Kenny declares war on welfare culture

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

7upfree wrote: »

Ah right. It has nothing to do with lies, deceit, no jobs, the crushing of the PAYE worker, and tax hikes that would make the most hardened autserists blush ? Hard to believe you posted that really.

That happens in a lot of countries.

creep wrote: »

I hope your been sarcastic

The man asked a question, the man got an answer. Not liking the answer doesn't change the answer.

fly_agaric

Godge wrote: »

Some links please......

why should I bother really. People will interpret things the way they want to anyway (e.g. when I see such a small proportion of people paying such a large wedge of the tax take I think of big income skews, & lots of people [who don't want to be] who are unemployed, underemployed, low paid etc; while others might see a massive societal injustice; a mob of freeloaders dragging down the good and the wealthy etc)

For (1)
2011
http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/publications/statistical/2011/income-distribution-statistics.pdf

From that, taking the 'tax cases' part which is artificial
>= 100000 K is roughly 5 % of cases; 24 % of income and 46 % of the tax...

<= 20 K is roughly 36 % of cases, 10 % of income and < 1 % of the tax

Table of Gini coefficients from 2011 puts us in the middle for EU somewhere and close to 'average' so perhaps I exaggerated by saying 'one of the more unequal' What is it now?
http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/submitViewTableAction.do?dvsc=8

2013
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Income_distribution_statistics
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/7/79/At-risk-of-poverty_rate_before_and_after_social_transfers%2C_2011_%281%29_%28%25%29.png

This graphic seems to suggest Ireland's undeserving poor would really be in trouble without their generous social welfare payments! (stacked bar for Ireland sticking out a bit above the others)!

For (2) - I'm tired. maybe you can do it! Irish people definitely want these benefits [suppose question is what are they prepared to pay]??
For (3) - I have no links from the future but these large booms/bubbles and busts tend to be 1 in a generation things (or less frequent)

creep

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That happens in a lot of countries.



The man asked a question, the man got an answer. Not liking the answer doesn't change the answer.

Do you think that every unemployed youth could get a job if they tried?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

creep wrote: »

Do you think that every unemployed youth could get a job if they tried?

No, but how does that fit in with what I wrote?

7upfree

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

That happens in a lot of countries.

Not the way it happened in Ireland. Bondholders placed above the needs of the citizens.

flutered

what has not been mentioned is that the wealthy have access to highly sucessfull accountants and lawyers who can and will get the tax due amounts down, also the wealthy make the laws to suit themselves, take for instance the property tax, how many of the wealthy are required to pay it, our minister for health does not, do coolmore and mcmanus ?, the recent budget for instance, the dept of the t-shock, it got another 300,000 for wage payments and to hire new staff the female lead in this clip got hired, http://www.wimp.com/dublintaxi/, also the budget clamped down on retiremeent pensions, putting a cap on them, the exceptions being, members of the dail, high grade civil servants, including county managers and judges.

Mr. teddywinkles

mariaalice wrote: »

I am not saying you are not right, however short contracts, agency work and less that full hours is not full employment and while a lot are working it is often not on full hours, plus there is starting to be talk of the housing market overheating in Dublin again. That's not solving the unemployment problem.

Have to say I noticed things getting busy in Dublin since statrt of year especially the n7 but it happened all of a sudden. To be honest don't put much confidence in this at all

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

7upfree wrote: »

Not the way it happened in Ireland. Bondholders placed above the needs of the citizens.

My point is that if an emigrant is heading off to the US or Australia for example, two of the most common destinations, seeking a political system that doesn't favour the corporate side of live ahead of the need of the citizens, they haven't researched the topic.

srsly78

flutered wrote: »

what has not been mentioned is that the wealthy have access to highly sucessfull accountants and lawyers who can and will get the tax due amounts down, also the wealthy make the laws to suit themselves, take for instance the property tax, how many of the wealthy are required to pay it, our minister for health does not, do coolmore and mcmanus ?, the recent budget for instance, the dept of the t-shock, it got another 300,000 for wage payments and to hire new staff the female lead in this clip got hired, http://www.wimp.com/dublintaxi/, also the budget clamped down on retiremeent pensions, putting a cap on them, the exceptions being, members of the dail, high grade civil servants, including county managers and judges.

The exemption for ministers means they don't have to pay tax on government buildings (that they hold in their capacity as minister). It has nothing to do with their personal property.

