Kenny declares war on welfare culture

tayto lover

Elephant Man from china wrote: »

If this really was their attitude, why wouldn't they take a job in a shop or minimum wage factory? The reason, life on the dole and the occasional nixer allows them to sit at home all day, staring at a screen ;-)

I think it would be hard to go from 800 euro a week to minimum wage though. I can see why they would take the dole instead. They become accustomed to having money. They are not going to burst a gut for minimum wage.

creep

tayto lover wrote: »

I think it would be hard to go from 800 euro a week to minimum wage though. I can see why they would take the dole instead. They become accustomed to having money. They are not going to burst a gut for minimum wage.

Why, do you everyone that was in the construction sector?

tayto lover

creep wrote: »

Why, do you everyone that was in the construction sector?

I said "i think".

7upfree

wexie wrote: »

Give us more of your marvelous insights into the IT industry, I'm at the edge of my seat.

:rolleyes:

No one has a problem with degrees, IT, etc. It's a life choice. However, when idiotic comments like "they're only labourers" are bandied about, it demonstrates the true intelligent of those posting said comments.

jank

At the end of the day people when young made their own life choices. Most of my friends went off to do a trade as there was plenty of work and the money was earned off the bat in year 1, meanwhile I had to go to college for 5 years and work part time to keep myself ticking over. Even at that when I finished my wage after a B.Sc and M.Sc was under 20k a year and this was in the boom! Mates of mine were raking it in with their trade. Then of course the crash comes and now who is in a better position?

The thing is most of them dont like what they are doing, they only did the trade as sure the money was good and easy. Going to college took time and the rewards were a long way off. By the way none of my friends who did a trade currently lives in Ireland, most of my friends who went to college are still there. That says a lot I think. I always liked the term 'Own the future by working the present' Instant gratification is something we need to lose.

There is very little well paid work for unskilled people now, all those jobs are in the far east. So if the choice is between mucking about in Tesco for min wage or claiming the dole then I can see why people do that. It is the easy option but they are nothing more than wasters. Cut the dole and make it an incentive to work for the min wage again.

who_ru

the politicians created the welfare system, not the unemployed.

Fr. Sean Healy agitated for an increase in welfare to what became over 200 euro per week late celtic tiger era, Bertie Ahern granted his wish, Bertie Ahern ramped up child benefit before each election and got re-elected 3 times in a row for his generosity by the good people of Ireland.

so all of you folk pointing the finger at the unemployed for this country's problems better think again. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

Godge

creep wrote: »

100 euro in my opinion is very low for someone to be on for up to the age of 21 24. They should at least get 188 for the first six months, if no employment in six months then should be brought down to 144, if no employment in a further six months then be put down to 100. I think this would be very fair because most people in question do want to work and can take up to a year to find a job. When they turn 25 they should remain on 100 if they have never try'd to better themselves and get a job but should be boosted and to more to 144 an no more. They should get the full the 188 if they have worked


For the under 21's 144 and if no work in six months be brought down to 100 euro and no work in a year be brought down to 80.

For people over 25's depending on kids, mortgage etc it should be brought down to 144 if no work in one year. Thats the fairest way to do it in my opinion.

Its a bit all over the place but you get my drift

But it is Jobseekers allowance that is reduced for U-26s, not Jobseekers Benefit.

If you were earning €300 per week or over with 260 credits, you still get the full €188 rate of JSB. It is only those who haven't worked or who have run out of JSB who get the lower JSA rates.

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

So what exactly?

They worked harder than you and got paid more.

Why is it that everybody with a degree,or worse an IT degree feels that the world owes them and only them a living?

People who want to work in IT do so because they want to sit at a desk all day looking at a computer screen.

They absolutely do NOT want to dig trenches or haul building blocks in the lashings of rain because they dont have the physical strength or the moral fibre for manual work...thats fair enough but don't whinge because people working harder than you are getting paid more than you.

They may well have worked harder than me..I doubt it but did they work harder than any other labourer within the OCED why were they getting paid so much more than their counterparts in other countries doing a simular job?

fliball123

tayto lover wrote: »

I think it would be hard to go from 800 euro a week to minimum wage though. I can see why they would take the dole instead. They become accustomed to having money. They are not going to burst a gut for minimum wage.

Well if they don't want to work why should I work and be over taxed to support them sitting on their bums?

Sleepy

7upfree wrote: »

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Have you ANY idea how hard these guys work? "Unskilled"?, i.e. no third level degree does not make them any less valuable. Christ, I've seen absolute morons who - inexplicably - managed to attain degree status. But who are absolutely useless in the real world.

