asked gets answered with "any given sunday in the nfl". He brings nothing to the show:mad:

frostie500

me89 wrote: »

Cecil Martin in the sky studio.

His analysis of the game is so poor, any question he gets asked gets answered with "any given sunday in the nfl". He brings nothing to the show:mad:

There's very little on the Sky show that I actually like!

davyjose

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

The owner of the Superbowl winner taking centre stage and been handed the Lombardi trophy always strikes me as being the lamest thing in the world.

I used to think this. But in the era of the salary cap and an even playing field, I'm convinced a good owner is imperative to success. Look at the change in a team like New England since Kraft took ownership, or the sh!tshow in Dallas the last 15 years.

BaronVon

I don't mind the constant ad breaks too much. Very annoying at first, but you get used to them after a couple of seasons!

What really annoys me is, when at a live game, and the TV goes to an ad break. They players are all left standing on the field. You'd imagine they'd be back on the sideline discussing tactics or whatever, but more often than not, they're just standing around, chatting to each other, waiting for the ref to give them the nod to start again.

It looks quite ridiculous!

HigginsJ

me89 wrote: »

Cecil Martin in the sky studio.

His analysis of the game is so poor, any question he gets asked gets answered with "any given sunday in the nfl". He brings nothing to the show:mad:

To be fair I think poor Cecil took a few too many knocks during his career. I agree with you though he brings nothing

Syferus

davyjose wrote: »

I used to think this. But in the era of the salary cap and an even playing field, I'm convinced a good owner is imperative to success. Look at the change in a team like New England since Kraft took ownership, or the sh!tshow in Dallas the last 15 years.

Still looks incredibly strange and forced. Imagine the county sectary lifting the Sam Maguire first. It takes the momentum out of a very special moment.

Arawn

Syferus wrote: »

Still looks incredibly strange and forced. Imagine the county sectary lifting the Sam Maguire first. It takes the momentum out of a very special moment.

players win trophys for the clubs. Owner owns club. Logical that he gets his trophy first!

Realt Dearg Sec

Arawn wrote: »

players win trophys for the clubs. Owner owns club. Logical that he gets his trophy first!

Yeah but it just reminds me of Mr. Burns on the Pin Pals bowling team.

Homer: Woo hoo! We won! We won!
Burns: You mean, I won.
Apu: But we were a team, sir.
Burns: Oh, I'm afraid I've had one of my trademark changes of heart. You see, teamwork will only take you so far. Then, the truly evolved person makes that extra grab for personal glory. Now, I must discard my teammates, much like the boxer must shed roll after roll of sweaty, useless, disgusting flab before he can win the title. Ta!

jack presley

It's not an NFL thing, it's a cultural thing. In every American sport, the owner of the team collects the trophy. John Henry was presented with the World Series title during the week, not one of the players.

Masked Man

jack presley wrote: »

It's not an NFL thing, it's a cultural thing. In every American sport, the owner of the team collects the trophy. John Henry was presented with the World Series title during the week, not one of the players.

Think the Stanley Cup is presented on the ice to the captain.

Should probably be given to the HC but in the nfl but the trophy is for the franchise so I guess the owner is as good a representative as anybody else.

Syferus

Arawn wrote: »

players win trophys for the clubs. Owner owns club. Logical that he gets his trophy first!

Only in America does the old men parade after national title wins approach being logical. It's always faintly ridiculous to watch.

davyjose

Syferus wrote: »

Still looks incredibly strange and forced. Imagine the county sectary lifting the Sam Maguire first. It takes the momentum out of a very special moment.

Not even remotely the same thing tbh.

davyjose

Syferus wrote: »

Only in America does the old men parade after national title wins approach being logical. It's always faintly ridiculous to watch.

Are you saying the owner doesn't have an impact on the team's success? It's ridiculous to you because culturally you haven't grown up with that as part of your sporting culture.

From the outside, it makes perfect sense. The figurehead of the team is the owner. Therefore it makes sense. It's not as if the players are excluded.

Syferus

davyjose wrote: »

Not even remotely the same thing tbh.

An old man with a cheque book? Let's be honest, no one's particularly worried about where the money is coming from. A county secretary, or more exactly a county board in its totality, have much more of a day-today role in running their teams than almost all owners in American sports do, Jerry Jones excepted.

Outside of a few edge cases it's plug-and-play with a rich fella when it comes to owners. In a few cases, say the Rooneys, they are a benefit to their club but that's ignoring the wealth of average owners whose teams win every year. It's simple enough to be a good owner, hire a good GM and leave well enough alone.

The owner plays a role but so does a county board, a soccer club's owner, the IRFU in terms of our professional rugby teams. You rarely see those people accepting the trophy before the players and coaches who actually won the blasted thing.

The silliness surrounding owners stems from America's yuppie-eque glorification of money and finical success. We've obviously been guilty of the same but it's never infected our sports in the same intrusive manner.

764dak

I hate when teams get penalties for having two many players on the field. The player that caused the penalty basically didn't pay attention to the coach.

P_1

Mr. Guappa wrote: »

The owner of the Superbowl winner taking centre stage and been handed the Lombardi trophy always strikes me as being the lamest thing in the world.

Don't NFL teams have about 5 captains though? Bit of a difference between sending Leo Cullen/Stephen Cluxton up to collect the Heineken/Sam and sending Tom Brady and 4 others up to collect the Lombardi