Kenny declares war on welfare culture

Geuze

Padraig Mor wrote: »

The banks, NAMA, etc only account for a small portion of Ireland's debt. The vast majority of Ireland's deficit and national debt is due to the massive public spending, two thirds of which goes on welfare and public pay. Cretins indeed....

The 60-65bn cost of the banking crisis is not that small a fraction of our 200bn-odd public debt.

It's 30%-35% of our public debt.

Our interest bill on the public debt is massively increased due to the banking crisis.

Geuze

who_ru wrote: »

why doesn't Edna & co focus more on reducing the crippling cost of living in Ireland rather than focusing all efforts on slashing public services across the board.

also this is the same Edna that had no moral problem in targeting, in many cases, people with severe mental and physical disabilities for serious cuts last year, while not contemplating an increase in tax for the highest earners above 100K.

There have been income tax increases for all earners, and especially higher earners.

First, the PRSI ceiling was abolished. Previously, PRSI stopped at 75k. Now you pay 4% PRSI on all wages.

Next, the health and income levies were combined into the USC, and increased.

Previously, the two levies were 1 + 2 = 3%
Now, top rate of USC = 7%.

Geuze

July Rain wrote: »

With all the tax credits people don't really people 50pc tax at 32,800

Correct, their average or effective tax rate is not 52%, that's true.

But their MARGINAL tax rate is 52%, on any extra earnings.

keeponhurling

Big Mouth wrote: »

Why would you bother? :eek: Well thanks for proving my point, if people weren't so comfortable not working then they might be bothered. Jesus your attitude is unreal, so you would agree with someone collecting the dole saying that they didn't take up a job because the pay was marginal!! Crazy Place

I think this is what Enda is getting at, the in-built deterrant to work.

Whether he actually changes anything, we'll wait and see.

imitation

Big Mouth wrote: »

Slightly off topic but an English colleague of mine remarked that Irish people are always very quick to tell you what they CAN'T do whereas in England you will get people who will work 12 hours a day 7 days a week over Christmas for 6 quid an hour (I'm not saying anyone is asked to work remotely those kind of hours just that in the UK they WANT to keep grafting , earning and are happy to get the 6 quid an hour)

I believe our system holds back peoples potential as if people were pushed to work that bit more then they might get involved and learn an industry and excel in the company or go on to do their own thing, nothing beats experience in life.

Ah thats a load of cobbles, I have met plenty of lazy english workers too, most of my irish retail friends worked those hours last year and will work them again. They werent particularly happy though because they can see it will be the same crap every year unless they get out. I cant see any english person whos done it more than 3 times thinking the same. People who graft for ages are the most likey to burn out and decide to jack it in imo.

Sleepy

creep wrote: »

That has nothing to do with the schools and colleges been back no?

There's always an increase in traffic during school term but it doesn't tend to be M50 based (as most of the schools are in the suburbs). While last year it took an average of 45 minutes for me to get to work, it's taking around 55 minutes this year and that's after leaving 10 minutes earlier which would have knocked 5/10 minutes off my travel time any of the previous years.

Towards the end of the summer my commute time had crept up to around 35/40 minutes whereas previously it would have been 30 minutes or less outside of school hours.

There's still plenty of unemployment in Dublin but I'd wager a large percentage of it is the unemployables who were claiming during the boom and those who did unskilled or low skilled work then that haven't made a meaningful effort to retrain since. Those with marketable skills are finding work here. Not at the rates they might have enjoyed in the past or with as short gaps between contracts / positions but I can't believe they're making up any meaningful percentage of the long-term unemployed in Dublin.

creedp

professore wrote: »

Crippling cost of living in part due to the high level of welfare payments in this country. It drives everything else up in price (rents, wages etc.). Other reason is the protected public sector and the professional classes still charging Celtic Tiger prices. Bus and train fares to increase 10% again?? You're having a laugh. What private sector company could get away with that?

I use a private bus company to comute to work which last year put up it weekly ticket by 20% .. increased fuel and wage costs the reason for this valid increase.

bobbysands81

Elephant Man from china wrote: »

It was great to read an article like this.. Enda wants to do this but is being held back the scrounger supporting communists he is in coalition with.

I thought all the communists and fascists were in the Blueshirts not Labour?

fliball123

who_ru wrote: »

Correct - i went to the dentist a while back, was in the chair for approx 20mins, got a cleaning, polishing and other bits. no fillings, extractions, or any other work.

150 euro.

i was shocked to say the least.

Welfare is not just dole payments either, child benefit is in the welfare budget as well as a host of other benefits, i mean we were handing out millions to people to kit their kids out for communion!!

as someone said on the radio the other day, the only money left in the public health sector soon will be to pay employees only, nothing for patients or care.

