Predicted lambing date

Vandy West

How do you pick a mean lambing date in order to feed sheep? Do you take say two weeks after the ram is let out as the average tipping date or do you track when each ewe is marked?

Conmaicne Mara

New plan for me this year, it may not work like I want it to. I will raddle the ram, with different colours for each week. I also intend to scan, so I will haul in twin bearing ewes earlier than singles. Mine are hill sheep so I will gather them in the hill 4 weeks or so before lambing, maybe sooner if weather is bad. I'll vaccinate all together, given it's shelf life. I'll pick out what got tipped week one and bring them home. Here is the tricky bit. I won't be able to further divide land by then than I have already, so it'll be straight into feeding regime without easing them into it. That may end up being a problem for the sheep. Then I will gather weekly based on colour until all are home - unless some decide to wander when their friends are brought in. Eliminating the over feeding of later lambing ewes hopefully. I intend to have a similar type of system on the go for putting them back to the hill also, first in, first out - dependent on weather, grass at home, and lamb and ewe condition/thrive.

That's the plan for now anyway.

tommy5678

10 days after the ram went in

Vandy West

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

New plan for me this year, it may not work like I want it to. I will raddle the ram, with different colours for each week. I also intend to scan, so I will haul in twin bearing ewes earlier than singles. Mine are hill sheep so I will gather them in the hill 4 weeks or so before lambing, maybe sooner if weather is bad. I'll vaccinate all together, given it's shelf life. I'll pick out what got tipped week one and bring them home. Here is the tricky bit. I won't be able to further divide land by then than I have already, so it'll be straight into feeding regime without easing them into it. That may end up being a problem for the sheep. Then I will gather weekly based on colour until all are home - unless some decide to wander when their friends are brought in. Eliminating the over feeding of later lambing ewes hopefully. I intend to have a similar type of system on the go for putting them back to the hill also, first in, first out - dependent on weather, grass at home, and lamb and ewe condition/thrive.

That's the plan for now anyway.

How long would the marks from the raddle last? Will you bring them in when the rams come out and record the raddle colour for each ewe?

Conmaicne Mara

Vandy West wrote: »

How long would the marks from the raddle last? Will you bring them in when the rams come out and record the raddle colour for each ewe?

Wasn't sure of a ram last year, so I let another in with orange on him. He just tipped the one ewe and the orange was still visible on her at lambing. I mixed the raddle powder with cooking oil.

Yeah, I will check the colours on the 36th day then mark them down against tag numbers just to be safe.

Vandy West

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Wasn't sure of a ram last year, so I let another in with orange on him. He just tipped the one ewe and the orange was still visible on her at lambing. I mixed the raddle powder with cooking oil.

Yeah, I will check the colours on the 36th day then mark them down against tag numbers just to be safe.

Sounds like a good plan will give it a try, thanks.

Conmaicne Mara

Vandy West wrote: »

Sounds like a good plan will give it a try, thanks.

We'll see if it turns out that way or not. I'd rather have an extra division to, say for example, week 3 ewes are coming in, give them a little less than the combined group of week 1 & 2 ewes, then join up week 1,2 & 3 ewes and bring in week 4 ewes into the division where week 3 ewes would have left.

It'll probably turn out to be more work than it's worth :rolleyes:

Cran

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

New plan for me this year, it may not work like I want it to. I will raddle the ram, with different colours for each week. I also intend to scan, so I will haul in twin bearing ewes earlier than singles. Mine are hill sheep so I will gather them in the hill 4 weeks or so before lambing, maybe sooner if weather is bad. I'll vaccinate all together, given it's shelf life. I'll pick out what got tipped week one and bring them home. Here is the tricky bit. I won't be able to further divide land by then than I have already, so it'll be straight into feeding regime without easing them into it. That may end up being a problem for the sheep. Then I will gather weekly based on colour until all are home - unless some decide to wander when their friends are brought in. Eliminating the over feeding of later lambing ewes hopefully. I intend to have a similar type of system on the go for putting them back to the hill also, first in, first out - dependent on weather, grass at home, and lamb and ewe condition/thrive.