And if they're absolutely useless in the real world, they'll be paid accordingly.

Regardless of the physical effort involved, unskilled labour is low value precisely because anyone who's not suffering from a disability can provide it. There's no rarity in the ability to carry blocks, shovel sand or dig holes.

The more the skill level of a job increases, the rarer the ability to do it well and the higher the price the worker can command for their labours. Hence a fully qualified carpenter or architect will earn more than an unskilled labourer.

chopper6 wrote: »

So what exactly?

They worked harder than you and got paid more.

Why is it that everybody with a degree,or worse an IT degree feels that the world owes them and only them a living?

People who want to work in IT do so because they want to sit at a desk all day looking at a computer screen.

They absolutely do NOT want to dig trenches or haul building blocks in the lashings of rain because they dont have the physical strength or the moral fibre for manual work...thats fair enough but don't whinge because people working harder than you are getting paid more than you.

Right... so someone having the academic ability and foresight to invest their time and energy in obtaining qualifications that improve their life-long employment prospects rather than going out and providing themselves as unskilled labour are "lacking physical strength or moral fibre"?

Horse****e. I can think of a female scientist that works in a university than I can pretty much guarantee is physically stronger than either of us. If you're posting on this forum, one would have hoped you'd know enough about economics to understand that the construction industry in Ireland was utterly dysfunctional during the boom. That an unskilled labourer could earn more than someone working in a graduate position was an anomaly caused by a property bubble.

People working in IT are as diverse a group as Construction Workers btw, if not more so. Within the industry you have extremely well paid positions in software development and low paid ones doing tech support, high paid positions designing processors and low paid ones inserting them into motherboards.

Your misguided notion that only physical labour can be "hard work" is utter nonsense as well tbh. 8 hours of writing code would leave me far more drained than 8 hours lifting and carrying and you're utterly deluding yourself if you think boom-era construction workers were the only ones doing 50 hour weeks (those of us in IT are just less likely to get overtime for it since we tend to be on salary).

Of course, there are probably just as many dossers in IT as there are guys who stand around a construction site leaning on a shovels. No industry has a monopoly on work ethic and lets face it, any unsilled worker who was working in the contruction industry during the boom that has a work ethic isn't sitting on their arse drawiing the dole now. Some will still be working in the industry here, others doing so abroad, some will be providing unskilled labour in other industries (hell, I know fully qualified carpenters that are stacking shelves in retail, nevermind former labourers) or, god forbid, are back in education pursuing degrees in IT.

None of those guys are the problem though. They're either earning and paying taxes or getting themselves into a position where they'll be able to do so again in the future.

It's the ones without the work ethic who were prepared to put in a days work for two day's pay during the boom who are deluded enough to think that that's the kind of income they deserve despite having no marketable skill-set that are the problem. The people who think the rest of us owe them a living because they can't find anyone to pay them the insane rates they feel entitled to because they were able to earn them for a couple of years in a bubble economy. I'm sure there were IT workers who took a while to adjust to realistic pay levels after the .com bubble of the the 90's too btw. They were rather luckier however as even normal levels of pay for most IT work is many multiples of what one can ever expect as an unskilled worker.

tayto lover wrote: »

I think it would be hard to go from 800 euro a week to minimum wage though. I can see why they would take the dole instead. They become accustomed to having money. They are not going to burst a gut for minimum wage.

And this is exactly the problem. If they're not prepared to put the effort into the education required to develop marketable skills and aren't happy to work for minimum wage, then frankly they don't deserve welfare.

As a society, however, we don't like to let anyone starve (even if it is through their own stupidity) and since there's the likelihood they'll turn to crime in the absence of any other means of supporting themselves so we bribe them with social welfare. The trick is getting the level of this right: somewhere between the level where it's enough to feed, house and clothe someone and where it (as it currently does) makes them comfortable enough to refuse to work for a living.

Sleepy

who_ru wrote: »

the politicians created the welfare system, not the unemployed.

Fr. Sean Healy agitated for an increase in welfare to what became over 200 euro per week late celtic tiger era, Bertie Ahern granted his wish, Bertie Ahern ramped up child benefit before each election and got re-elected 3 times in a row for his generosity by the good people of Ireland.

so all of you folk pointing the finger at the unemployed for this country's problems better think again. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

And no-one that's unemployed voted for Bertie Ahern or FF? :rolleyes:

fliball123

7upfree wrote: »

No one has a problem with degrees, IT, etc. It's a life choice. However, when idiotic comments like "they're only labourers" are bandied about, it demonstrates the true intelligent of those posting said comments.

