Questions for Greenkeepers?

Fescue

denishurley wrote: »

On pitchmarks, how easy/hard is it to fix the ones that haven't been repaired immediately? I can never understand why so many people don't do it, it's a small price to pay for a good shot

An unrepaired pitch mark takes a long time to recover, even longer when the growing season is over. These scars left behind also offer an opportunity for weeds to infiltrate the putting surface.

If any of you are interested, the anatomy of the pitch mark left by a golf ball can also indicate the how well your greens are being managed.

See below.

http://www.usga.org/turf/green_section_record/2008/sep_oct/pitch_mark.pdf

Fescue

Anatom wrote: »

Excellent thread Fescue.

In your opinion, if we take a typical parkland golf club which might be facing some financial difficulty, and therefore need to reduce its greenkeeping budget, where can they save the most money without sacrificing the quality of their product too much?

Also (and this sounds like a press conference and I'm getting in a second question here before the moderator wrenches the microphone away and gives it to someone else!!), can you talk us through a typical greenkeeper's day, say at this time of year? Or is there any such thing as a "typical" day at all?

Webbs wrote: »

Agree is great to see someone on here to inform us as to where our preconceived ideas are unobtainable or just plain wrong.

I would perhaps stretch the day to a typical week during the busy months (April to Sept) if possible?

what would a typical weekly plan be (fairways cutting, green cutting etc)? Is it all about getting the course ready for the weekend comps etc.

Thats a difficult one to answer in any detail as the days vary so much from one to another.

Typically during the growing season, the mornings will be about preparing the course for the days play. That usually entails course set up, mowing greens and raking bunkers. If greens need to be sprayed this is typically done in the morning to keep ahead of play. Most mowing events begin in the morning to keep ahead of play where possible.

The afternoons vary greatly but typically mowing is continued. Perhaps other maintenance events are carried out also. Much of this varies wildly from course to course so its impossible to be too specific. The great thing about greenkeeping is that no two days are usually the same.

The winter usually see a slow down in growth and the necessity and benefits of mowing frequently reduce. This usually allows time for renovation works to be carried out. Revetting bunkers, drainage works, tree surgery etc...This can be a great break from the monotony of mowing albeit the weather can be tough to bear.

Throughout all of this though the greenkeeping staff are always monitoring the course, indeed this is probably the most important aspect of greenkeeping. Identifying problems and rectifying them before any of you guys become aware of them at all.

Fescue

slave1 wrote: »

Demonstrating ignorance here but that is the way I fixed pitch marks until I read a massive sign in Druid's Glen which outlined lifting the surface up which is contrary to your advice?

I've seen that also. Ignore it!

FixdePitchmark

Fescue wrote: »

I've seen that also. Ignore it!

I did that for years and only got it right about 3 years ago - hence username.

I still see it done wrong by somebody - most times in a group. Particularly amongst casual golfers.

In fairness it is intuitive to pop up. But wrong.

Fescue

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I did that for years and only got it right about 3 years ago - hence username.

I still see it done wrong by somebody - most times in a group. Particularly amongst casual golfers.

In fairness it is intuitive to pop up. But wrong.

Yeah, agree completely, I did it this way when I started greenkeeping also.

Fescue

Anatom wrote: »

Excellent thread Fescue.

In your opinion, if we take a typical parkland golf club which might be facing some financial difficulty, and therefore need to reduce its greenkeeping budget, where can they save the most money without sacrificing the quality of their product too much?

Also (and this sounds like a press conference and I'm getting in a second question here before the moderator wrenches the microphone away and gives it to someone else!!), can you talk us through a typical greenkeeper's day, say at this time of year? Or is there any such thing as a "typical" day at all?

I'm just going to be honest here and say I can't answer that in any meaningful way.

It is so site specific, only your head greenkeeper will know how to balance that situation properly.

sydneybound

Great thread, thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.

When playing strandhill in the summer I was told by members that maintaining a links course is much easier and cheaper than maintaining a standard parkland course (not talking about an exclusive course like Druids Glen or Adare Manor here). They claimed the fairway and general grass growth is a lot slower thus meaning it needs to be cut less and reduces on staff hours. While they let the rough grow during the summer months which dies in the winter. I wasn't sure what to make about it myself but the course was in super nick.