That's the plan for now anyway.

This sounds good wish I had the time to implement something similar. I've used the below link to estimate the lambing date for years. Put in the date ram goes out and it gives you a very accurate result, I do use the ram effect though and lamb 90% down in the range given.

http://animalrangeextension.montana.edu/Articles/Sheep/Flock%20Handbook/Gestation.htm

AntrimGlens

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

New plan for me this year, it may not work like I want it to. I will raddle the ram, with different colours for each week.

Con - did you have the rams eating meal before they went out, i'd be hesitant to bring rams in on a weekly basis to change raddles as it probably means you having to bring in the ewes as awell. I try to ensure that rams are meal fed for about six weeks prior to going out, to ensure there is enough protein in the semen and also they are used to coming to the bucket which means not disturbing ewes and upsetting impanted and fertilized eggs. My father evens bollocks me for turning rams up to raddle or pare feet, so i just put a harness on them now and change the crayon at day 16 - i try to avoid being in the field with ewes at tupping if at all possible. no dogs and no bike when i check ewes from now till december.

Username John

We follow the plan outlined by Con above, where we change the raddle every week. This involves bringing in the ewes and rams every week... I'm not sure it makes that much difference really...
But I have only a small flock, and no dog, they are used to being moved so they are never ran anywhere. The only bit of excitement might be catching the rams in the yard, but I'll squeeze em up well. So there won't be any running around inside...

While they are in, I take down the numbers of the ones raddled that week. As regards how long the raddle lasts - I find it's very dependant on the weather, if it's hot, the raddle wil be soft and a lot will come come off. If its cold, not so much...

Edit : Come lambing time, we used to bring them in every week, and bring in the the ewes to lamb the week after (so they were always in a week before they were due, just in case they went early)
But this year I think I will most likely being them all in a week or before the first ones are due, as it's just easier to manage them. It will depend on how I am fixed time wise as much as anything else...

I put the rams in on Saturday. I walked through em yesterday, and I could only see one with yellow raddle on her
Now - the weather here has been bad past few days. With very heavy rain, so that wouldn't have helped.
Also - I re-used old raddle crayons from last year. There was prob 90% of the crayon left, so I thought they'd be fine for the week, but it didn't occur to me that they might have dried out...
Might have been penny wise and pound foolish... :mad:

gazahayes

Username John wrote: »

We follow the plan outlined by Con above, where we change the raddle every week. This involves bringing in the ewes and rams every week... I'm not sure it makes that much difference really...
But I have only a small flock, and no dog, they are used to being moved so they are never ran anywhere. The only bit of excitement might be catching the rams in the yard, but I'll squeeze em up well. So there won't be any running around inside...

While they are in, I take down the numbers of the ones raddled that week. As regards how long the raddle lasts - I find it's very dependant on the weather, if it's hot, the raddle wil be soft and a lot will come come off. If its cold, not so much...

Edit : Come lambing time, we used to bring them in every week, and bring in the the ewes to lamb the week after (so they were always in a week before they were due, just in case they went early)
But this year I think I will most likely being them all in a week or before the first ones are due, as it's just easier to manage them. It will depend on how I am fixed time wise as much as anything else...

I put the rams in on Saturday. I walked through em yesterday, and I could only see one with yellow raddle on her
Now - the weather here has been bad past few days. With very heavy rain, so that wouldn't have helped.
Also - I re-used old raddle crayons from last year. There was prob 90% of the crayon left, so I thought they'd be fine for the week, but it didn't occur to me that they might have dried out...
Might have been penny wise and pound foolish... :mad:

I let mine out after lunch Saturday to 43 exe lambs and up to yesterday evening there was 9 well marked and they were chasing a few more.

razor8

raidex seem to be best crayons i have found this year. I'm sure raddle wont last as long but at least I am sure which one is tipped or not

not sure putting them in causes any problem either if they are used to it. they did some study up the north in a research college about it but unsure what conclusions they came too

Ps let one ram in on saturday evening, he had 9 of 49 tipped at dinner time yesterday