Well dont put me in with that..I simply pointed out they were paid more then their OCED counterparts at the time for doing the same job..They cashed in on the boom and the insane amount of building that went on and more power to them...My problem is that they were getting so much for doing a job that in other countries they would not of earned half as much..and now they deem not worth getting out of bed for a certain amount ...Some people have a negative attitude to working for the minimum wage

chopper6

wexie wrote: »

Give us more of your marvelous insights into the IT industry, I'm at the edge of my seat.

:rolleyes:

Well the prevailing attitude,at least on boards *seems* to be:

"I'm in IT...how come people in in the PS get paid more than me and i have a degree y'know".

or:

"I've got a degree in IT,why should i work in any other sector,the dole will do me and everybody else is to blame".

chopper6

Sleepy wrote: »

8 hours of writing code would leave me far more drained than 8 hours lifting and carrying

Have you ever done 8 hours of lifting and carrying?

I work in an office(mostly) now,but i worked in retail,warehousing and services for many years and i know which i thought was harder.

Sleepy wrote: »

and you're utterly deluding yourself if you think boom-era construction workers were the only ones doing 50 hour weeks (those of us in IT are just less likely to get overtime for it since we tend to be on salary).

.

What's this "boom-era" business?

There was never a boom...there was a bubble that fed into a couple of sectors but it's over now...do you think everybody in construction,building and heavy industry has since lost thier jobs?

They dfont get paid overtime either..it's a job of work..they work til it's done...as do i...working 50 hours per week(and i'm also on a salary) is no big deal anywhere.

SupaNova2

chopper6 wrote: »

Have you ever done 8 hours of lifting and carrying?

I work in an office(mostly) now,but i worked in retail,warehousing and services for many years and i know which i thought was harder.

He wasn't talking about a run of the mill office job but that of a programmer. I've done both the lifting and the programming all day, my dads a blocklayer and I have a degree in software. I found software so much tougher that I no longer do it. Dropout rates from IT courses are the highest of any, 52 were whittled done to about 12 by the third year of my course.

Sleepy

chopper6 wrote: »

Have you ever done 8 hours of lifting and carrying?

I work in an office(mostly) now,but i worked in retail,warehousing and services for many years and i know which i thought was harder.

Yep, my pre-professional life has a wide and varied CV. Never been afraid of hard work to pay my way. Admittedly, I've not done a huge amount of construction labouring but my experience to date has been that a day of mentally challenging work is far more exhausting than a day of physical labour.

The latter might leave you physically tired but, for me at least, mental exhaustion is far less pleasant.

What's this "boom-era" business?

There was never a boom...there was a bubble that fed into a couple of sectors but it's over now...do you think everybody in construction,building and heavy industry has since lost thier jobs?

They dfont get paid overtime either..it's a job of work..they work til it's done...as do i...working 50 hours per week(and i'm also on a salary) is no big deal anywhere.

Well, there was initially a boom which became a bubble but that's probably a bit anal for this conversation in fairness....

I'm well aware there's still a construction industry in Ireland (I have clients in it in fact).

I'd agree with you that a 50 hour week is nothing unusual. Looking back, it was FTA's posts that seemed to be making the inference that it was something unique to unskilled site labourers. Apologies for confusing your posts with his.

maninasia

jank wrote: »

At the end of the day people when young made their own life choices. Most of my friends went off to do a trade as there was plenty of work and the money was earned off the bat in year 1, meanwhile I had to go to college for 5 years and work part time to keep myself ticking over. Even at that when I finished my wage after a B.Sc and M.Sc was under 20k a year and this was in the boom! Mates of mine were raking it in with their trade. Then of course the crash comes and now who is in a better position?

The thing is most of them dont like what they are doing, they only did the trade as sure the money was good and easy. Going to college took time and the rewards were a long way off. By the way none of my friends who did a trade currently lives in Ireland, most of my friends who went to college are still there. That says a lot I think. I always liked the term 'Own the future by working the present' Instant gratification is something we need to lose.

There is very little well paid work for unskilled people now, all those jobs are in the far east. So if the choice is between mucking about in Tesco for min wage or claiming the dole then I can see why people do that. It is the easy option but they are nothing more than wasters. Cut the dole and make it an incentive to work for the min wage again.