So therefore is it cheaper and easier to maintain a links course rather than parkland?

Fescue

sydneybound wrote: »

Great thread, thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.

When playing strandhill in the summer I was told by members that maintaining a links course is much easier and cheaper than maintaining a standard parkland course (not talking about an exclusive course like Druids Glen or Adare Manor here). They claimed the fairway and general grass growth is a lot slower thus meaning it needs to be cut less and reduces on staff hours. While they let the rough grow during the summer months which dies in the winter. I wasn't sure what to make about it myself but the course was in super nick.

So therefore is it cheaper and easier to maintain a links course rather than parkland?

There is an element of truth in what they say.

The grasses that dominate links courses are the finer grasses, fescue and bent. These grasses are slower growing than the coarser grasses found on most parklands. They are more drought and disease resistant. They require less fertiliser. They are ideal for golf course turf.

Rough is let grow during the summer but is cut, scarified, collected and brought away during the autumn, so when it grows again the following year it is more wispy and less dense.

That said, the staff numbers on your average links is probably higher than that of most parklands. The time saved is put into other maintenance procedures. Aeration, topdressing, returfing areas, bunker maintenance etc.

Is it easier and cheaper? It can be but often these well known links courses are maintained to a very high standard. Portmarnock for instance.

shane0007

Hi Fescue, thank you for your contributions, they are excellent.

My question is about bunkers. Is it difficult to achieve great bunkers, difficult to maintain & expensive?
My home course is in the top 100, an excellent parkland course with terrific conditions, apart from the bunkers! Absolutely abysmal. Very little sand, rock hard & require fighter pilot precision to pick the ball out of them. Forget about thinking splash as the wedge would be likely to bounce back & hit you in the forehead!
So they are now talking about doing something with them this winter. Club is cash rich (but with short arms!) so what should we be expecting in your opinion?

GreeBo

shane0007 wrote: »

Hi Fescue, thank you for your contributions, they are excellent.

My question is about bunkers. Is it difficult to achieve great bunkers, difficult to maintain & expensive?
My home course is in the top 100, an excellent parkland course with terrific conditions, apart from the bunkers! Absolutely abysmal. Very little sand, rock hard & require fighter pilot precision to pick the ball out of them. Forget about thinking splash as the wedge would be likely to bounce back & hit you in the forehead!
So they are now talking about doing something with them this winter. Club is cash rich (but with short arms!) so what should we be expecting in your opinion?

When were they last redone?
Every ten years or so a bunker needs to be rebuilt. All the drainage will eventually fill up with the fine sand and get blocked, leading to flooding and compaction. There is only so much that raking can do.
So, if its been anywhere near ten years chances are they need to be totally redone, its natural, a bunker cant and wont last forever.

shane0007

I've no idea. I'm only completing my 2nd year as a member there. I used to enjoy my bunker play until I joined there.
They all seem to be in the same terrible condition throughout the course.

Webbs

shane0007 wrote: »

I've no idea. I'm only completing my 2nd year as a member there. I used to enjoy my bunker play until I joined there.
They all seem to be in the same terrible condition throughout the course.

Dont want to go off topic too much but there is an argument that a bunker is a hazard and as such you sow what you reap by being in them. As long as they arent dangerous (big rocks etc) and raked then we have to get on with it. Again a lot to be said for not watching sky sports!

First Up

Great thread Fescue.

I'd welcome your comments on drainage, which I think is going to become a bigger and bigger issue as our winter weather is predicted to get wetter and wetter. There is huge variation between courses and I assume this is due to some combination of the terrain and the amount of artificial drainage installed.

There are courses that drain superbly well and courses that get mucky around October and stay that way until the following May. Of course any course will flood for a short time in a deluge but a good course will clear in a few hours, whereas a bad one will be closed for days.

What should we expect from a properly constructed and maintained parkland course? I see some people being very philosophical and accepting about bad course conditions but I really think they are selling themselves short. I think it can be done properly with the right investment.

soundsham

where should a rake be placed, inside or outside a bunker ?

josie19

soundsham wrote: »

where should a rake be placed, inside or outside a bunker ?

