Standard Deviation

Kurt Godel

joey100 wrote: »

Have you been doing the sea swims without a wetsuit kurt?? Any plans for the Dun laoghaire or Liffey Swim?

Yes, they are non-wetsuit (if you want a result). To be honest its a lot better and purer swimming without the suit. If I want to pass someone in a Tri race (during the second half of the swim) I add a slight glide to my stroke and this usually speeds things up, as the suit holds your body position so high. That doesn't work in the skins races, passing someone requires a lot more effort and it can lead to some great battles. I love it:)

Deffo Liffey Swim, probably DL too. Thinking of either yourself? (you need four previous SI races in 2014 completed to be able to enter either)

joey100

Nope, no chance! not this year anyway, would like to do the Liffey swim at some stage but don't really have the build of an open water swimmer!

Kurt Godel

joey100 wrote: »

Nope, no chance! not this year anyway, would like to do the Liffey swim at some stage but don't really have the build of an open water swimmer!

You're young yet. Plenty of time to develop a middle-aged spread of insulating blubber;)

Kurt Godel

Wed pm 30 mins tether

The backyardpool is refilled, it felt lovely and warm. It will be hard to get used to the tether again- I'm using a PB to help keep the legs up, but with the absence of forward momentum, there is no lift under the body, so even with the PB its hard to keep a good position.

5*(3mins catch and pull, 1 min breast)
5mins kick
2*(1.5mins catch and pull, 1 min breast)

Dory Dory

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Wed pm 30 mins tether

The backyardpool is refilled, it felt lovely and warm. It will be hard to get used to the tether again- I'm using a PB to help keep the legs up, but with the absence of forward momentum, there is no lift under the body, so even with the PB its hard to keep a good position.

5*(3mins catch and pull, 1 min breast)
5mins kick
2*(1.5mins catch and pull, 1 min breast)

Ohhhh, I bet not.

But seriously...where is the tether again? Around your waist? I was chatting with some of the gals at the tri camp and they've started doing this bungee-cord-around-the-ankles thing that they say is horrid...so it must be good, right?

Kurt Godel

Dory Dory wrote: »

Ohhhh, I bet not.

But seriously...where is the tether again? Around your waist? I was chatting with some of the gals at the tri camp and they've started doing this bungee-cord-around-the-ankles thing that they say is horrid...so it must be good, right?

It's meant to go round the waist. I tried it before round the ankles but I don't think to much success- perhaps I didn't use the PB that time.

I sent you a little gift in the post... expect to be bombarded with questions on how to use a tether in 5 to 6 working days;)

Dory Dory

Kurt Godel wrote: »

It's meant to go round the waist. I tried it before round the ankles but I don't think to much success- perhaps I didn't use the PB that time.

I sent you a little gift in the post... expect to be bombarded with questions on how to use a tether in 5 to 6 working days;)

A little gift!!?? For moi??? Oh you do spoil me so.

I get the impression the ankle cord is something like this....

http://www.swimmersworld.com.au/stationary-cords-c12/finis-stationary-cord-ankle-strap-p48/

Video here...and the super good news is you can practice your butterfly with it!!!

Kurt Godel

You deserve spoiling, you're my number one reason for reading this forum! So helpful for all questions: I consider any gift to be a selfish investment in my own swimming

The waist and ankle tethers look to work on a very similar principle, by that video above. In fact, I'd wonder is there any difference between them at all? Check how hard the girl is working to maintain position in the back stroke especially. Ya gotta work those legs to keep 'em high!

Kurt Godel

Thurs 2,400m pool

3*400 off 7:00 tumble turn (in 6:55, 6:20, 6:45)
30 sec extra
2*400 off 7:00 touch turn (in 6:25, 6:40)
400 warm down

First time back in the pool for a few weeks. It felt strange to turn at the wall. My tumbles are getting better, but still need a lot of practice. The 6:20 felt good, like I was just going steady-hard rather than anywhere close to flat out. I still find touch turns easier, but the old foot cramp made itself known during these. I'll have to get the tumbles perfected.

