International expectations in other average countries

Sunglasses Ron

It was hard to think of a title for this one, I tried my best :pac:

I was just wondering if anyone had first hand experience, either through living abroad or knowing people from certain countries, about the public and media opinions in countries that, unlike ourselves, have little to no prior World Cup or Euros prior success or are dreaming of a repeat of long past glories, like ourselves. As we all know, we still aspire to the success of the Charlton and, to a lesser extent, the McCarthy years, it is the measuring bar that any manager must at least somewhat emulate in order to be considered a success.

What got me wondering was an article I read about an Albanian TV documentary on Januzaj called Patriot or Traitor. Which would seem to me that despite their complete lack of representation in any tournament ever the Albanian public seem to place heavy stock in the progression of their team. Which really is some loyalty you must admire, I often wonder if we went 20 years without a decent campaign would the next generation care about Ireland. Whereas in Slovakia, as I personally know, for most the national team is a side interest, the life and death result there is more about how they perform at international ice hockey and beating the Russians at it whenever possible. Scotland and Poland would rank like us in my opinion, a largely unwavering fanbase desperate for a repeat of past glories, and with a highly critical internal media against the repeated failings of the national sides. Austria were a great team in their day and yet in 2008 thousands signed a petition requesting they pull out of their automatic place in Euro 08 out of fear that they were so awful they would get a cricket score hiding.

So, anyone lived elsewhere in Europe able to shed some light on it?

HalloweenJack

I've lived in the Czech Republic, they think they're ****e and aren't going to be up to much if they qualify for anything. Like Slovaks, they are more concerned with their standing in hockey than that in football.

Spaniards are, as always, convinced they are the best. Even in previous less successful years, they were convinced of it. Someone who's been here 20+ years said "Spain never lose a game, they are always robbed". It somewhat sums up their attitude. EDIT: Just saw the "average" part so might not be relevant.

I've a fair few Finnish friends and a lot of them'd be similar to us. They seem to think they should be doing a lot better than they do. Even though Hodgson got them close to a major tournament, he was slated in the exact same way that Trap was.

Richard Hillman

I dont think there is a football fan on the planet that doesn't think their team can improve if yer man played instead of the other guy/ the manager was sacked/ the owner spends some more money/ the refs were not conspiring against them etc etc

It is why the likes of Football Manager are so popular.

ColeTrain

I think we should be looking at the North Korea model, they don't take defeat kindly.

Sunglasses Ron

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I dont think there is a football fan on the planet that doesn't think their team can improve if yer man played instead of the other guy/ the manager was sacked/ the owner spends some more money/ the refs were not conspiring against them etc etc

It is why the likes of Football Manager are so popular.

Indeed, but different teams have a different level of expectation. There isn't a Sunderland fan who has a realistic ambition higher than a Europa cup run within the next eight years for example. Pre 2008 there would not have been a City fan who truly imagined even a Champions League spot within a few years let alone a PL win. But due to our history a lot of Irish fans reckon that under the right manager picking the right players we have, if we get a lucky group draw, the potential to reach the knock out phase of a tournament. Primarily because on paper the likes of Greece, Sweden and Denmark have squads of similar or even inferior strength but have pulled it off. My question being, do the Armenian public think like this and demand this or are they resigned to being at best nearly men for a play off? Is there a Lituhanian Dunphy on TV out there insisting that with the right gaffer they should be in it? Or are these countries resigned to their averageness?

keeponhurling

The English generally view their team as a bit of a joke, harsh enough seeing as they're probably top 10 or 20 in the world.

RoutineBites

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

My question being, do the Armenian public think like this and demand this or are they resigned to being at best nearly men for a play off?

I'm Armenian on my mother's side. I've been to Yerevan within the past year and I can answer that no, that the Armenian public are not happy with being consigned to being play-off nearly men. Or at least not any longer. Prior to Euro 2012 qualifying any reasonable member of the Armenian public would of been delighted with that result. Why? Well, the Armenian team of four years ago has no where near the talent that it has now. Henrikh Mkhitaryan, Yura Movsisyan and Aras Ozbiliz are all high calibre players, who could all comfortably ply their trade in the top end of the Premier League. Movsisyan and Ozbiliz have only made their international debuts within the past four years. (Movsisyan made his competitive debut against us in Yerevan if I'm not mistaken. Ozbiliz only made his debut in 2012.) Since his transfer to Shaktar in 2010 Mkhitaryan has seriously stepped up in terms of quality. So you can really trace the genesis of this Armenia team back to the beginning of Euro 2012 qualifying. Or rather, the opening game of that campaign against us. :P

Those three are certainly the focal point of the team, but Armenia have also got pretty decent options in Roman Berezovsky, Robert Arzumanyan, Levon Hayrapetyan, Gevorg Ghazaryan, Marcos Pizzelli, Karlen Mkrtchyan and Edgar Manucharyan. The talent coming through isn't bad either, the U21 team didn't do too bad in the 2013 qualifying by finishing second in their group. Not doing to well right now unfortunately. But the talent is still there in people like Aghvan Papikyan and hopefully (Should he choose Armenia over Russia) Armen Ambartsumyan of CSKA.

