Kenny declares war on welfare culture

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

how are they getting away with that?

Totally normal.

Thousands of people in same situation.

They have 350k on deposit and 500k in total financial assets.

Great country!!!!

9% tax on nearly 1,000 per week income, travel pass, med card, free TV licence, subsidised elec and telecom...........

Where else would you get it?????

fliball123

sarumite wrote: »

If you are making the claim, then yes I want you back them up with facts.

I made the claim that we are over taxed..people here then compare us to Sweeden using a model 2 years out of date ( so no account for increase in USC or property tax) and not including all indirect taxes or even all income taxes (PRSI excluded). No one has proved that we are under taxed. I see my wage slip every week , trust me I am being over taxed and in relation to the service I receive I am very very over taxed.

See this is what I am getting at the levels of taxation vary so much (which is why I brought in the evidence of the progressiveness of our taxation) So its a question that every individual needs to answer themselves..those on the dole and on low incomes would consider this a low tax country.

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, it is very true that the 52% MTR on income above 32,800 is absolutely crazy.

A long list of different (sensible) taxes does not mean that we are "over-taxed".

Now, you could argue that we get bad value for our taxes, and I would agree with you. If that is what you mean by "over-taxed", then I agree.

I don't agree with 600-700m foreign aid.

I don't agree with huge pension tax relief for high earners.

I don't agree with unlimited duration JSA

I don't agree with pensioners on 50k paying 9% tax + USC.

That is what I am arguing why are people comparing us to Sweden?

I am with you on all that you disagree with

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

I made the claim that we are over taxed..people here then compare us to Sweeden using a model 2 years out of date ( so no account for increase in USC or property tax) and not including all indirect taxes or even all income taxes (PRSI excluded). No one has proved that we are under taxed. I see my wage slip every week , trust me I am being over taxed and in relation to the service I receive I am very very over taxed.

All taxes plus all social contributions. General Govt revenue, 2012 data from Eurostat.

Sweden = 51.6% of GDP
Ireland = 34.5% of GDP

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tec00021&plugin=1

fliball123

Geuze wrote: »

All taxes plus all social contributions. General Govt revenue, 2012 data from Eurostat.

Sweden = 51.6% of GDP
Ireland = 34.5% of GDP

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=tec00021&plugin=1

Once again I argue with you that its GDP which is skewed by multinationals and not an accurate measurement for Ireland in particular. Look what % do google and facebook pay..come on do it on GNP. So it kind of goes back to the indiviidual nature of tax..Multinationals think we are a low tax country

wexie

fliball123 wrote: »

Once again I argue with you that its GDP which is skewed by multinationals and not an accurate measurement for Ireland in particular

correct me if I'm wrong (which I may well be as I've only half been following this) but.....given that Sweden also has an unemployment rate nearly half that of Ireland wouldn't that skew the numbers even further?

Last I checked not a lot of unemployed people were paying taxes or social contributions so looking at the total amount of tax and social contributions paid in relation to GDP and working out 'overtaxed' or 'undertaxed' you'd have to look at the amount of people doing the actual paying?

fliball123

wexie wrote: »

correct me if I'm wrong (which I may well be as I've only half been following this) but.....given that Sweden also has an unemployment rate nearly half that of Ireland wouldn't that skew the numbers even further?

Last I checked not a lot of unemployed people were paying taxes or social contributions so looking at the total amount of tax and social contributions paid in relation to GDP and working out 'overtaxed' or 'undertaxed' you'd have to look at the amount of people doing the actual paying?

Nail on the head and I will point back to the progressiveness of our tax system

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Once again I argue with you that its GDP which is skewed by multinationals and not an accurate measurement for Ireland in particular. Look what % do google and facebook pay..come on do it on GNP. So it kind of goes back to the indiviidual nature of tax..Multinationals think we are a low tax country

OK, here's the adjustment:

Irl GDP 2012 = 163,938m

Irl GNP 2012 = 132,649m

GNP is 80.9% of GDP.

34.5 / 0.809 = 42.6% of GNP.

So our total taxes as % GNP are well below Swedish levels.

As you'd expect, given that they have a very comprehensive welfare state.

Geuze

fliball123 wrote: »

Nail on the head and I will point back to the progressiveness of our tax system

See here for more of the progressiveness of our income tax system:

http://www.publicpolicy.ie/budget-2013-progressivity-of-irish-income-tax-system/

And here:

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/average-personal-income-tax-rate-and-tax-wedge-progression-in-oecd-countries_5k4c0vhzsq8v-en

tonkey

Geuze wrote: »

Totally normal.

Thousands of people in same situation.

They have 350k on deposit and 500k in total financial assets.

Great country!!!!

9% tax on nearly 1,000 per week income, travel pass, med card, free TV licence, subsidised elec and telecom...........

Where else would you get it?????

Your saying that as if that's a bad thing.

Godge

Geuze wrote: »

OK, here's the adjustment:

Irl GDP 2012 = 163,938m

Irl GNP 2012 = 132,649m

GNP is 80.9% of GDP.

34.5 / 0.809 = 42.6% of GNP.

So our total taxes as % GNP are well below Swedish levels.

As you'd expect, given that they have a very comprehensive welfare state.

The Swedish welfare state is different to the Irish one, that doesn't make it comprehensive.

Yes, they provide subsidised childcare, better education and better health services for all.

Their social welfare system, while on a par with the Irish one on terms of the amount of benefits, has greater penalties for those not seeking work.

wexie

Godge wrote: »

Their social welfare system, while on a par with the Irish one on terms of the amount of benefits, has greater penalties for those not seeking work.

That's a good thing no?

Godge

wexie wrote: »

That's a good thing no?

yes, but what I am saying is that paying more taxes doesn't necessarily mean an easier life for those on the dole.

Mr. teddywinkles

srsly78 wrote: »

Gas lamps of course

But yeah noone needs broadband, sure you can still get internet via 56k dialup.

that would cost a lot more:-D