Whiskeyjack

If Kenny wants to fight a war on Welfare Culture he's doing it in a way that's idiotically counter to common sense. Cutting the dole for under 25's, a group which includes the vast majority of College leavers, who are the one group who need it the most to tide them over into the skilled jobs that necessitate the courses they do is just about the stupidest way to fight welfare culture. The "Welfare Culture" mentality settles in for people who have been on the dole a number of years and get used to the lifestyle, i.e. not people who are under 25. Cut the dole for over 25's and couple it with an increase in minimum wage. Why would anyone work a crappy job for barely more than they get for not doing anything?

Idbatterim

If Kenny wants to fight a war on Welfare Culture he's doing it in a way that's idiotically counter to common sense. Cutting the dole for under 25's, a group which includes the vast majority of College leavers, who are the one group who need it the most to tide them over into the skilled jobs that necessitate the courses they do is just about the stupidest way to fight welfare culture. The "Welfare Culture" mentality settles in for people who have been on the dole a number of years and get used to the lifestyle, i.e. not people who are under 25. Cut the dole for over 25's and couple it with an increase in minimum wage. Why would anyone work a crappy job for barely more than they get for not doing anything?

I agree to an extent, but on the other hand, I dont think they should be finishing school, never worked a day in their life and be given E188 which is a very comfy existence, the newer rates are more likely to spur them into action in my opinion, dont even let them get into the "this isnt that bad mentality"...

creep

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree to an extent, but on the other hand, I dont think they should be finishing school, never worked a day in their life and be given E188 which is a very comfy existence, the newer rates are more likely to spur them into action in my opinion, dont even let them get into the "this isnt that bad mentality"...

For under 21's It should be cut down by 20 every two months so in 8 month it will be brought back down 100 if no job has been got. For over 21's it should drop by 20 every six months to 144 euro or something along those lines

Idbatterim

For under 21's It should be cut down by 20 every two months so in 8 month it will be brought back down 100 if no job has been got. For over 21's it should drop by 20 every six months to 144 euro or something along those lines

do you not think to an extent though, this just prolongs potential procrastination?...

The other question is, is E144 too high per week? After a while rates should go down to absolute subsistence in my opinion, which would be in and around €100 per week. Certainly for those who have never contributed, I would use the money saved, amongst other things, to possibly have the rates of recently unemployed at a % of the former wage or similar, again I would do the same for the OAP...

There are far too many here who decide to opt out of contributing anything to society and feed like leeches off the overly generous and soft touch bleeding heart Irish...

Whiskeyjack

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree to an extent, but on the other hand, I dont think they should be finishing school, never worked a day in their life and be given E188 which is a very comfy existence, the newer rates are more likely to spur them into action in my opinion, dont even let them get into the "this isnt that bad mentality"...

My point is they won't settile if their dole gets cut once they hit 25. I think the only real solution is a better implementation of getting proof of seeking employment. Many social welfare offices don't even bother with it.

Xenji

Whiskeyjack wrote: »

My point is they won't settile if their dole gets cut once they hit 25. I think the only real solution is a better implementation of getting proof of seeking employment. Many social welfare offices don't even bother with it.

They don't really bother with it anymore as most businesses do not send out rejection letters or e-mails anymore, my sister sent off about 15 CVs for various JobBridges and none of them got back to her except for one who e-mailed back and all it said was "thanks" on it.

creep

Idbatterim wrote: »

do you not think to an extent though, this just prolongs potential procrastination?...

The other question is, is E144 too high per week? After a while rates should go down to absolute subsistence in my opinion, which would be in and around €100 per week. Certainly for those who have never contributed, I would use the money saved, amongst other things, to possibly have the rates of recently unemployed at a % of the former wage or similar, again I would do the same for the OAP...

There are far too many here who decide to opt out of contributing anything to society and feed like leeches off the overly generous and soft touch bleeding heart Irish...

Its too harsh to cut it down to 100. If the country was booming and the jobs were there then maybe.

Idbatterim

Its too harsh to cut it down to 100. If the country was booming and the jobs were there then maybe.

you dont miss what you have never had... Again it depends on circumstance, even E100 would be more disposable income than many hard working couples would have at the end of the week. With the E100, I am assuming the person is living at home and has no meaningful debts...

creep

Idbatterim wrote: »

you dont miss what you have never had...

