General Mulcahy's Luger pistol

tac foley

Mornin', all. I was batting the breeze with my cousin over in OR about Luger pistols [he has three that used to be mine] and I mentioned that they were not uncommon among senior officers of the Irish Free State Army in the early days. There is a fine photograph of General Mulcahy in Justin Nelson's book - 'Michael Collins - The Final Days', wearing his Luger pistol in an unusual open-topped holster. From the size and delineation, it seems to be the 6" barrelled Navy version, itself a rarity of great value to Luger collectors everywhere.

I was aware that General Collin's own revolver had been threatened with the cutting torch some time ago, but have no idea what might have happened to this very significant firearm. So my question is, does General Mulcahy's Luger still exist somewhere, and if so, is it accessible to be photographed?

TIA

tac, formerly of www.lugerforum.com

Grizzly 45

.

From the size and delineation, it seems to be the 6" barrelled Navy version, itself a rarity of great value to Luger collectors everywhere.

Tac.
Just on that point,funnily enough that was problay the most common Luger in Ireland post ww1.
Some of the Royal Irish regiments faced off against the Kaisers marine corps in 1917 or 16[forget where, or which year in France],but apprently got the better of them and many of these Luger types made it back in returning Irish kit bags after Nov 1918 as spoils of war. Whence they were put to use both in the war of independnce and civil war.
Almost every reserve issue Luger in the Emergency seems to have been a marine pattern,so they must have been plentiful.

MRnotlob606

,his son is a heart specialist

tac foley

Thanks, Grizzly - that's piece of Luger lore that I'm fairly certain that NOBODY over the other side knows about. With your persimmon, I'd like to pass it on to the many Luger mavens I know there. You can figure on a Naval pattern P08 - 6" bbl and two-stage backsight - to be worth anything between three and five times as much as a standard Army issue 4" bbl version.

Best

tac

rowa

I was lucky enough to fire a few rounds from a 1916 luger a few weeks back, the toggle action is a very interesting design and they are rightly a revered firearm.

deerhunter1

tac foley wrote: »

Mornin', all. I was batting the breeze with my cousin over in OR about Luger pistols [he has three that used to be mine] and I mentioned that they were not uncommon among senior officers of the Irish Free State Army in the early days. There is a fine photograph of General Mulcahy in Justin Nelson's book - 'Michael Collins - The Final Days', wearing his Luger pistol in an unusual open-topped holster. From the size and delineation, it seems to be the 6" barrelled Navy version, itself a rarity of great value to Luger collectors everywhere.

I was aware that General Collin's own revolver had been threatened with the cutting torch some time ago, but have no idea what might have happened to this very significant firearm. So my question is, does General Mulcahy's Luger still exist somewhere, and if so, is it accessible to be photographed?

TIA

tac, formerly of www.lugerforum.com

Michael Collins Squad pistols

tac foley

Thank you, Sir - that is much appreciated. The .455 Webley is pretty common for the day, but the standard Army issue P08 is still a surprise, although perhaps not as much as it would have been without the informative comment from Grizzly45.

Poor guns are in dire need of some TLC......

tac

Grizzly 45

Anyone ever see the select fire Luger carbine[NO BS!!] in storage up in the Curragh??:eek::)There is proably two or three of them in the world and we have one of them in storage...
Would anyone like to hazard a guess on how such a thing even exists???;)
A challenge for all Luger fans here.:p

deerhunter1

tac foley wrote: »

Thank you, Sir - that is much appreciated. The .455 Webley is pretty common for the day, but the standard Army issue P08 is still a surprise, although perhaps not as much as it would have been without the informative comment from Grizzly45.

Poor guns are in dire need of some TLC......

tac

welcome

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Anyone ever see the select fire Luger carbine[NO BS!!] in storage up in the Curragh??:eek::)There is proably two or three of them in the world and we have one of them in storage...
Would anyone like to hazard a guess on how such a thing even exists???;)
A challenge for all Luger fans here.:p

The selective-fire Mauser C96 [so-called 'Broomhandle Mauser] was pretty common, and called the Schnellfeuerpistole it was very popular among the Chinese in the early part of the 20th Century, to the point where they actually copied it [without license].