What a situation.

Shop around smiles do that for 60 Euros

fliball123

Tracy Alman wrote: »

I agree it is for another thread, but it makes my blood boil when I see/read attacks on the very people who had nothing to do with the present situation. The Gov. does this deliberately to deflect attention and all the Posters swallow it hook line and sinker

How have they not played a significant part in this...20 billion a year goes out on welfare and thats this years bill before cuts so your talking over the last decade we have paid out the guts of about 180 odd billion in welfare...So as angry as you are try not to deflect ..Welfare is the biggest spend this state has and unfortunately it needs to be tackled

fliball123

who_ru wrote: »

i wouldn't regard 64 billion as a small portion of anything, some estimates indicate a higher cost of 70+ billion euro.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bank-bailout-cost-of-73bn-manageable-says-esri-26649376.html

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/70bn-the-total-cost-to-the-taxpayer-of-the-bank-bailout-but-bondholders-will-pay-nothing-150015.html

Sorry but the other poster is right it is a smaller proportion to what we owe for borrowing for paying overly high welfare and public sector pay and pensions..We are over 200 billion in debt...so 200 - 64 = 136 billion that is how much we have borrowed for welfare and ps pay and pensions.

Remember the other side of this coin is how much the mule in the field the gob-daws that are working are suffering due to over taxation..

I mean I have a niece on the dole 18 already has one kid , she has been handed everything, due to not being married she does not have to put the fathers name on the birth cert..so she gets dole, childs allowance, rent allowence, buggys , prams, free creche care if she bothered her bum to go on a course so she gets the feckin works..she gets 100 euros off the kids father a week which is under the table and she is already thinking about having number 2.

Now compare that to me I am married in my late 30s have one little fella both of us worked pretty much all of our lifes since 15 and would dearly love another kid but with creche fees and with the levels of tax I am paying I cant afford another...

So for anyone giving the bleeding heart story...you will get my sympathy when you can figure out why a girl of 18 who will probably never work ( I hope I am proven wrong) is financially in a better position to have a 2nd kid than I am ?

until anomalies like this and others such as people getting more money on the dole than if they worked full time are addressed then those on social welfare have no moral position to ask the tax payer to pay more to keep them in the lifestyle they are in

tomdempsey200

sounds suspiciously like the the 'war on terror' and the 'war on drugs'

where the politicians target the victims

Geuze

I fully agree with your points.

Welfare anomalies like this must be reformed. No 18-year-old should be in this situation. OK, we can't allow any child to suffer, but we can imagine a different system.



But the banking crisis did cost us a lot.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

I fully agree with your points.

Welfare anomalies like this must be reformed. No 18-year-old should be in this situation. OK, we can't allow any child to suffer, but we can imagine a different system.



But the banking crisis did cost us a lot.

I am not saying that the banking crisis didnt cost us a bundle..but the idea that people on welfare can sit and point a finger at it as the main reason why we are borrowing a billion a month and over 200 billion in debt is wrong..It is part of the reason but the bigger part is what we paid out in welfare and ps pay and pensions over the last decade or so...

So in fairness it all should be tackled I hope the government are working toward an end to payments on the Promissory notes which save a fair bit..but just pointing at that and saying leave the welfare system alone is wrong..

I know your not saying this but others are.

tayto lover

Big Mouth wrote: »

Can't mention that around here . The German system sounds very good as expected. Our main problem is the welfare trap of people being afraid to take temporary or part time employment.

God love people who are on the dole and desperate to work as that must be a hard situation, however there are so many in the comfort zone of welfare. I'm involved in a company trying to hire seasonal staff for retail and we cannot fill the positions (our requirements are for the person to have some enthusiasm, common sense and ability to work weekends).

Fair enough its only temporary work so not that appealing but when the odd person we can persuade to take up the work is asked have you any friends or family who might like to work here the answer is always NO, too much effort to sort out dole stuff

Slightly off topic but an English colleague of mine remarked that Irish people are always very quick to tell you what they CAN'T do whereas in England you will get people who will work 12 hours a day 7 days a week over Christmas for 6 quid an hour (I'm not saying anyone is asked to work remotely those kind of hours just that in the UK they WANT to keep grafting , earning and are happy to get the 6 quid an hour)

I believe our system holds back peoples potential as if people were pushed to work that bit more then they might get involved and learn an industry and excel in the company or go on to do their own thing, nothing beats experience in life.

6 quid an hour in England would go a lot further than 8 euro would here. Try visiting a doctor or buying medicine on that.

tayto lover

sarumite wrote: »

So what you mean is that you would support reducing the dole as long as the government gave everyone part time employment. If a person is working for money, then they are employed. As employed workers they would need to have other rights such as pensions, collective bargaining, annual leave entitlements etc.