Kurt Godel

Wed PM 2,600m pool

21*100 off 1:45
200m easy
250m hypoxic
50m easy

I've missed the Masters group for a few weeks, and hence am out of the loop. I turned up at the pool tonight, but I think they were doing OW somewhere. Ah well, may as well make the most of it. The 100's were done to fail, which was number 21 (1:45 dead on). The first was in on 1:25, then 1:3x's, before drifting to 1:40 for the last few. It was a good exercise in swimming on tired arms. I'm thinking less about technique these days, and more about maintaining speed no matter what. So by the end I was largely breathing on 2, but I reckon the form book can be thrown out if pace isn't suffering.

All touch turns, as my cramping foot will testify to.

Dory Dory

Psst...little boy. The key to maintaining speed is to not start out too fast. That 1:25 was too hot. You'd better serve your goal by thinking in terms of the entire distance you are swimming (2100 meters, in this case), then swimming at a pace you feel you can reasonably sustain for that distance. If your goal is to average 1:35/100 for that 2100 meters, then start out at 1:35 and keep it even.

Kurt Godel

Dory Dory wrote: »

Psst...little boy. The key to maintaining speed is to not start out too fast. That 1:25 was too hot. You'd better serve your goal by thinking in terms of the entire distance you are swimming (2100 meters, in this case), then swimming at a pace you feel you can reasonably sustain for that distance. If your goal is to average 1:35/100 for that 2100 meters, then start out at 1:35 and keep it even.

Can't disagree with any of that! To be honest, I had intended just doing whatever was written on the board tonight- I just wanted to swim on tired arms. Once I was solo I figured just do 100's to fail, figuring I'd get to 15. Everything after was gravy:)

Kurt Godel

Dory Dory wrote: »

Psst...little boy. The key to maintaining speed is to not start out too fast. That 1:25 was too hot. You'd better serve your goal by thinking in terms of the entire distance you are swimming (2100 meters, in this case), then swimming at a pace you feel you can reasonably sustain for that distance. If your goal is to average 1:35/100 for that 2100 meters, then start out at 1:35 and keep it even.

Hmm, I misread what you wrote last night, and just looking back over it today I have a question (my "free gifts" always come with a heavy price tag;)). My half-baked intention last night was to keep to 1:35 pace (+/- 1 sec) for as many reps of 100 as I could, on tired arms. The intention was to see what is necessary "form-wise" to keep to this pace (can I breath on 2 all the time; do I need to kick in bursts; is greater cadence needed, etc). Basically trying out a few technique things and seeing if speed doesn't suffer. The intention was to mimic the latter part of an OW race, when I'm breathing as needed for oxygen, or upping cadence to pass someone, or kicking in bursts to "rest" the arms a bit. Whatever it takes to finish the race strongly.

Q1: Does this even make any sense?

Q2: Assuming it does, what would be more useful, what I did, or 1,500m straight holding 1:40 pace (I would have been tired to hold any faster/longer)

Dory Dory

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Hmm, I misread what you wrote last night, and just looking back over it today I have a question (my "free gifts" always come with a heavy price tag;)). My half-baked intention last night was to keep to 1:35 pace (+/- 1 sec) for as many reps of 100 as I could, on tired arms. The intention was to see what is necessary "form-wise" to keep to this pace (can I breath on 2 all the time; do I need to kick in bursts; is greater cadence needed, etc). Basically trying out a few technique things and seeing if speed doesn't suffer. The intention was to mimic the latter part of an OW race, when I'm breathing as needed for oxygen, or upping cadence to pass someone, or kicking in bursts to "rest" the arms a bit. Whatever it takes to finish the race strongly.

Q1: Does this even make any sense?

Q2: Assuming it does, what would be more useful, what I did, or 1,500m straight holding 1:40 pace (I would have been tired to hold any faster/longer)

This is funny....as I almost wrote you back last night to tell you if you want to swim on tired arms, just swim longer.

Q1: no.

Q2: neither.



As always, I yield to the master himself, interested....but here are my thoughts...

First, I do understand your goals with the above set, but I think there's a better way to achieve them. Next, to finish a race strongly, you have to start the race smartly - i.e., not at a pace that can't be sustained. Perhaps it would help if you think in terms of what you learned while training and running marathons as I have found that many (all?) of those distance/endurance running principles apply to distance/endurance swimming.