However, I've never heard of a Luger design being put into series production - trials showed that the rate of fire was far too high to be useful. This needs some work, I think.

tac

rowa

Tell us about the .45 acp luger you used to own tac

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

Tell us about the .45 acp luger you used to own tac

Easy peezy..Us Govt contract pre 1911.The Americans were looking for a suitable gun for the then new 45ACP round and were considering the Luger.
US Army orderd somthing like 200[?] of them for test purposes,and they are stamped with the US national coat of arms on the barrel.Worth stupid monies nowadays.

The selective-fire Mauser C96 [so-called 'Broomhandle Mauser] was pretty common, and called the Schnellfeuerpistole it was very popular among the Chinese in the early part of the 20th Century, to the point where they actually copied it [without license].

True enough,but all the c96 Mausers out in China are genuine Mausers.
It was the Spanish ASTRA that was the copy and flooded China.China reexported them[Mausers] to the US pre 1995 and they have a high collectors value,albeit refinished,and look somwhat "Chinesey"is the best way I can describe the finish.[Think AK type varnish and finish]

However, I've never heard of a Luger design being put into series production - trials showed that the rate of fire was far too high to be useful. This needs some work, I think.

OK.I'l make it a bit easier....It NEVER was an offical production or even prototype made by Luger or any subsidary of Luger in any shape or form.:)

It was handmade in a very limited run by shall we say an exceptionally bespoke gunsmith...Who would be well known to the "folk heros" of the 1920's in America..:)

Answer this time next Monday,if no one gets it.:)

rowa

Hymen S. Lehman of san antonio texas perhaps Grizz ?

Grizzly 45

VERY strong possibility...;):)

tac foley

rowa wrote: »

Tell us about the .45 acp luger you used to own tac

I wish.:eek:

tac

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

US Army orderd somthing like 200[?] of them for test purposes,and they are stamped with the US national coat of arms on the barrel.Worth stupid monies nowadays.

Not quite 200. Heinrich Hoffman, DWM's superintendent at the time ofthe 1906/7 trials, noted three, serial numbered 1 - 3. One was destroyed in the test, leaving #1 and #3. Both still exist, and change hands on an infrequent basis for for seven figures.

The American Eagle Lugers - stamped on the breech with the great seal of the USA, are very well-known commercial models produced in 1900 in 7.65x21 Luger calibre - known in the USA as .30cal Luger. 5000 were produced commercially, and another 12000 were stamped with the American Eagle.

tac

sfakiaman

A very interesting article about the Luger pistol here

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/History%20Book/814ArtyMax1917.htm

I actually knew the Generals daughter.

tac foley

All great stuff, Gentlefolks, please keep it coming!

Best

tac

PS - the P08 [Lange] was issued to submarine crews and also to Zeppelin airship crews.

Grizzly 45

For those who want or can have or afford a Luger in any configuration from "mild to wild."
Check out
http://www.waffen-werle.de/galerie.htm

tac foley

I've just sold my two de-activated Lugers here in UK. I couldn't bear to look at them any more.

tac

sfakiaman

An interesting thing about the Luger was that you could remove the barrel slide assembly and it would still fire a single round. I have dry fired one that way but not with a loaded chamber.

tac foley

Well, I DID fire one, wearing a stout pair of stockman's gloves. It wasn't too bad, all things considering. Just to show that it could be done, y'know?

tac

rowa

The company in the link below seem to specialise in german/austrian firearms and luger pistols in particular.

http://www.collectible-arms.co.uk/showroom/index.html

tac foley

Let me just explain to you how those who live on mainland UK - who already have a Firearms Certificate, remember - can lay their hands on one of Mr Gordon's beautiful live-firing handguns.

For ordinary folks like me, living in England, Scotland and Wales, all metallic cartridge-firing handguns that look like handguns [not the abortions called long-barrelled revolvers and suchlike], are prohibited firearms.