No I never mentioned cutting the rates of dole.
Just that they should do some kind of work for it.

FTA69

tayto lover wrote: »

6 quid an hour would go a lot further than 8 euro would here. Try visiting a doctor or buying medicine on that.

You also pay tax on minimum wage in Britain whereas you don't in Ireland. Similarly someone working full time for minimum wage is often classed as being below the poverty line and is eligible for working-tax credit due to the fact they can't live on that salary. Working Tax Credit is the single most prolific welfare payment in Britain, a state where the vast majority of those claiming are actually in work.

The minimum wage in the UK is far too low as it is.

Idbatterim

I took a read of the below article last night, its worth a read, it only lets me copy and paste so much though, so go to link for the full article...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2052749/Our-Shameless-society-How-welfare-state-created-age-entitlement.html

JOHN HUMPHRYS: How our welfare system has created an age of entitlement

When Sir William Beveridge wrote his report 70 years ago arguing for the creation for the welfare state he wanted to give the poor a hand up from the grim life they faced. But a dependency culture has since emerged which provokes fury among politicians and public alike. So is the nation ready for change?
Are we on the brink of another welfare revolution? In this thought-provoking article BBC Radio 4 presenter JOHN HUMPHRYS talks to those affected and examines the solutions on offer
The writing is spidery, the occasional ink blob suggesting an old steel nib that had seen better days, and the grey unlined paper might have been ripped out of a cheap notepad. The title is uninspiring too: 'Social Insurance and Allied Services'. This could be the work of a rather sloppy civil servant, too junior to qualify for a secretary of his own, jotting down a few thoughts that might one day impress his boss.
But when I took it from its dog-eared folder I felt like a Shakespearean scholar might feel handling a rare first folio. Of all the documents stored away in the library of the London School of Economics, none has had a greater impact on the way we live our lives than this. There is scarcely a soul born in this country over the last 70 years whose life has not been affected, one way or another, by what resulted from this scruffy piece of paper.
When it was officially published a year after these original scribblings it had a slightly snappier title: The Beveridge Report. Its author, Sir William Beveridge, had said he wanted a revolution and that’s what he got: the creation of the welfare state. What, I wondered as I scanned the yellowing pages, would the great man have made of the way his revolution turned out.

His ambition was immense: to slay what he called the five evil giants of society. Want. Disease. Ignorance. Squalor. Idleness. The first four may not have been slain but, given how grim life had become in post-war Britain for all but the privileged few, their malign power has faded. It’s the fifth he’d have a problem with today and the great irony is that so many people believe that it was his own creation at least partly to blame.
Idleness takes two forms today, one enforced and the other voluntary. One is the result of unemployment made worse by recession, spending cutbacks, growing competition from abroad and a dozen other economic factors. The other is the predictable effect of a dependency culture that has grown steadily over the past years. A sense of entitlement. A sense that the State owes us a living. A sense that not only is it possible to get something for nothing but that we have a right to do so. This, seventy years on from the Beveridge Report, is the charge many people level against it.
I have spent the past year making a documentary for BBC2 in which I have tried to deal with that charge. In the process I have talked to people who are desperate for a job – any job - and to people for whom idleness is a lifestyle choice and are quite happy to admit to it. I have talked to assorted academics who have studied the subject for decades and arrived at entirely contradictory conclusions. I have been to the United States, where they had their own welfare revolution a few years ago, and have witnessed some of its outcomes in the soup kitchens of Manhattan. And we commissioned our own opinion poll to test the mood of the nation. Do we still want the benefits system that the welfare state has spawned and if not … why not?