Not sure if that question is for a greenkeeper but from a player's perspective I think the rake should always be left in the middle of the bunker. Rakes left outside can interfere and stop balls going into bunkers and rakes left barely inside the bunker leave players with very difficult downhill lies. A rake in the middle of a bunker has little impact on the finishing position of the ball.

First Up

josie19 wrote: »

Not sure if that question is for a greenkeeper but from a player's perspective I think the rake should always be left in the middle of the bunker. Rakes left outside can interfere and stop balls going into bunkers and rakes left barely inside the bunker leave players with very difficult downhill lies. A rake in the middle of a bunker has little impact on the finishing position of the ball.

Agree, although the R & A apparently recommends they be left outside. Can't understand that - the rake is part of the bunker. However a rake left where it stops a ball rolling into a natural position is a real nuisance and another example of inconsiderate behaviour. Middle of the bunker every time and rake it after you!

Not a greenkeeper issue though.

Dbu

Good thread,
Question for ya,
Is it just my opinion or were greens in better condition when we were allowed to wear spikes in our shoes?
cheers

PARlance

josie19 wrote: »

A rake in the middle of a bunker has little impact on the finishing position of the ball.

First Up wrote: »

Middle of the bunker every time and rake it after you!

How do you get the rake into the middle of the bunker? Throw it in or walk out after placing it?
I am aware that in some small bunkers you could place it in the middle from outside the bunker but for the majority of bunkers in my place (and I would consider the bunkers to be smaller than average) you wouldn't be able to place it in the middle from the outside.

First Up

PARlance wrote: »

How do you get the rake into the middle of the bunker? Throw it in or walk out after placing it?
I am aware that in some small bunkers you could place it in the middle from outside the bunker but for the majority of bunkers in my place (and I would consider the bunkers to be smaller than average) you wouldn't be able to place it in the middle from the outside.

Anywhere that doesn't stop the ball rolling is OK with me.

soundsham

josie19 wrote: »

Not sure if that question is for a greenkeeper but from a player's perspective I think the rake should always be left in the middle of the bunker. Rakes left outside can interfere and stop balls going into bunkers and rakes left barely inside the bunker leave players with very difficult downhill lies. A rake in the middle of a bunker has little impact on the finishing position of the ball.

The question was for a green keeper
I thought that was the idea of this thread

PARlance

First Up wrote: »

Anywhere that doesn't stop the ball rolling is OK with me.

And if you can't reach such a spot*?

*I assume you mean a place where is less likely to stop a ball rolling, ie a flat area in the bunker, because there has been plenty of times where I've seen ball marks where the ball has run through the middle of the bunker and onto the slope.
This place, that doesn't stop the ball rolling, isn't to be from either inside or outside a bunker.


Overall, I think it's far better to ask players to leave the rake outside the bunker and advise them to place it somewhere where it is least likely to interfere....the "rough hand side".... the side furthest away from the fairway.

There are enough people out there that leave bunkers in a bad state at present, asking people to leave it in the middle of a bunker will only add to the problem in 3 main ways:
1. Rakes being thrown into the middle
2. Lads leaving footprints as they walk out having out (placed it in the middle)
3. Where the middle is out of arms reach, it'll be left on a slope (solving nothing)

First Up

soundsham wrote: »

The question was for a green keeper
I thought that was the idea of this thread

Why would deciding on the placing of rakes be a greenkeeper's responsibility?

First Up

PARlance wrote: »

And if you can't reach such a spot*?

*I assume you mean a place where is less likely to stop a ball rolling, ie a flat area in the bunker, because there has been plenty of times where I've seen ball marks where the ball has run through the middle of the bunker and onto the slope.
This place, that doesn't stop the ball rolling, isn't to be from either inside or outside a bunker.


Overall, I think it's far better to ask players to leave the rake outside the bunker and advise them to place it somewhere where it is least likely to interfere....the "rough hand side".... the side furthest away from the fairway.