Its easy for someome working to say that. I was on the dole for two years before finally getting employment after graduation in a sector that's apparantly booming. The 100 would get you no where.

Idbatterim

Its easy for someome working to say that. I was on the dole for two years before finally getting employment after graduation. The 100 would get you no where.

It will provide you with the bare essentials, you were probably actively looking for work, so didnt need a big incentive to find work i.e. subsistence welfare payments, unfortunately this isnt the case for a sizeable amount of our welfare claimants. The savings from the cuts could be ring-fenced for job creation...

I am speaking from experience with mates, I have some who have never been out of employment, have managed to easily change jobs, get promoted in new roles quickly. I have others who are some of my younger mates admittedly, just living at home, having a great social life at the taxpayers expense, I dont think its good or healthy for anyone...

creep

Idbatterim wrote: »

It will provide you with the bare essentials, you were probably actively looking for work, so didnt need a big incentive to find work i.e. subsistence welfare payments, unfortunately this isnt the case for a sizeable amount of our welfare claimants. The savings from the cuts could be ring-fenced for job creation...

100 a week wouldn't cover electricity. broadband food and heating.

Whiskeyjack

Xenji wrote: »

They don't really bother with it anymore as most businesses do not send out rejection letters or e-mails anymore, my sister sent off about 15 CVs for various JobBridges and none of them got back to her except for one who e-mailed back and all it said was "thanks" on it.

When I was asked for proof they accepted application emails. Plus if you apply via a form online you always get a confirmation mail to say they got your application.

Idbatterim

100 a week wouldn't cover electricity. broadband food and heating.

it would for me (if i had too), broadband is E5 per week, my bi monthly ESB bill comes in at 120 (split between two) and gas would range from nothing for say 6-8 months, to even fairly small amounts when I do have to have the heating on. €100 a week could be done, it would be bloody tight though and there would be none to virtually no luxuries. Please not the E100 suggested is only for the young recently out of school, who have never contributed, living at home...

Whiskeyjack

creep wrote: »

100 a week wouldn't cover electricity. broadband food and heating.

In before "you don't need broadband". You know, cos it's not like the only way to apply for a job now is online.

Xenji

Whiskeyjack wrote: »

When I was asked for proof they accepted application emails. Plus if you apply via a form online you always get a confirmation mail to say they got your application.

That is handy, you could just send out loads of emails to jobs you knew you had no chance of getting if you ran out of jobs that you thought you would get.

Idbatterim

In before "you don't need broadband". You know, cos it's not like the only way to apply for a job now is online.

youll note I omitted that That was one argument route I wasnt bothered going back down Then again a mobile phone these days is essential and any smart phone with data, will have internet access, so is there a need for separate broadband at all...

srsly78

Yes there is a need for broadband. No there is not a need for stupid smartphone data plans which are really bad value and don't even work most of the time.

creep

Broadband is as important as gas or electricity these days especially for people hoping to get employment by sending off 50 CVs a week in a hope they will get a response. Also for people to learn new skills online and been able to reply a response to a company stragiht away before moving onto the next person. Also it stops people from becoming bored which is very important for mental health.

Idbatterim

Broadband is as important as gas or electricity these days especially for people hoping to get employment by sending off 50 CVs a week in a hope they will get a response. Also for people to learn new skills online and been able to reply a response to a company stragiht away before moving onto the next person. Also it stops people from becoming bored which is very important for mental health.

Id tend to agree, I wouldnt dispute this at all...

chopper6

creep wrote: »

Broadband is as important as gas or electricity these days especially for people hoping to get employment by sending off 50 CVs a week in a hope they will get a response. Also for people to learn new skills online and been able to reply a response to a company stragiht away before moving onto the next person. Also it stops people from becoming bored which is very important for mental health.

I'm aware of the irony when i say sitting on the internet all day is pretty far from being good for your mental health.

The best way to send in a CV is to tender it by hand...it shows you've made some sort of effort.

creep

chopper6 wrote: »

I'm aware of the irony when i say sitting on the internet all day is pretty far from being good for your mental health.

The best way to send in a CV is to tender it by hand...it shows you've made some sort of effort.