Inevitably our opinions (our prejudices maybe) are influenced by our childhood. I was born in a working class district of Cardiff called Splott. My father was a self-employed French polisher and my mother had been a hairdresser and still managed to do the odd home perm in our kitchen for friends and neighbours in between bringing up five children. We were often broke but probably neither much better off nor worse off than most other families in the street. All the parents seemed to work just as hard as my own – with one exception. The father in question had lots of children and no job and nor did he seem to want one. He was happy living on the dole. Because of that he was treated with contempt.
That was more than half a century ago. When I went back to my old neighbourhood we found others like him. In the words of an old lady who lived opposite my house when I was born and who lives there still: 'If they can get money without working, they will.' Times have changed, she told me sadly, and the 'pride in working' has gone.
The statistics seem to suggest she may have a point: one in four people of working age in this area are now living on benefits. But maybe that’s because there are no jobs to be had. I went to the nearest job centre, a smart modern building where bright young staff smile a lot and there are plenty of computer terminals to display what’s on offer. Last month there were more than 1,600 jobs advertised in Cardiff.
The centre’s manager Rosemary Gehler agreed with the rather brutal verdict of my ex-neighbour: 'There is undoubtedly less of a stigma to being on benefits and I don’t think anyone would argue with that,' she told me. 'Benefits became fairly easy to access ... too easy probably in some cases… and people taking them didn’t see themselves getting back into work. That situation has built up over the years.'
Back in my old street I talked to Pat Dale, a single mother of seven children. She was most indignant about the 'people who’ve never worked in their life… they don’t even know what a job is'.
So when did she last work? Twenty years ago. The older children don’t have jobs either. The problem, she says, is that the jobs on offer don’t pay enough. 'If I worked for the minimum wage I’d get paid £5.50 right? That means I’d lose out on my rent benefits and I’d be working for nothing. I think it’s disgusting. Honestly it is really, really disgusting.'
Her figures were slightly inaccurate – the national minimum wage is now £6.08 an hour - but she’s right about losing some of her benefits, depending on how many hours she worked. And that’s the problem. I came across it again and again as I travelled around the country.
On a pleasant housing estate outside Middlesbrough I met Steve Brown, as calm and mild-mannered as Ms Dale was defiant and angry - but equally dependent on benefits and equally unapologetic about it. He and his partner live with their three children in a comfortable, rented semi. Their household income is about £20,000 a year without, of course, any deductions for tax. Mr Brown told me that before he could take a job he’d 'have to sit down with them and work it out whether it’s acceptable to go to work or not'.
I suggested that some people who work tor the minimum wage might do so because they reckon working is better than not working. Had he considered that?
'No, no, no… not at all. I just don’t want to be going out to work for forty hours and missing my kids if I’m only going to receive a few quid extra for it, d’you understand? I’d be missing my kids growing up.'
I’m not sure I did understand, but then again I’ve never had to try living on the minimum wage.
There are about 250,000 people in this country today who have been out of work for more than a year and are claiming Job Seekers’ Allowance (JSA). The total number of unemployed is now 2.57m. But that’s only the half of it. Literally. There are another 2.5m people who do not work and claim sickness benefits of one sort or another.
That figure was much smaller until governments in the Eighties set about hacking back the number of people on the dole by the simple expedient of transferring vast numbers of them onto sickness benefits. So the dole queues grew smaller and the number of people on the sick went through the roof. Now it works out at roughly one in eleven of the entire UK labour force.


His ambition was immense: to slay what he called the five evil giants of society. Want. Disease. Ignorance. Squalor. Idleness. The first four may not have been slain but, given how grim life had become in post-war Britain for all but the privileged few, their malign power has faded. It’s the fifth he’d have a problem with today and the great irony is that so many people believe that it was his own creation at least partly to blame.
Idleness takes two forms today, one enforced and the other voluntary. One is the result of unemployment made worse by recession, spending cutbacks, growing competition from abroad and a dozen other economic factors. The other is the predictable effect of a dependency culture that has grown steadily over the past years. A sense of entitlement. A sense that the State owes us a living. A sense that not only is it possible to get something for nothing but that we have a right to do so. This, seventy years on from the Beveridge Report, is the charge many people level against it.
I have spent the past year making a documentary for BBC2 in which I have tried to deal with that charge. In the process I have talked to people who are desperate for a job – any job - and to people for whom idleness is a lifestyle choice and are quite happy to admit to it. I have talked to assorted academics who have studied the subject for decades and arrived at entirely contradictory conclusions. I have been to the United States, where they had their own welfare revolution a few years ago, and have witnessed some of its outcomes in the soup kitchens of Manhattan. And we commissioned our own opinion poll to test the mood of the nation. Do we still want the benefits system that the welfare state has spawned and if not … why not?

Idbatterim

can I just say in relation to britain, your are effectively far better off here as low paid or unemployed, their slightly reduced cost of living, is matched by a seriously reduced minimum wage and welfare "entitlements"...

In terms of the solution to the welfare state, in theory they are very straight forward, in practice its the game of politics that makes it problematic...

I think I read it in that article and I have said it here before, it is the politicians and decision makers allowing this sham, they are responsible for it! When you have the party of waste and wasters in as part of the coalition, what can you expect though, seriously disappointed that FG didnt get an overall majority (it would have been very interesting to see what they would have done, without being hamstrung), the other parties from what I can see, are all happy to continue as we are...

creedp

fliball123 wrote: »

Sorry but the other poster is right it is a smaller proportion to what we owe for borrowing for paying overly high welfare and public sector pay and pensions..We are over 200 billion in debt...so 200 - 64 = 136 billion that is how much we have borrowed for welfare and ps pay and pensions.

Remember the other side of this coin is how much the mule in the field the gob-daws that are working are suffering due to over taxation..