It can be hard to predict the future, and a trade is a valuable thing in normal times , it just happened that too many people jumped into it in a bubble economy. It will still stand to them abroad and perhaps at home in the future.

The same happens with college degrees to a degree, in 'normal' times a nurse should walk into a job anywhere, but that's not really the case at the moment in Ireland....and if you want to be a solicitor or teacher or guard or lots of other things..it's just not happening..through no fault of the individual student. It's bad macro economic management that is the problem.

chopper6

SupaNova2 wrote: »

He wasn't talking about a run of the mill office job but that of a programmer. I've done both the lifting and the programming all day, my dads a blocklayer and I have a degree in software. I found software so much tougher that I no longer do it. Dropout rates from IT courses are the highest of any, 52 were whittled done to about 12 by the third year of my course.

The reason that dropout rates for IT courses are so high,at least in my opinion is that they are monumentally boring.

To most people computer languages are an abstract concept,being almost impossible to visualise or make sense of...if people want to pursue them or have a gift for it,good for them..it does not mean however that they're in some way superior to people with other skills or aptitudes.

My primary degree way back was in English...even in that class we had a substantial dropout rate and certain parts of the module such as Middle English and Latin would cause even the most diligent scholar to scratch thier heads...some people are good with words,some are good with numbers,some are good with thier hands...it doesnt mean that one is better than the other.

tayto lover

I was thinking about this thread while at work today and putting myself into the shoes of the Minister for Finance. He has a hard job trying to balance the books in fairness and it's hard to please everyone as we all feel hard done by when our finances are cut.

Much of the reason for people feeling bad is because people don't see that everyone is effected equally. They feel that the rich are getting away lightly while the poor are paying for the sins of the rich. Hard to disagree with that when you see the Medical Cards being removed from the sick, special needs, old and infirm in a willy nilly fashion.

Many of the problems arise because nobody is explaining the exact situation to those seriously effected and the media continually report that the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing.

SupaNova2

chopper6 wrote: »

The reason that dropout rates for IT courses are so high,at least in my opinion is that they are monumentally boring.

To most people computer languages are an abstract concept,being almost impossible to visualise or make sense of...if people want to pursue them or have a gift for it,good for them..it does not mean however that they're in some way superior to people with other skills or aptitudes.

For IT courses it varies, I would have classed most of it as not boring, it wasn't the reason people were dropping out of my course. You are closer when you say it requires a different mindset or skillset. A mindset that is severely underdeveloped in secondary schools where programming should start.

chopper6

SupaNova2 wrote: »

For IT courses it varies, I would have classed most of it as not boring, it wasn't the reason people were dropping out of my course. You are closer when you say it requires a different mindset or skillset. A mindset that is severely underdeveloped in secondary schools where programming should start.

It should be part of the options in secondary school alright,so that people with an aptitude can learn it or improve on it if they have an interest.

It should by no means be compulsory though as most students will rightly find it difficult and will tend to lose interest.

murphaph

In Germany people who work with their hands almost always earn a good deal less than those that primarily use their heads. It's perhaps a cultural thing but Germans seem to automatically respect engineers and scientists.

Borboletinha

chopper6 wrote: »

It should be part of the options in secondary school alright,so that people with an aptitude can learn it or improve on it if they have an interest.

It should by no means be compulsory though as most students will rightly find it difficult and will tend to lose interest.

A lot of students find chemistry difficult and it is compulsory anyway. Most students will use a computer way more than the chemistry table in their lives . At least the main concepts(variables,loops,conditionals)
should be taught. It's being taught in parts of the world already. Quite a few teenagers writing apps and games in America for instance.

creep

Programming should definitly be an option in secondary and not just Java or something, should be exams for Oracle, PHP, C++, Networking etc so a person can take more than one of them. Allready subjects in place for science, business etc, why not Computing?

Should be equivalent to the certs you have to pay for to do. Most jobs you only specialise in one area and then after they finish school can get the professional cert. They could even start working right away!

Also maybe small bits in primary school as well because thats when the mind is developing and will get a better understanding

FTA69

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd agree with you that a 50 hour week is nothing unusual. Looking back, it was FTA's posts that seemed to be making the inference that it was something unique to unskilled site labourers. Apologies for confusing your posts with his.

What? I never made that inference whatsoever.

I said that labourers worked hard and long hours doing taxing work in all weather conditions. If anything is being inferred here is that kids were leaving school and getting paid big money for doing f*ck all, usually accompanied by grossly exaggerated wage scales that are plucked from thin air.