90% of C.Vs are sent to recruitment companies so not an option. If you are applying for jobs for companies they prefer these days to have it sent in electronically. Just because you hand it on will not make you stand out from the 500 others people applying for the same role. Even in places like Dunnes stores you apply online because they ask you specific questions same with all companies. Any job I applied to for companies ask a ton of questions along with the C,V and cover letter. Obviously small shops and a lot of other roles you would just hand in a C.V. Your C.V will most likely be disgarded if you just hand it on as it means they will have to add you manually to their system. A lot of jobs you have to register an email address with a password on their website

fliball123

creep wrote: »

Broadband is as important as gas or electricity these days especially for people hoping to get employment by sending off 50 CVs a week in a hope they will get a response. Also for people to learn new skills online and been able to reply a response to a company stragiht away before moving onto the next person. Also it stops people from becoming bored which is very important for mental health.

eh sorry there are options to use the internet in Libraries for free..Broadband is not an essential and should not be paid for by the tax payer. People who are not working are being offered an abundant of opportunities to skill up and educate themselves at the tax payers expense so why should they be allowed do it on their own time..If they want to educate themselves they should do it in the constructs of attending classes or course that are available to them.

If people are bored they should get up off their bums and clean the streets, during the summer buy a 2nd hand lawn moher or a bucket of soapy water and a squidgy and clean some windows...

As for the mental health side of it..hows about the importants of 2 people working hard and trying to bring up their kids and not having the same luxuries of broad band as they have mortgage, creche fees and the cost of going to work as well as house hold bills to pay for...Not to mention paying some of the highest rates of tax in the OCED to keep messers on the internet by paying for their broadband...Seeing your money spent so frivolously is not good for their mental health

SupaNova2

Access to internet is important, having a broadband connection in your own home is not a requirement for that. You can still get 50 CV's off in a week using a friends computer or an internet cafe.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

creep

fliball123 wrote: »

eh sorry there are options to use the internet in Libraries for free..Broadband is not an essential and should not be paid for by the tax payer. People who are not working are being offered an abundant of opportunities to skill up and educate themselves at the tax payers expense so why should they be allowed do it on their own time..If they want to educate themselves they should do it in the constructs of attending classes or course that are available to them.

If people are bored they should get up off their bums and clean the streets, during the summer buy a 2nd hand lawn moher or a bucket of soapy water and a squidgy and clean some windows...

As for the mental health side of it..hows about the importants of 2 people working hard and trying to bring up their kids and not having the same luxuries of broad band as they have mortgage, creche fees and the cost of going to work as well as house hold bills to pay for...Not to mention paying some of the highest rates of tax in the OCED to keep messers on the internet by paying for their broadband...Seeing your money spent so frivolously is not good for their mental health

You really have no clue do you how important broadband is especially with people trying to upskill or when trying to get work. All proper courses you will need the internet for not joke FAS ones. Could you run a server or programming software or business suites on a computer in a library. Come back when you realise how important it is.

Could you do a job aptitude test in a library with computers that are 10 years old same as most internet cafes around. Your living in the stone age if you don't realise how important broadband is too people. You try doing a FYP or thesis without the internet at home or an assignment that is due the following day without the internet. Your talking ****e to be honest.

Each to their own I say about the mortgage fees, creche fees etc. It is their problem if they cannot get work. Maybe they should try and upskill and get the internet. The best I.T certs are all available on the internet. They should do some of them and maybe they might get a job.

You can get broadband for 20 quid a month so it is not that much money. But yea in my field it was a necessity and is the same for a lot of the unemployed.

creep

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

50 was a bit of an exaggeration more like 20-25 a week. I spent hours upon hours every day, trying to suit my C.V to the job spec and doing a good cover letter. It took me two years to get a job with a 2.1 computer degree and a masters in software engineering to find a job in a sector that is apparantly booming. They have no interest in people with no expierence but got a job in the end which I am thankful for.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

fliball123

creep wrote: »

You really have no clue do you how important broadband is especially with people trying to upskill or when trying to get work. All proper courses you will need the internet for not joke FAS ones. Could you run a server or programming software or business suites on a computer in a library. Come back when you realise how important it is.

Could you do a job aptitude test in a library with computers that are 10 years old same as most internet cafes around. Your living in the stone age if you don't realise how important broadband is too people. You try doing a FYP or thesis without the internet at home or an assignment that is due the following day without the internet. Your talking ****e to be honest.