I mean I have a niece on the dole 18 already has one kid , she has been handed everything, due to not being married she does not have to put the fathers name on the birth cert..so she gets dole, childs allowance, rent allowence, buggys , prams, free creche care if she bothered her bum to go on a course so she gets the feckin works..she gets 100 euros off the kids father a week which is under the table and she is already thinking about having number 2.

Now compare that to me I am married in my late 30s have one little fella both of us worked pretty much all of our lifes since 15 and would dearly love another kid but with creche fees and with the levels of tax I am paying I cant afford another...

So for anyone giving the bleeding heart story...you will get my sympathy when you can figure out why a girl of 18 who will probably never work ( I hope I am proven wrong) is financially in a better position to have a 2nd kid than I am ?

until anomalies like this and others such as people getting more money on the dole than if they worked full time are addressed then those on social welfare have no moral position to ask the tax payer to pay more to keep them in the lifestyle they are in

If many people had their way you would lose the child benefit as well .. I mean you can afford to unlike those on low pay and the unemployed!

fliball123

creedp wrote: »

If many people had their way you would lose the child benefit as well .. I mean you can afford to unlike those on low pay and the unemployed!

How can I afford to? Do you know my circumstances? I have no truck losing my childrens allowance providing I dont have to pay for anyone elses children.. that would be a fair way of doing it..So instead of the billions paid out in childrens allowance use that amount to cut taxes and stop incentivising people to have children on the tax payers dime while the tax payer cant afford to have their own

creedp

fliball123 wrote: »

How can I afford to? Do you know my circumstances? I have no truck losing my childrens allowance providing I dont have to pay for anyone elses children.. that would be a fair way of doing it..So instead of the billions paid out in childrens allowance use that amount to cut taxes and stop incentivising people to have children on the tax payers dime while the tax payer cant afford to have their own

Ah c'mon do you not smell the sarcasm? My point was simply this and many other threads which call for SW reform have taxing and means testing child benefit on top of their agenda. Its a terrible thing that middle class kids get the child benefit and Mammy spends it on lattes and fueling her X5!

To answer your question I don't know your circumstances and so wouldn't presume to be in a position to direct what benefits you should not be entitled to .. doesn't stop others using bar stool economics and reforms calling for it though.

Red Crow

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

sounds suspiciously like the the 'war on terror' and the 'war on drugs'

where the politicians target the victims

By victims do you mean burdens on the state?

fliball123

creedp wrote: »

Ah c'mon do you not smell the sarcasm? My point was simply this and many other threads which call for SW reform have taxing and means testing child benefit on top of their agenda. Its a terrible thing that middle class kids get the child benefit and Mammy spends it on lattes and fueling her X5!

To answer your question I don't know your circumstances and so wouldn't presume to be in a position to direct what benefits you should not be entitled to .. doesn't stop others using bar stool economics and reforms calling for it though.

sorry for jumping the gun and yeah the stench of sarcasm is coming over after re-reading

Childrens benefit should be scrapped and things such as vouchers for clothes, food , school books, a creche fee allowance and free medical care (already brought in for under 5s) should be the way forward as you say the money is not actually going on the kid..If it was made that it had to be spent on the kid it would be a hell of a lot better

FTA69

Big Mouth wrote: »

Slightly off topic but an English colleague of mine remarked that Irish people are always very quick to tell you what they CAN'T do whereas in England you will get people who will work 12 hours a day 7 days a week over Christmas for 6 quid an hour (I'm not saying anyone is asked to work remotely those kind of hours just that in the UK they WANT to keep grafting , earning and are happy to get the 6 quid an hour)

Total rubbish. Irish people are no more lazy then their English counterparts.

http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2013/10/the-war-on-youth-2-those-lazy-lazy-kids.html

As this graph shows above, when jobs were available Irish young people had some of the highest levels of employment in Europe and also worked more hours than most of their European counterparts. Irish young people are not at all lazy. The problem here is the complete lack of jobs out there, there are multiple applicants looking for every one vacancy out there. That is the core problem in Ireland today.

As evidenced by this right-wing w*nk-fest of a thread however, people feel far more comfortable blaming the unemployed and pretending that a bout of mass laziness has afflicted the country since 2008.

fliball123

FTA69 wrote: »

Total rubbish. Irish people are no more lazy then their English counterparts.

http://notesonthefront.typepad.com/politicaleconomy/2013/10/the-war-on-youth-2-those-lazy-lazy-kids.html

As this graph shows above, when jobs were available Irish young people had some of the highest levels of employment in Europe and also worked more hours than most of their European counterparts. Irish young people are not at all lazy. The problem here is the complete lack of jobs out there, there are multiple applicants looking for every one vacancy out there. That is the core problem in Ireland today.