If there's problems in the team it's in defence, exemplified through a disappointing (and pretty crucial) 1-0 loss to Malta during the campaign just gone by. Armenia however, are pretty merciless going forward, with the aforementioned trio being the pivot of the attack. (Found myself way more excited to sit down and watch Armenia's games over Ireland in the last campaign. Got considerably more emotive about it too.) You can see that quality in the wins against Bulgaria, Denmark, Czech Republic and the 2-2 draw with Italy over the previous year. The Armenian FA has got some pretty serious corruption problems too, (team selection is apparently influenced by the association's chairman Ruben Hayrapetyan quite a bit.) which would make the FAI's issues pale in comparison.

But are the Armenian public overly disappointed or bitter about the recent campaign? Probably not. You've got to give the team credit for the wins (and draw) they achieved, especially considering they were drawn in the, "Group Of Death." (Italy, Denmark, Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Armenia and Malta) I don't think the Armenian public are going to have the patience for any more slip-ups in the next campaign however. It's now or never for them really. And honestly, I reckon Armenia have got a better chance than Ireland at making it in 2016. Oh and by the way, Armenian fans have a pretty big grudge against Ireland. They seriously believe that Berezovsky's red card against us in 2011 cost them a play-off spot. And they seem to blame Simon Cox's antics after the incident as the significant reason for the referee's decision to dismiss him. Refereeing decision costs underdogs a play-off spot against Ireland? No irony in that. :pac:

Lovely Bloke

That's a brilliant post, fair play. The last bit is especially interesting.

keeponhurling

Never heard of this Simon Cox character

ronjo

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

. Whereas in Slovakia, as I personally know, for most the national team is a side interest, the life and death result there is more about how they perform at international ice hockey and beating the Russians at it whenever possible. ?

Would disagree on this part of your post. When they beat the Czechs in the semis in the worlds last year everyone went nuts and the final against Russia was seen as a bonus.
Beat Czech Republic is by far their number one wish in hockey from my experience of living here

ConstantJoe

Here in Turkey, in my experience, club football anyways seems to come first. Well, okay no, the Istanbul teams come first. The rivalry among fans of the big 3 is immense, and lots of bars in the big Turkish cities would pack regularly, just because one of the 3 is playing. Games featuring 2 of them, or a champions league match with a Turkish side, is something else.
Turkish football fans of course support their national team, and are seemingly convinced that they'll win every single game they play (for example, all the Turks I knew were convinced that they would beat Holland), but they don't seem that bothered that Turkey didn't quality for the World Cup. They're Turkish and proud, but for most of them the national team is definitely their second team.

Lawrence1895

HalloweenJack wrote: »

I've lived in the Czech Republic, they think they're ****e and aren't going to be up to much if they qualify for anything. Like Slovaks, they are more concerned with their standing in hockey than that in football.

Spaniards are, as always, convinced they are the best. Even in previous less successful years, they were convinced of it. Someone who's been here 20+ years said "Spain never lose a game, they are always robbed". It somewhat sums up their attitude. EDIT: Just saw the "average" part so might not be relevant.

I've a fair few Finnish friends and a lot of them'd be similar to us. They seem to think they should be doing a lot better than they do. Even though Hodgson got them close to a major tournament, he was slated in the exact same way that Trap was.

But they had a good team in the 1990s, making it into the final of the EURO 1996.

And the likes of Jan Koller and Tomas Rosicky had great achievements with Borussia Dortmund

godtabh

Speaking to a friend in Iceland. Handball is bigger but a lot of interest in the play offs. They arent sure how they game will be played as its the first game in 30 years that will be played in november*!




*or something like that

HalloweenJack

Lars1916 wrote: »

But they had a good team in the 1990s, making it into the final of the EURO 1996.

And the likes of Jan Koller and Tomas Rosicky had great achievements with Borussia Dortmund

Oh, I know. They still have some very decent players and when I was there they qualified for the Euros and got through to the quarter finals.

However, Czechs are, by far, the most modest bunch of people I've ever met and it shows in every facet of society.

Sunglasses Ron

godtabh wrote: »

Speaking to a friend in Iceland. Handball is bigger but a lot of interest in the play offs. They arent sure how they game will be played as its the first game in 30 years that will be played in november*!




*or something like that

I would have said they would be a cheeky bet for a home win given how cold I assumed it was there that the Croats may suffer in but

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reykjav%C3%ADk#Climate

For how far north it is it looks like its winters are not dramatically worse than ours!

roanoke

godtabh wrote: »

They arent sure how they game will be played as its the first game in 30 years that will be played in november*!


*or something like that

It looks like it'll be their first Winter (Nov/Dec/Jan) home international ever.

http://www.rsssf.com/tablesi/ijs-intres.html
http://ie.soccerway.com/teams/iceland/iceland/1143/matches/

GTR63

Lars1916 wrote: »

But they had a good team in the 1990s, making it into the final of the EURO 1996.