Each to their own I say about the mortgage fees, creche fees etc. It is their problem if they cannot get work. Maybe they should try and upskill and get the internet. The best I.T certs are all available on the internet. They should do some of them and maybe they might get a job.

You can get broadband for 20 quid a month so it is not that much money. But yea in my field it was a necessity and is the same for a lot of the unemployed.

And you have no idea how much tax we are paying and people working are struggling to make ends meet.

As I say there is a sh1t load of courses and further education (not just fas) people on the dole are being given the opportunity to go to third level..As for running programming software and the likes on library computers is irrelevent as why should we pay for broadband so that people on the dole can stay in bed till 2 get up do 5 minutes of a course, then have an hour of watching porn and playing games and then download a nice movie to watch for the rest of the evening..Next you will be looking for free popcorn..The only way to get people to really reskill is in a structured environment.

As for you attempt to have a go at the age of the computers in both internet cafes and libraries..I believe and in any that I have used are in decent nick and are fast enough to do aptitude tests...You just do not want the inconvenience of having to get off your hole and go to the library to do and think that because they may be slower than the fastest computer out there that you should get free broadband...

By your definition of what is essential we should pay for top of the line broad band and computers so that those on the dole can apply for jobs and upskill and then pay for Mercs or Porches so that if they get a job interview they will be able to get there really quick. Also any speeding tickets on the way should be quashed..

Your phucking sense of entitlement enrages me..if you want broadband pay for it yourself..I already have the obligation of paying some of the highest rates of ps pay and pensions in the OCED , the highest welfare rates in the OCED along with other allowances such as back to school, rent and fuel allowances as well as forking out for 150k odd medical cards....

All of my tax money is supposed to be getting me a level of service that is in line to what I am paying..but sadly I get no assistance if I or my family get sick, I get no help paying my bills and I am struggling so you will forgive the tone of this but the "we need this and you have to pay for it as we have no money" approach is no longer viable.

As for you each to your own..So is it fair that I pay my creche fees and mortgage fees and the rest and then have more and more taking out of my income in taxation to cover other peoples fees who are on the dole?

What ever happened to working for something and having a bit of pride in yourself

Also 20 quid a month multiplied by the 400k that are on the dole is that not a lot?? really I will let you do the math make sure you use one of those slow library machines as if the result came back to you to quickly it might disturb your 14 hour sleeping pattern

dasa29

fliball123 you are partly right on broadband but spending €20 a month is not that much in the long run to get it 24/7. Now you are right I could get up and go to my local library and use a computer there. Thing is they charge unemployed €1 for each 50 minute session on their computers which works out at €26 a month. This is 6 sessions a week(min) as they are closed Sundays. if the person has a laptop they offer Wi-Fi, but if you are not a library member it costs €5 a year just to use the Wi-Fi.

Also Black and white photocopying and printing are charged at 25 cent per A4 page and 30 cent for A3 pages.

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

To be honest I would almost suggest that the financial aspect is pretty unimportant compared to the social aspect. Looking at kids whose grandparents never worked and they're now dropping out of school to hang around doing nothing is sad to see in way more ways than financial.

It's been said again and again but there needs to be massive overhaul of the training available to the unemployed. I've been offered computer courses in the past which I enquired about and the facilitator knew with 30 seconds of meeting me that it wasn't worth me doing it, such courses are just a way to trim numbers off the register for a while and maybe keep certain people out of mischief. I've seen people drop out of college doing a course when the most advanced thing they did in 12 weeks was use Microsoft word to type some text, not even formatting anything. Yet if they turn it down a lot will be told they're obviously not trying to improve their prospects.

creep

fliball123 wrote: »

And you have no idea how much tax we are paying and people working are struggling to make ends meet.

As I say there is a sh1t load of courses and further education (not just fas) people on the dole are being given the opportunity to go to third level..As for running programming software and the likes on library computers is irrelevent as why should we pay for broadband so that people on the dole can stay in bed till 2 get up do 5 minutes of a course, then have an hour of watching porn and playing games and then download a nice movie to watch for the rest of the evening..Next you will be looking for free popcorn..The only way to get people to really reskill is in a structured environment.

As for you attempt to have a go at the age of the computers in both internet cafes and libraries..I believe and in any that I have used are in decent nick and are fast enough to do aptitude tests...You just do not want the inconvenience of having to get off your hole and go to the library to do and think that because they may be slower than the fastest computer out there that you should get free broadband...