As evidenced by this right-wing w*nk-fest of a thread however, people feel far more comfortable blaming the unemployed and pretending that a bout of mass laziness has afflicted the country since 2008.

yeah thats why when you go into the likes of McDonalds, Aldi, Lidl, tesco and the likes of the spar shops there are a very large % of the employees who are non nationals (well this is the case in Dublin in my experience)...The irish youngsters (celtic cubs) who grew up during the boom a lot have a lazy disposition when it comes to work as mammy and daddy were awash with cheap credit and had all that their little hearts desired without so much as making them wash a dish for their new found toys

FTA69

fliball123 wrote: »

yeah thats why when you go into the likes of McDonalds, Aldi, Lidl, tesco and the likes of the spar shops there are a very large % of the employees who are non nationals (well this is the case in Dublin in my experience)...The irish youngsters (celtic cubs) who grew up during the boom a lot have a lazy disposition when it comes to work as mammy and daddy were awash with cheap credit and had all that their little hearts desired without so much as making them wash a dish for their new found toys

As you can see from the proven statistics above (as opposed to anecdotal bullsh*t), Irish young people worked some of the longest in Europe. Longer than young people in the UK and Germany. The notion that Irish people are lazy is fallacious nonsense.

Other statistics also show that there are dozens of applicants for every actual vacancy, and that includes the minimum-wage ones.

fliball123

FTA69 wrote: »

As you can see from the proven statistics above (as opposed to anecdotal bullsh*t), Irish young people worked some of the longest in Europe. Longer than young people in the UK and Germany. The notion that Irish people are lazy is fallacious nonsense.

Other statistics also show that there are dozens of applicants for every actual vacancy, and that includes the minimum-wage ones.

How is it bullsh1t..all you have to do is go into your local aldi / lidl or tesco and have a look around..the people immigrating into Ireland are doing the jobs that the Celtic cubs beneath them..

Sleepy

In fairness, your statistics are from the Celtic Tiger era when young unskilled workers were earning insane levels of income on the sites etc. I think the problem has more to do with lack of motivation than inate laziness...

jank

Correct, the stats are almost 8 years old and I would take anything from UNITE with a vat of salt.

imitation

fliball123 wrote: »

How is it bullsh1t..all you have to do is go into your local aldi / lidl or tesco and have a look around..the people immigrating into Ireland are doing the jobs that the Celtic cubs beneath them..

Its more self deprication, just because we now have foreign nationals working here in significant numbers doesnt mean irish youth are lazy as a whole. Last few students i met on work placement kept over there part jobs during there placement, effectively keeping a 10-15 hr job on top of a 40 paid job, not what I would call a celtic cub, Which is just another boring david mcwilliams sterotype made up to appeal to typical irish begrudgery.

fliball123

imitation wrote: »

Its more self deprication, just because we now have foreign nationals working here in significant numbers doesnt mean irish youth are lazy as a whole. Last few students i met on work placement kept over there part jobs during there placement, effectively keeping a 10-15 hr job on top of a 40 paid job, not what I would call a celtic cub, Which is just another boring david mcwilliams sterotype made up to appeal to typical irish begrudgery.

Sorry but the ratio of non irish to irish in jobs that I have stated is overwhelmingly populated by non irish citizens. Your stats are 8 years out of date and sample a time when a 18 year old could come out of school and earn 800/900 a week on a construction site..so the stats you have put up are skewed and out of date...As I say go to the less desirable jobs such as burger flipping in Mcdonalds or shelf stacking in aldi and I guarantee you that you will see more foreign nationals than Irish people doing it..Its all there in front of everyone's eyes to see

JoseyMosey

The tide has not turned at all. The numbers actually in employment are lower, the number of part time etc. jobs are up alright, salaries are down, cost of living is higher (and more new 'this is not a tax' taxes on their way), we still have very high unemployment and the only saving grace on the unemployment numbers are the throngs who have left/are still leaving the country. You must live on another planet if you think the tide has turned.

I thought cutting the unemployment for under 25's last week was a clear message - get out of the country.

Oh yes, and ageism at the other end of the scale (older workers) is rife out there.

FTA69

fliball123 wrote: »

How is it bullsh1t..all you have to do is go into your local aldi / lidl or tesco and have a look around..the people immigrating into Ireland are doing the jobs that the Celtic cubs beneath them..

It's bullsh*t because there are hundreds of thousands of people on the live register and not nearly enough jobs to go around. That's the stark reality of the situation. You saying you saw a Pakistani in Spar or a Pole in Aldi, or that you know some lazy people doesn't change that fact. You have no proof to back up your claim bar confirmation-biased anecdote. I worked in the service industry for years and the vast majority of low-paid people I came across were Irish.