And the likes of Jan Koller and Tomas Rosicky had great achievements with Borussia Dortmund

This lad wasn`t bad either



Whoops

Lawrence1895

GTR63 wrote: »

This lad wasn`t bad either



Whoops

Thanks...now I'll wreck me head all night, remembering his name...Karel Poborsky, maybe?

WesternZulu

Nedved.

Great player in his day!

RoutineBites

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

That's a brilliant post, fair play. The last bit is especially interesting.

It's very true though. Armenians have a weird level of animosity for the, "long ball" game we play as well, which makes the 2-1 defeat to Ireland all the worse. They'd almost rather see their team play well and lose than play poorly and win. That type of negative philosophy is just non-existent in there coaching structures. Looks like it's finally paying off for them too.

Just in case anyone's interested, Armenia's national team coach, Vardan Minasyan, stepped down on Tuesday. So Armenia are in the market for a replacement. From what I can tell from a few news sites and message boards, (My Armenian is basic. :P)Sergio Markarián a Uruguayan of Armenian descent who recently resigned as Peru manager is probably the fans choice to take over. Michel Der Zakarian is another popular option but he's unlikely to leave Nantes for the job. (Nantes are fourth in Ligue 1 at the moment, after only being promoted this year.)

There's a worry that Ruben Hayrapetyan (Armenia's John Delaney) is going to appoint a lower calibre coach that he could possibly influence, with Rafael Nazaryan of Armenia U21 being the prime candidate. It's going to be a pretty important decision though and could well decide whether this Armenia team make it or break it. I can't see Hayrapetyan appointing someone like Nazaryan myself. I think that even he realizes that he's got a seriously talented team here, and will hopefully put the interests of Armenian football over his own.

Interestingly, there's been a resounding, "no" to the suggestion of Trap taking over on the forums I've read through. :pac:

764dak

Tbh, international football is getting annoying. There is too much nationalism.

WesternZulu

764dak wrote: »

Tbh, international football is getting annoying. There is too much nationalism.

I'd take nationalism any day of the week ahead of the faked allegiances and badge kissing that players show at club level.

Richard Hillman

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

Indeed, but different teams have a different level of expectation. There isn't a Sunderland fan who has a realistic ambition higher than a Europa cup run within the next eight years for example. Pre 2008 there would not have been a City fan who truly imagined even a Champions League spot within a few years let alone a PL win. But due to our history a lot of Irish fans reckon that under the right manager picking the right players we have, if we get a lucky group draw, the potential to reach the knock out phase of a tournament. Primarily because on paper the likes of Greece, Sweden and Denmark have squads of similar or even inferior strength but have pulled it off. My question being, do the Armenian public think like this and demand this or are they resigned to being at best nearly men for a play off? Is there a Lituhanian Dunphy on TV out there insisting that with the right gaffer they should be in it? Or are these countries resigned to their averageness?

Yes there is Eamonus Dunphkaukas. He once said Lithuanian football is in decline since communism ended and the country became awash with money. In the 1994 World Cup qualifying campaign he threw his pen on the ground and said he was ashamed to be Lithuanian after the 1-0 loss away to Albania.

losthorizon

RoutineBites wrote: »

It's very true though. Armenians have a weird level of animosity for the, "long ball" game we play as well, which makes the 2-1 defeat to Ireland all the worse. They'd almost rather see their team play well and lose than play poorly and win. That type of negative philosophy is just non-existent in there coaching structures. Looks like it's finally paying off for them too.

Just in case anyone's interested, Armenia's national team coach, Vardan Minasyan, stepped down on Tuesday. So Armenia are in the market for a replacement. From what I can tell from a few news sites and message boards, (My Armenian is basic. :P)Sergio Markarián a Uruguayan of Armenian descent who recently resigned as Peru manager is probably the fans choice to take over. Michel Der Zakarian is another popular option but he's unlikely to leave Nantes for the job. (Nantes are fourth in Ligue 1 at the moment, after only being promoted this year.)

There's a worry that Ruben Hayrapetyan (Armenia's John Delaney) is going to appoint a lower calibre coach that he could possibly influence, with Rafael Nazaryan of Armenia U21 being the prime candidate. It's going to be a pretty important decision though and could well decide whether this Armenia team make it or break it. I can't see Hayrapetyan appointing someone like Nazaryan myself. I think that even he realizes that he's got a seriously talented team here, and will hopefully put the interests of Armenian football over his own.

Interestingly, there's been a resounding, "no" to the suggestion of Trap taking over on the forums I've read through. :pac:

I've been to Armenia myself for 10 days. I think it was five years ago now. TBH they seemed to be a country more interested in Greco-Roman wrestling than football.

As a nation I suppose Hungary is the classic example of a national team fallen from Grace. This though really had to do with politics and the events of the uprising of the 1950s then anything to do with football per se. Some regard the Mighty Magyars as the greatest football team ever only beaten by being kicked to **** by the Germans in an earlier match and the fact that the Germans probably were on drugs.

If the Russians had not invaded Hungary would probably still be a major power in World football instead of disappearing completely.