By your definition of what is essential we should pay for top of the line broad band and computers so that those on the dole can apply for jobs and upskill and then pay for Mercs or Porches so that if they get a job interview they will be able to get there really quick. Also any speeding tickets on the way should be quashed..

Your phucking sense of entitlement enrages me..if you want broadband pay for it yourself..I already have the obligation of paying some of the highest rates of ps pay and pensions in the OCED , the highest welfare rates in the OCED along with other allowances such as back to school, rent and fuel allowances as well as forking out for 150k odd medical cards....

All of my tax money is supposed to be getting me a level of service that is in line to what I am paying..but sadly I get no assistance if I or my family get sick, I get no help paying my bills and I am struggling so you will forgive the tone of this but the "we need this and you have to pay for it as we have no money" approach is no longer viable.

As for you each to your own..So is it fair that I pay my creche fees and mortgage fees and the rest and then have more and more taking out of my income in taxation to cover other peoples fees who are on the dole?

What ever happened to working for something and having a bit of pride in yourself

Also 20 quid a month multiplied by the 400k that are on the dole is that not a lot?? really I will let you do the math make sure you use one of those slow library machines as if the result came back to you to quickly it might disturb your 14 hour sleeping pattern

Anyone knows that if you do a course in a structured environment such as springboard broadband is a necessity to have at home. You try and do assignments and study without internet after 9 o'clock and I guarantee you 100% you will fail the course. The work load is unreal these days and without the internet at home after 9PM when the college closes or when the library closes you cannot do assignments, you cannot install custom software you just cannot study or do assingments without it. I remember in my postgraduate I was up till 5AM three or four nights a week trying to get things done and without the internet it would have been impossible. So yes I feel like I should be entilted to the internet. Without I probably would still be on the dole. I work as a programmer earning good money finally so I don't know where you are getting this 14 hour sleeping pattern from.

It really sounds like you have a serious chip on your shoulder against the unemployed and in my opinion it sounds like they should be given 0 euro on the dole. Just sounds to me like you are in a low paid job and struggling to get by and are really pissed off at it. Are you against people upskilling that might get a better job than you? Maybe you should cut off your own broadband. You also have to pay 1 euro an hour to use the computers and anywhere with decent computers its 2 euro an hour so yea everyone needs broadband who are genuinly trying to upskill. I'm sure plenty of people who would love to pay for there own broadband. The way you are talking its simple to get a job and everyone on the dole are wasters. Took me two years in a sector that's apparently booming to land a job. A lot of people are leaving the country as well to find work sure employment is booming. I'm sure everyone on the dole takes "Pride" from been on the dole.

Paulzx

fliball123 wrote: »

And you have no idea how much tax we are paying and people working are struggling to make ends meet.

I think you'll find that creep is well aware of this as he has repeatedly said that he is working.

For some reason you've composed a rant aimed at him which all but says he's some form of bloodsucking deadwood that wasted the taxes you hate paying.

I've no idea what you expect of people if you have a problem with them gaining an education and subsequently using them skills to gain work and become productive members of society. If spending 20 euro a month on broadband assists this well so be it.

The hate seems to be eating you up

Muahahaha

I think Enda's master plan is to force down the dole so much that emigration seems like the only game in town, in that respect he is doing a good job. This is just more FG populism, just like the Seanad referendum was.

I do agree that welfare dependency needs to be addressed but making our young feel like unequal and unvalued citizens is not the way to go about it. They did not cause this mess but Enda wants them to pay for it.

Back in the full employment days of the boom there was around 150,000 people on the dole, many of them permanently. People tend to forget that the extra 300,000 on the dole now actually worked back in the boom and would still be doing so now if economic mismanagement hadn't of swallowed their jobs. So rather than target the young why doesn't Enda grow a set of balls and tackle the permanent residents of the dole offices? And when done with sorting that problem out how about sending the 90,000 who claim disability allowance to a state doctor to assess their fitness to work? It is well known in welfare circles that if you don't want the Department breathing down your neck then getting on the disability is the way to go, once you're on it then all you need to do is submit an annual declaration signed by a GP and your benefits continue- direct into your bank account so it can easily be picked up from any ATM in the world on the Visa network. There has been a surge of disability claims since this recession began, it's pretty obvious that the dole scrounges are one step ahead of the system and several ahead of Enda who instead just goes targeting a group who he knows won't be voting FG anyway.