I never once said that hard work was limited to construction.

Idbatterim

I was thinking about this thread while at work today and putting myself into the shoes of the Minister for Finance. He has a hard job trying to balance the books in fairness and it's hard to please everyone as we all feel hard done by when our finances are cut.

Much of the reason for people feeling bad is because people don't see that everyone is effected equally. They feel that the rich are getting away lightly while the poor are paying for the sins of the rich. Hard to disagree with that when you see the Medical Cards being removed from the sick, special needs, old and infirm in a willy nilly fashion.

well you cant please everyone is the thing, the fact that he is pissing various groups off actually proves that hard decisions are being taken, the government as you say are pretty poor at putting across the message of just how unpalatable any option will be to any interest group here, unless its more of tax the rich etc :rolleyes: Im wondering what FG have planned or up their sleeve, I'm wondering if is naive to cut the pensioners, morally it is right to do, but politically, finding whatever was saved by the phone allowance somewhere else would have been very easy, for example motor taxed wasnt increased, thats a dead cert nearly every year, I admire them for what they are trying to achieve, I just hope it doesnt come back to bite them in the a**...

Its a fine line for FG, if you arent prepared to be economically irresponsible, every other party in government here are, good time charlies etc like FF, you risk being punished for actually getting stuff done and not buying people votes and then getting dumped at the next election only for more boom - bust type government and policies, then you are back in power with the task of cleaning up the mess and then back out again a few years later...

wexie

chopper6 wrote: »

Well the prevailing attitude,at least on boards *seems* to be:"I'm in IT...how come people in in the PS get paid more than me and i have a degree y'know".
or:"I've got a degree in IT,why should i work in any other sector,the dole will do me and everybody else is to blame".

IF that is the case (and I don't agree it is) then that's complete nonsense, a degree is a base to start from, once you have it you start adding skills and experience which is what you're paid for.

chopper6 wrote: »

Have you ever done 8 hours of lifting and carrying?

One more than one occasion, do you think this kinda stuff just magically appears in racks? Or that it's unicorns jumping through hoops that arranged rooms like these?

To say that everybody in IT sits at a desk staring at a screen only indicates you've absolutely **** all idea of the IT industry and is as ignorant as someone else saying that everybody doing manual work is 'unskilled'.

7upfree

tayto lover wrote: »

I was thinking about this thread while at work today and putting myself into the shoes of the Minister for Finance. He has a hard job trying to balance the books in fairness and it's hard to please everyone as we all feel hard done by when our finances are cut.

Much of the reason for people feeling bad is because people don't see that everyone is effected equally. They feel that the rich are getting away lightly while the poor are paying for the sins of the rich. Hard to disagree with that when you see the Medical Cards being removed from the sick, special needs, old and infirm in a willy nilly fashion.

Many of the problems arise because nobody is explaining the exact situation to those seriously effected and the media continually report that the gap between the rich and the poor is increasing.

His decisions should be:

1. Not to have 80% of the Education budget going on salaries.

2. Not to have 70% of the HSE budget squandered in a similar manner.

3. Not to spend more than the country takes in (FFS they're almost celebrating returning to the markets to borrow money to perpetuate the above charades).

4. Slash the number of politicians.

5. Slash the politicians gravy train.

Turkeys, Christmas, etc.

Horrid Henry

The people who keep this country going have had it up to here with getting hammered while a certain cohort happily freeload their way through life.

Why is it not possible to make the unemployed work for their benefits? I'm sure that the Gardai could do with admin people at no extra cost to free up trained police.

And the elephant in the room is immigration. I'm sick of seeing people from the Philipinnes on their way to work in the morning and seeing other specific ethnic groups strutting around shouting into mobile phones while the rest of us subsidise it.

Fair play to Enda Kenny...the welfare side of things needs to be radically reformed.

7upfree

Horrid Henry wrote: »

The people who keep this country going have had it up to here with getting hammered while a certain cohort happily freeload their way through life.

Why is it not possible to make the unemployed work for their benefits? I'm sure that the Gardai could do with admin people at no extra cost to free up trained police.

And the elephant in the room is immigration. I'm sick of seeing people from the Philipinnes on their way to work in the morning and seeing other specific ethnic groups strutting around shouting into mobile phones while the rest of us subsidise it.

Fair play to Enda Kenny...the welfare side of things needs to be radically reformed.

My hatred of that man runs very deep. But you make some excellent points.