However, they are not illegal to own, as the prohibition can be overcome by special licensing arrangments. I have a Section 1 Firearms Licence for ordinary rifled barreled firearms, but IF I wanted a handgun like this, I COULD obtain a permit that allows me to poseess it, at home, but NOT to shoot it - that IS illegal.

I could also have another form of license that enables me to possess the gun AND to shoot it, but in that case, both the gun and the ammunition MUST be stored at one of [I think] seven sites in England [none in Wales or Scotland], and I have to go and 'visit' it to shoot it. The gun must also be of some historical or technical interest, and must NOT be used for target shooting...WTF you ARE supposed to do with it is beyond me, as standing there, stroking my chin and nodding sagely while discussing its relative merits is not exactly my cup of soop. Nor is shooting my own gun under the supervision of some spotty supervisor, who is there to make sure that I don't actually enjoy myself too much.

Of course, if I lived in the North, I could still have whatever I want, without the hassle of having to wear a tie and suit when I went visiting my guns.

So you CAN have a handgun on mainland UK, legally, AND shoot it, too. However, having commanded troops, there's no way my pride would let me go down THAT nasty lttle route, thought up by nasty little men who have never worn a uniform since cub scouts.

tac

rowa

There seems to be however tac, a lot of pistol being given out to deer stalkers for "humane dispatch" in the uk. I know its stupid but i recently seen a stalker over there who had sought permission for, and granted a licence for a glock 17 restricted to fire a single shot !

tac foley

True thing, Ronan, although 'given out' is not quite how I'D see it. Licenses AND guns are not cheap here, just like in Ireland.

We had one brave spark - a veterinarian, not a deer stalker - call up our club secretary to ask if he could come along to the range on a session and 'sight in' his newly-acquired, two-shot Smith & Wesson .357Mag revolver.

Needless to relate, the CS advised him that to shoot his gun on ANY range was breaking the terms and conditions of the license, and, in any case, why did he feel the need to 'sight in' a gun that was only going to be used at VERY close range on an injured deer or other large beast. If he felt that he was unable to shoot a non-moving and injured animal lying on the ground in front of him, then he shouldn't have applied for any kind of a gun.

End of conversation.

tac

riffmongous

Interesting thread, I saw a 'Mauser P 08' on sale in the window of the gun shop behind my university here a while back. Since as far as I've seen it's easier to get a license over here in Austria and I would be interested in starting to collect working ww2 weapons, would you recommend it, heavily used but 300€ (price is a very big issue), as a starting point tac? Or would I just be better off searching on the internet ?

link, but you need to find it on the page

tac foley

riffmongous wrote: »

Interesting thread, I saw a 'Mauser P 08' on sale in the window of the gun shop behind my university here a while back. Since as far as I've seen it's easier to get a license over here in Austria and I would be interested in starting to collect working ww2 weapons, would you recommend it, heavily used but 300€ (price is a very big issue), as a starting point tac? Or would I just be better off searching on the internet ?

link, but you need to find it on the page

Walk on by this sorry-looking puppy.

tac

rowa

riffmongous wrote: »

Interesting thread, I saw a 'Mauser P 08' on sale in the window of the gun shop behind my university here a while back. Since as far as I've seen it's easier to get a license over here in Austria and I would be interested in starting to collect working ww2 weapons, would you recommend it, heavily used but 300€ (price is a very big issue), as a starting point tac? Or would I just be better off searching on the internet ?

link, but you need to find it on the page

The same shop has a mint one for 960 euros, much better buy imho. Don't forget you cannot bring it back to the republic, sadly.

tac foley

rowa wrote: »

The same shop has a mint one for 960 euros, much better buy imho. Don't forget you cannot bring it back to the republic, sadly.

It's a modern Mauser made between 1985 and 1990 or so. It therefore has no mana whatsoever.

Be a nice shooter though, although you'd have to leave it in Austria.

tac

tac foley

Gentlemen - although this thread has certainly generated some interesting comments, and information, too, it hasn't discovered for me the answer to my question.

So unless anybody out there has an answer, I guess that this thread is dead in the water, as it covers a type of gun that is not common in the RoI for any number of reasons.

Thanks again for all your contributions.

tac