It's also interesting that FF are keeping quiet on all this, especially as they kow-towed to the welfare class for years, in fact I think the welfare class in themselves are entirely a FF creation. I can see them voting FF in a big way at the next election, even in Dublin.

Jolly Red Giant

Sleepy wrote: »

Unfortunately, the reality is that outside of a communist fantasy or a country with massive income from natural reserves that can be taxed heavily (e.g. Saudi Arabia), a government can only create the climate for the private sector to create jobs.

Since the foundation of the state the Irish economy has been nothing more than a basketcase (with the exception of the bubble that was the Celtic Tiger). The private sector has never created any jobs of consequence. In the 1920s it was state intervention with the building of Ardnacrusha that created the jobs - in the 1930s it was Bord naMona, Aer Lingus and the Sugar Company - in the 1940s Irish Shipping - etc etc

Harry Angstrom

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

So, what do you suggest we do with those who, for one reason or another, do not work? Do you suggest we cut off their social welfare completely? Because you do know that it would most probably lead to them being evicted from their homes, their children being taken into care and the parents becoming homeless. The fact that the unemployment rate was in and around 4% during the boom pretty much means that the vast majority of people were willing to work. A 4% unemployment rate pretty much equates to full employment.
The fact is that most people want to work and are willing to work. Those who fall outside this category cannot necessarily be lumped into a category of "layabouts or malingerers", though it's become fashionable to describe them as such. Put it this way, there weren't too many people from Foxrock or Montenotte making their way to the social welfare office during the boom but there were still plenty from deprived areas doing so. Are we to assume that these people were just "lazy"? Because to do that would be crass and simplistic in the extreme.

Black Swan

MOD NOTE:
WhiteEuropean banned for breach of charter and boards.ie Terms of Use.

hansfrei

Whiskeyjack wrote: »

If Kenny wants to fight a war on Welfare Culture he's doing it in a way that's idiotically counter to common sense. Cutting the dole for under 25's, a group which includes the vast majority of College leavers, who are the one group who need it the most to tide them over into the skilled jobs that necessitate the courses they do is just about the stupidest way to fight welfare culture. The "Welfare Culture" mentality settles in for people who have been on the dole a number of years and get used to the lifestyle, i.e. not people who are under 25. Cut the dole for over 25's and couple it with an increase in minimum wage. Why would anyone work a crappy job for barely more than they get for not doing anything?

Kenny is undermining peoples rights. Or trying to anyway.

Truth is Kenny is so overpaid. The public service pension bill will be the end to this economy. That'll be Endas legacy. When we genuinely needed reforms he refused. He's targeting the future of this country, young people. Replacing them at the same time with foreigners.

Anyone who'd back these actions is a traitor, an idiot or both.

fliball123

dasa29 wrote: »

fliball123 you are partly right on broadband but spending €20 a month is not that much in the long run to get it 24/7. Now you are right I could get up and go to my local library and use a computer there. Thing is they charge unemployed €1 for each 50 minute session on their computers which works out at €26 a month. This is 6 sessions a week(min) as they are closed Sundays. if the person has a laptop they offer Wi-Fi, but if you are not a library member it costs €5 a year just to use the Wi-Fi.

Also Black and white photocopying and printing are charged at 25 cent per A4 page and 30 cent for A3 pages.

Regardless of the hardship of 1 Euro a session the people working at the moment cannot afford 20 Euro a month/week * 400k people on the dole..Its just not viable when we are borrowing 1 billion a month to pay existing commitments and repaying back 200 billion in loans...

We are currently paying one of the highest rates of tax when indirect and direct taxes are taken into account...How much longer are we going to crucify the tax payer in the name of people on the dole..I have no problem supporting someone who is genuinely looking for a job or looking to upskill but there are other options available to them that do not require them having broadband on the tax payers expense and which are less open to abuse such as playing games or watching movies on the tax payers dime

Why dont people on the dole hand deliver there C.V dress in a nice shirt/trousers and present themselves well..Thats how I got my first 2 jobs years ago when I started out.

mariaalice

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Your post is excellent, on this thread and similar I often try and think a balanced view because the replies are often not motivated by what you talk about and about what would be good for society, but by an almost visceral hatred of certain section of society and a belief by the poster that they are hard done by, plus the usual myths and stereotypes.

fliball123

creep wrote: »

Anyone knows that if you do a course in a structured environment such as springboard broadband is a necessity to have at home. You try and do assignments and study without internet after 9 o'clock and I guarantee you 100% you will fail the course. The work load is unreal these days and without the internet at home after 9PM when the college closes or when the library closes you cannot do assignments, you cannot install custom software you just cannot study or do assingments without it. I remember in my postgraduate I was up till 5AM three or four nights a week trying to get things done and without the internet it would have been impossible. So yes I feel like I should be entilted to the internet. Without I probably would still be on the dole. I work as a programmer earning good money finally so I don't know where you are getting this 14 hour sleeping pattern from.