The number of people on the live register far outstrips the amount of vacancies, and that's before emigration and JobBridge is factored in. In fact, the latter has led to entry-level jobs actually being sucked out of the economy as companies opt to use free labour instead.

fliball123

JoseyMosey wrote: »

The tide has not turned at all. The numbers actually in employment are lower, the number of part time etc. jobs are up alright, salaries are down, cost of living is higher (and more new 'this is not a tax' taxes on their way), we still have very high unemployment and the only saving grace on the unemployment numbers are the throngs who have left/are still leaving the country. You must live on another planet if you think the tide has turned.

I thought cutting the unemployment for under 25's last week was a clear message - get out of the country.

Oh yes, and ageism at the other end of the scale (older workers) is rife out there.

Hang on the message is we cant afford to have people on the dole expecting the tax payer to fund them to remain on their indefinately..As far as I am aware if your making a genuine effort to get work or to skill up the cuts are not as severe..How long did anyone think we could continue paying out over 20 billion a year on welfare?

fliball123

FTA69 wrote: »

It's bullsh*t because there are hundreds of thousands of people on the live register and not nearly enough jobs to go around. That's the stark reality of the situation. You saying you saw a Pakistani in Spar or a Pole in Aldi, or that you know some lazy people doesn't change that fact. You have no proof to back up your claim bar confirmation-biased anecdote. I worked in the service industry for years and the vast majority of low-paid people I came across were Irish.

The number of people on the live register far outstrips the amount of vacancies, and that's before emigration and JobBridge is factored in. In fact, the latter has led to entry-level jobs actually being sucked out of the economy as companies opt to use free labour instead.

Not just one pakistani or polish person in an aldi but the majority of the lower end jobs in Dublin are populated by non nationals....and to your point of proof..just go have a look around the stores in dublin ..as for the stats offered as the celtic cubs are the hardest workers in Europe..they were 8 years out of date and at a time when an 18 year old could go on a construction site and earn 800/900 euros a week.

Anyways you can argue either way..there are no doubt that there are more people out there than jobs ..I accept that..But on the flip.. There has been many employers who cant get an employee in to work as it doesnt make sense as their welfare entitlements far outweigh what they would earn. Also you have to take into consideration that people working are overpaying in taxes and a cut in the dole is an attempt to start incentivising people taking up jobs even those jobs considered to be undesirable.

FTA69

Sleepy wrote: »

In fairness, your statistics are from the Celtic Tiger era when young unskilled workers were earning insane levels of income on the sites etc. I think the problem has more to do with lack of motivation than inate laziness...

Insane amounts of money? The average wage for a labourer during the boom in Ireland was around €550 for a 45-50 hour week of hard bloody work

Jank,

Correct, the stats are almost 8 years old and I would take anything from UNITE with a vat of salt

The stats are from Eurostat. They weren't compiled by Unite. Similarly the statistics prove what they set out to explain: namely that Irish young people when given the opportunity to work demonstrate themselves able to take up work and also to work some of the longest hours in Europe.

fliball123

FTA69 wrote: »

Insane amounts of money? The average wage for a labourer during the boom in Ireland was around €550 for a 45-50 hour week of hard bloody work

Jank,



The stats are from Eurostat. They weren't compiled by Unite. Similarly the statistics prove what they set out to explain: namely that Irish young people when given the opportunity to work demonstrate themselves able to take up work and also to work some of the longest hours in Europe.

The wage was outrageously high for an 18 year old ..If you compare accross the Eurozone. If such a boom happened again I am sure the dole would empty again if they could earn that much..The problem is when that amount of money is not on offer..

FTA69

fliball123 wrote: »

Not just one pakistani or polish person in an aldi but the majority of the lower end jobs in Dublin are populated by non nationals....and to your point of proof..just go have a look around the stores in dublin

You "having a nose around Dublin" isn't proof of anything. Sorry. It's conjecture and confirmation-bias. How many Irish barstaff do you know? How many Irish waitresses? How many Irish supermarket workers? How many Irish working in coffee shops? I know loads.

..as for the stats offered as the celtic cubs are the hardest workers in Europe..they were 8 years out of date and at a time when an 18 year old could go on a construction site and earn 800/900 euros a week.

Nobody walked into a grand a week job as a labourer.

fliball123

FTA69 wrote: »

fliball123 wrote: »

You "having a nose around Dublin" isn't proof of anything. Sorry. It's conjecture and confirmation-bias. How many Irish barstaff do you know? How many Irish waitresses? How many Irish supermarket workers? How many Irish working in coffee shops? I know loads.



Nobody walked into a grand a week job as a labourer.

What I offer is not proof in itself but its a way for anyone looking at this thread to find out for themselves....Which is more proof than stats 8 years out of date and at a time when an 18 year old could earn more money than a lot of professionals out there....