AntrimGlens

I am reluctant to gather ewes in early pregnancy as during the first two weeks after service the embryos float in the womb before attaching themselves to the uterus, thus the reason for minimising stress during this period as minor changes can cause high embryonic deaths.
Razor you are right there was a study done here a good few years back on scotch ewes & cheviot ewes which studied the effect of gathering ewes for footbathing during early prgnancy. There was a 25% reduction in number of lambs at scanning from 1.25 to 1.7 in the batch of ewes that had been brought in for footbathing. I know myself a few years back i had very poor scanning results from when i gathered the ewes to change raddle compared to the batch that the ram hadn't been brought in - could be coincidence but not willing to take the losses again.

keep going

I think abuddy got it done for 60e a load during the "famine".dont know time or distance involved

razor8

AntrimGlens wrote: »

I am reluctant to gather ewes in early pregnancy as during the first two weeks after service the embryos float in the womb before attaching themselves to the uterus, thus the reason for minimising stress during this period as minor changes can cause high embryonic deaths.
Razor you are right there was a study done here a good few years back on scotch ewes & cheviot ewes which studied the effect of gathering ewes for footbathing during early prgnancy. There was a 25% reduction in number of lambs at scanning from 1.25 to 1.7 in the batch of ewes that had been brought in for footbathing. I know myself a few years back i had very poor scanning results from when i gathered the ewes to change raddle compared to the batch that the ram hadn't been brought in - could be coincidence but not willing to take the losses again.

no expert but would imagine there would be a certain number of embryo deaths regardless

how did they calculate reduction on ewes? was it calculated from scanning to lambing or some other way?

AntrimGlens

Agree that there would be a certain number of re-absorptions etc and embryo deaths. They used two sample groups that ran with the same rams and calculated them from conception to scanning, they brought in one group for footbathing and left the others out until scanning time, so the group that they brought in had a reduced percentage of lambs at scanning compared to the group left alone. Now i have to agree it's hard to know what the scanning percentage reduced from as they could have been poorer ewes in one batch than the other or rams didn't give a good serve to ewes in this group and there could be a variety of factors, but this is the thing with stats and figs you can make them read which ever way you want.

razor8

makes you think alright, but not convinced!

tabby aspreme

My calculations for lambing date is 5 months less 5 days, if you put rams in 15 Oct lambing starts 10 Mar.
As regards raddle I mix the powder with gear oil and it stays on the wool till lambing, though have given up on the yellow, now I start with orange and top it up after 3 days second week red and it may last the week as there not as busy, always try to have plenty on them for the third week (blue) to get the second cycle or repeats and so on.
Had intended putting rams out last Friday got a phone call Fri morn from my cousin to apologize for three of her Vendeens had got in the night before and were still in , was pis•••g rain so I left them in till Saturday thinking it would take the pressure of my own lads the only drawback was no raddle on them, split ewes up Saturday and put 2 Texel in with 80 of them ,the two gob****es started pucking each other off the ewes and by Sunday morn had only 4 ewes tipped and were lying down hurt and only two more marked this morning, put two Lleyns in with 120 ewes Saturday and 20 ewes tipped Sunday morning and 10 more this morning and there ignoring each other, may buy another ram tomorrow, the joys of it all !!

flatout11

AntrimGlens wrote: »

Agree that there would be a certain number of re-absorptions etc and embryo deaths. They used two sample groups that ran with the same rams and calculated them from conception to scanning, they brought in one group for footbathing and left the others out until scanning time, so the group that they brought in had a reduced percentage of lambs at scanning compared to the group left alone. Now i have to agree it's hard to know what the scanning percentage reduced from as they could have been poorer ewes in one batch than the other or rams didn't give a good serve to ewes in this group and there could be a variety of factors, but this is the thing with stats and figs you can make them read which ever way you want.

do you have a link to the study as the results would be at odds witht he physlogical causes of embryo loss - the 'stress' caused by gathering for footbathing wouldnt be sufficirent to elicit that kind of response,
to be honest we move the ewes, footbath them etc. during mating never had an issue - rather foothbath the lamsb ones than leabve them go for 4 to 5 weeks untreated!!!