There are enough people out there that leave bunkers in a bad state at present, asking people to leave it in the middle of a bunker will only add to the problem in 3 main ways:
1. Rakes being thrown into the middle
2. Lads leaving footprints as they walk out having out (placed it in the middle)
3. Where the middle is out of arms reach, it'll be left on a slope (solving nothing)

Fair points but if players give a bit of thought to how and where they leave rakes, most of the problems would be solved. For example they can be left at right angles to reduce the risk of stopping a ball. A bunker is a hazard and I would prefer if everything to do with the hazard was within it.

When rakes are left outside it is very common to see them left right beside the bunker and parallel, stopping balls from going in. Whatever about taking your chances when in a hazard, course equipment should not interfere with the game any more than necessary.

But the R & A obviously agrees with you, while presumably asking players to be careful where they leave them.

PARlance

First Up wrote: »

Fair points but if players give a bit of thought to how and where they leave rakes, most of the problems would be solved. For example they can be left at right angles to reduce the risk of stopping a ball. A bunker is a hazard and I would prefer if everything to do with the hazard was within it.

When rakes are left outside it is very common to see them left right beside the bunker and parallel, stopping balls from going in. Whatever about taking your chances when in a hazard, course equipment should not interfere with the game any more than necessary.

But the R & A obviously agrees with you, while presumably asking players to be careful where they leave them.

Ya, I think they advise that it's left in the area that will cause the least interference... but that's not really followed so I can see where you're coming from.

Was going to save this for Dragons Den, but I'll pass up this opportunity to make my millions... A rake with a retractable handle, something similar to a ball retriever, but with the ability to retract to a much smaller size would minimise the impact of it stopping balls.
Or failing that, a holder, something akin to the flag stick holder could be positioned at the rough side area of the bunker, meaning that the rake would be placed upright and would be a lesser target.

Really getting into "first world problem" territory here

First Up

PARlance wrote: »

Ya, I think they advise that it's left in the area that will cause the least interference... but that's not really followed so I can see where you're coming from.

Was going to save this for Dragons Den, but I'll pass up this opportunity to make my millions... A rake with a retractable handle, something similar to a ball retriever, but with the ability to retract to a much smaller size would minimise the impact of it stopping balls.
Or failing that, a holder, something akin to the flag stick holder could be positioned at the rough side area of the bunker, meaning that the rake would be placed upright and would be a lesser target.

Really getting into "first world problem" territory here

I've seen devices like that, but I can't remember where... Wasn't in Ireland I'm pretty sure but others may know better.

Of course you would still need people to replace the rakes in them and that's not guaranteed.

josie19

soundsham wrote: »

The question was for a green keeper
I thought that was the idea of this thread

My understanding was this was a discussion forum and not a Q&A session.

Not sure why you think a green keepers view is relevant to your question but I'd be very surprised if he said anywhere outside the bunker. Otherwise he would have to get off the mower and move the rake to cut the grass around each bunker.

We will await Fescue's reply so

blue note

The bunkers are things I often have as issue with. Sometimes the ball splashes out fine, sometimes the sand seems heavily compacted and the club bounces off bit making the ball fly over the green:mad:.

I remember this being an issue long before the bunkers were 10 years old. Could the machines used to rake them be compacting the sand? Is there a procedure that should be taking place to prevent this? It can be very costly shot wise and is infuriating because it's not really the golfers fault!

First Up

josie19 wrote: »

My understanding was this was a discussion forum and not a Q&A session.

Did you notice the title of this thread?

GreeBo

anyone is free to ask or answer any questions on this thread.
the OP has been kind enough to offer their time in answering, but that doesn't prevent anyone else from having an opinion.
let's try to remain civil please.

For Paws

I am under the impression that greenkeepers utilise a machine, which is powered by a PTO shaft from a tractor to agitate bunker sand. I understand GreeBo's point about settlement & compaction but surely the regular use of an 'agitator' would minimise the problem.
Also, is it not the case that the fine 'quartz' sand used in Links and Championship courses is not generally the same sand used in most parkland courses which is more subject to compaction ?

(By 'agitate' I mean move / shake / mix up. Not 'agitate' as in excite or annoy.
Nobody wants an annoyed bunker)