As for a grand a week I played ball with 2/3 heads who worked on building sites as laborers during the boom and they were earning more than I was and I had a degree and nearly 10 years in the IT industry, these guys were not educated but they were good at what they did and they were coming out with 800 a week with the overtime they were doing.

FTA69

fliball123 wrote: »

The wage was outrageously high for an 18 year old

It was a good wage, no doubt about it. But it was also well earned for the type of work and the context in which it was going on. A massive demand for labour drives up wages.

It is unfortunate however that many young men abandoned vocational training and educational prospects to engage in it however. Still, I wouldn't call someone up at 6am to do hard physical labour "lazy" or a "cub". That sort of language is patronising b*llocks to be honest.

FTA69

fliball123 wrote: »

What I offer is not proof in itself but its a way for anyone looking at this thread to find out for themselves

Conjecture is all it is. Nothing more.

....Which is more proof than stats 8 years out of date and at a time when an 18 year old could earn more money than a lot of professionals out there....

Nobody is stating the stats are recent. The stats are demonstrating that Irish young people work and work hard when jobs are available. There are no jobs now and that's the biggest reason behind unemployment. Laziness isn't an issue and is a crude distraction technique employed by the government.

these guys were not educated but they were good at what they did and they were coming out with 800 a week with the overtime they were doing.

Nobody was getting 20 bucks an hour for labouring unless they were a skilled operative such as a scaffolder or a machine operator etc. You didn't get that wage for mixing cement or carrying blocks.

[-0-]

Can we please stop with this hyperbolic "war" on everything? War on terror, war on drugs, war on welfare culture. It's pathetic.

Back on topic, reform of welfare in Ireland is required. The sooner the better. Unfortunately this comes a bit late in the race. It should have been one of the first items he tackled.

fliball123

FTA69 wrote: »

It was a good wage, no doubt about it. But it was also well earned for the type of work and the context in which it was going on. A massive demand for labour drives up wages.

It is unfortunate however that many young men abandoned vocational training and educational prospects to engage in it however. Still, I wouldn't call someone up at 6am to do hard physical labour "lazy" or a "cub". That sort of language is patronising b*llocks to be honest.

A labourers wage during the boom was very high when compared with the rest of Europe.....I am not trying to be patrionising..Look anyone making a genuine effort to get employment or anyone who had been working and lost their job during the recession should be supported by the state.....but even during the boom there were still people on the dole..anyone not making an effort to find work no matter how trivial or how ever much it pays should have welfare entitlements cut.

Also its all very well and good looking at this from the welfare side..hows the about the tax payer who has to pony up more and more in taxes to pay for welfare?

noodler

[-0-] wrote: »

Can we please stop with this hyperbolic "war" on everything? War on terror, war on drugs, war on welfare culture. It's pathetic.

.

Not sure if it has been mentioned but the OP's title topic is what the Indo had as their fantastical front page headline yesterday.

The Taoiseach's article did not have that title nor did he mention (unless I am missing it) the word "war" anywhere in the piece.

noodler

Tabnabs wrote: »

With all these "welfare traps" eradicated and people back to work, can we expect a reduction in taxes and more of our hard earned money staying in our pay checks?

I wouldn't rule it out in the future.

For the moment, across the board income tax breaks are unlikely for a State borrowing 12bn to fund itself.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

noodler wrote: »

Not sure if it has been mentioned but the OP's title topic is what the Indo had as their fantastical front page headline yesterday.

The Taoiseach's article did not have that title nor did he mention (unless I am missing it) the word "war" anywhere in the piece.

They never do - it's the media presentation that pisses people off.

tayto lover

noodler wrote: »

I wouldn't rule it out in the future.

For the moment, across the board income tax breaks are unlikely for a State borrowing 12bn to fund itself.

Ha Are you mad?
The whole purpose of the exercise is to reduce wages, unemployment benefit, pensions, CB etc not to give tax breaks.
IBEC and ISME will see to that with the politicians help.
The rich must remain rich at all costs especially our costs.

Dampintheattic

noodler wrote: »

Not sure if it has been mentioned but the OP's title topic is what the Indo had as their fantastical front page headline yesterday.

The Taoiseach's article did not have that title nor did he mention (unless I am missing it) the word "war" anywhere in the piece.

He didn't mention "war", in relation to the Seanad.
He still got a "wallop", though:D

[-0-]

noodler wrote: »

Not sure if it has been mentioned but the OP's title topic is what the Indo had as their fantastical front page headline yesterday.

The Taoiseach's article did not have that title nor did he mention (unless I am missing it) the word "war" anywhere in the piece.

Sorry, I should have been clear. I wasn't attacking the OP, I was attacking the shambolic journalism.