It really sounds like you have a serious chip on your shoulder against the unemployed and in my opinion it sounds like they should be given 0 euro on the dole. Just sounds to me like you are in a low paid job and struggling to get by and are really pissed off at it. Are you against people upskilling that might get a better job than you? Maybe you should cut off your own broadband. You also have to pay 1 euro an hour to use the computers and anywhere with decent computers its 2 euro an hour so yea everyone needs broadband who are genuinly trying to upskill. I'm sure plenty of people who would love to pay for there own broadband. The way you are talking its simple to get a job and everyone on the dole are wasters. Took me two years in a sector that's apparently booming to land a job. A lot of people are leaving the country as well to find work sure employment is booming. I'm sure everyone on the dole takes "Pride" from been on the dole.

absolute horse*** I went to college and they had labs which most third level have which were avaiilable to the student at a rate of 24/7....I did this part time whilst working full time and I never had a laptop at home..and the course I did was computer Science..As I say if you do a course in a structured environment it usually means that the environment is tailored to your course..In my case a lab full of computers were there for the student 24/7...

So your 100% will fail is a load of nonsense as I have seen first hand the majority of students succeeding and getting their honors degree in those circumstances

As for your work load is unreal..welcome to the real world...if you want to succeed you need to put the effort in and if the courses were easy everyone would be doing them...

As for what you think you are entitled to..Why dont you get yourself a loan out and get broadband..Your the one getting the benefit..Why should I or the other tax payers pay for broadband for you or the other 400k on the dole when a lot of the time you will not be doing work for your course...As I say the tax payer cannot afford it at the present time with the current commitments ...

Your have a sense of entitlement that was built up during the tiger years...Also if your working why should you be entitled to free broadband?

I have no chip on my shoulder with the unemployed..I have a chip on my shoulder with the dossers and messers on there who have no intention to work or upskill..I also have one with the entitlements that they think they should have such as your suggestion of broadband...or other who think communion dresses or new buggies every month....or free fireworks for funerals..the list on entitlements go on and on and they are abused constantly..

We are broke and borrowing 1 billion a month when will that little nugget of information sink in..

I would gladly support someone who is looking for work...but what you are asking for is not an entitlement but a luxury..If you want a luxury you need to work..Why dont people on the dole look for any kind of work then they have money to pay for broad band even on the minimum wage and that why they do not inconvenience the tax payer further.

Why should I cut off my own broadband..I pay for mine? No one else pays for it

As for you final comment there are also people on the dole abusing the system that is a fact...and regardless and this is the crucial part which if you do not try to tackle then you cannot be taken serious so answer the below question

We pay over 20 billion in social welfare (the highest in the OCED)
We are broke to the tune of 200 billion and borrowing 1 billon a month to meet current commitments..
We pay one of the highest rates of tax in the OCED and are past the point of diminishing returns..
So you tell me who pays for the 20 Euro * 400 Euros for free broadband?

fliball123

Paulzx wrote: »

I think you'll find that creep is well aware of this as he has repeatedly said that he is working.

For some reason you've composed a rant aimed at him which all but says he's some form of bloodsucking deadwood that wasted the taxes you hate paying.

I've no idea what you expect of people if you have a problem with them gaining an education and subsequently using them skills to gain work and become productive members of society. If spending 20 euro a month on broadband assists this well so be it.

The hate seems to be eating you up

NOt at all who will pay 20 Euros a month * 400k people thats a lot of money which is not there to pay..Sorry but broad band is a luxury not an essential..Essentials are clothes/warmth/food/water and housing anything above that is a luxury by any definition. I find it gailing that people like creep want to in-pun an already over taxed and over burdened set of tax payers to pay for broadband so that they can sit at home..