Conmaicne Mara

AntrimGlens wrote: »

Con - did you have the rams eating meal before they went out, i'd be hesitant to bring rams in on a weekly basis to change raddles as it probably means you having to bring in the ewes as awell. I try to ensure that rams are meal fed for about six weeks prior to going out, to ensure there is enough protein in the semen and also they are used to coming to the bucket which means not disturbing ewes and upsetting impanted and fertilized eggs. My father evens bollocks me for turning rams up to raddle or pare feet, so i just put a harness on them now and change the crayon at day 16 - i try to avoid being in the field with ewes at tupping if at all possible. no dogs and no bike when i check ewes from now till december.

Yes, he was eating last year and he's eating now. However, when let to the ewes last year he wouldn't even look in my direction, bag or not, so it'll be gently does it with the dog if it's a repeat performance this year.

I had intended to let him out today, but events have conspired against me and I'm at other things for a few days.

eire23

flatout11 wrote: »

do you have a link to the study as the results would be at odds witht he physlogical causes of embryo loss - the 'stress' caused by gathering for footbathing wouldnt be sufficirent to elicit that kind of response,
to be honest we move the ewes, footbath them etc. during mating never had an issue - rather foothbath the lamsb ones than leabve them go for 4 to 5 weeks untreated!!!

I would agree with ya flatout, no point in leaving lame ones untreated as the likes of scald will onlyo turn into footrot. We would footbath routinely even when the ram is out and tbh i dont see a problem with it

AntrimGlens

flatout11 wrote: »

do you have a link to the study as the results would be at odds witht he physlogical causes of embryo loss - the 'stress' caused by gathering for footbathing wouldnt be sufficirent to elicit that kind of response,
to be honest we move the ewes, footbath them etc. during mating never had an issue - rather foothbath the lamsb ones than leabve them go for 4 to 5 weeks untreated!!!

Each to their own i suppose, but i think when they use the word stress i would think that ewes rising on top of each other and ewes bumping heads into others sides would be sufficient stress to displace a floating embryo!

eire23

Cheers for that link aintrim, alot of intresting reading.
last year our early ones scanned 2.1 and these would have been foottbathed, ram brought in to change raddle etc but like ya say each to their own!

Conmaicne Mara

Concur with Eire23, it is an interesting read, I had a quick look through it while the kids were in swimming. I didn't get around to all of it yet mind. I'll see through my plan this year and see what if any changes to flock at lambing. Pretty much the same sheep, I might actually throw out some buckets again this year. Mart and discussions after it gave food for thought.

Conmaicne Mara

"Goats should be permanently kept away from any areas where sheep may graze. Apart
from risk from infectious diseases, goats are one of the main causes of the spread of
resistance to wormers."

I didn't know that. Takes the shine off the nanny goat raising pet lambs a bit.

flatout11

AntrimGlens wrote: »

Each to their own i suppose, but i think when they use the word stress i would think that ewes rising on top of each other and ewes bumping heads into others sides would be sufficient stress to displace a floating embryo!

to be honest they make it sound like a glass shell thats going to crack....
embryos dont - displace quite like that - and they dont crack either the doc attached is interesting (thanks for finding it) but the author is a little (or quite a lot) of kilter
in reality the embryo is only free floating from days 4 to 16 approx (devoleplmental stage embryo) from day 16 onward it adhearsd to the lining of the uterus
the 'main' causes of embryo loss are related to the hormonal and enviromental(within the uterus) conditions experienced during this period - not dissimilar to the causes of embryo mortality in a cow

flatout11

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

"Goats should be permanently kept away from any areas where sheep may graze. Apart
from risk from infectious diseases, goats are one of the main causes of the spread of
resistance to wormers."

I didn't know that. Takes the shine off the nanny goat raising pet lambs a bit.

and just to rescue the poor nanny goat - i thought improper usage of wormers and lack of quarentine measures on farms was the main cause of resistance to wormers...