But, if your ultimate goal is to maintain an average race pace of 1:35/100 (or is it 1:40/100?) (and what is the distance you'd be training for to race?), then I'd suggest you substitute the set you did last night with a series of 100s at that goal pace (1:35 or 1:40) with 10 seconds rest between 100s (so either off 1:45 or 1:50)...and I'd probably make the total distance of that swim set to be about 70/75% of the race distance you are training for. Meaning, if your race is 5,000 meters, then the set should contain 35 to 38 100s. You'll have to be disciplined from the start and hold back...each 100 must be in on 1:35 (or 1:40) with not much +/-....and remember, you are not swimming a set of 100s, but rather you are swimming a set of the total distance of 100s.....and you are learning pace discipline so you can finish a race strong!

And as a side note (purely because it just popped in my head...and because I know you will appreciate it), while you were away with the naked beach people in France, I was at tri camp and we did a session of 100 x 100s (not sure if you saw that post or not). Any way, while to the naked (there's that word again!) eye some might question its merit - why do 100 x 100s? what benefit is there? - I can tell you there was great benefit to me. No doubt it was a session of strength and endurance, but more than that, the challenge and completion of it was confidence building - confidence that is used in training, and will be used in racing. I think anyone who completes this session understands what I'm talking about. (seed planted )

Kurt Godel

Great answer Dory! I'll scribble down my thoughts to each point:

Dory Dory wrote: »

This is funny....as I almost wrote you back last night to tell you if you want to swim on tired arms, just swim longer.

Q1: no.

Q2: neither.



As always, I yield to the master himself, interested....but here are my thoughts...

First off, you don't have to yield to anyone! That's no disrespect to interested, rather recognition that this forum is a talking pot of idea's and opinions. I'm always happy to get your view on swimmy things, (or anyone else's), but if I want unyieldable advice I'd probably need to pay for one-on-one coach training. Maybe in a few months...

Dory Dory wrote: »

First, I do understand your goals with the above set, but I think there's a better way to achieve them. Next, to finish a race strongly, you have to start the race smartly - i.e., not at a pace that can't be sustained. Perhaps it would help if you think in terms of what you learned while training and running marathons as I have found that many (all?) of those distance/endurance running principles apply to distance/endurance swimming.

To use that marathon running analogy, finishing the race at a pace above what your Central Governor says. I did this in last Sundays race, went off faster than I might have otherwise, and finished stronger by digging deeper than I might have thought possible. I guess there's a sweet spot for pacing, just holding yourself under the red line and being able to give it everything towards the end. I found this a lot easier when run training and racing; with swimming there's a larger drop-off if correct form isn't maintained. If I disagree with you on the crossover between run and swim endurance training benefits, its probably because I need to work harder than you at holding good form (so more drills, reps, toys, needed; whereas you might hold form more naturally. I dunno).

Dory Dory wrote: »

But, if your ultimate goal is to maintain an average race pace of 1:35/100 (or is it 1:40/100?) (and what is the distance you'd be training for to race?), then I'd suggest you substitute the set you did last night with a series of 100s at that goal pace (1:35 or 1:40) with 10 seconds rest between 100s (so either off 1:45 or 1:50)...and I'd probably make the total distance of that swim set to be about 70/75% of the race distance you are training for. Meaning, if your race is 5,000 meters, then the set should contain 35 to 38 100s. You'll have to be disciplined from the start and hold back...each 100 must be in on 1:35 (or 1:40) with not much +/-....and remember, you are not swimming a set of 100s, but rather you are swimming a set of the total distance of 100s.....and you are learning pace discipline so you can finish a race strong!

That's great advice and explains things perfectly. I'm aiming for the 5 Kilometre Swim Ireland National Championship on 23rd August (the 10k option is probably a bridge too far), and would be very happy to maintain 1:40/1:45 pace for a non-wetsuit lake swim. I'll try and do 75% distance at this pace soon.

Dory Dory wrote: »

And as a side note (purely because it just popped in my head...and because I know you will appreciate it), while you were away with the naked beach people in France, I was at tri camp and we did a session of 100 x 100s (not sure if you saw that post or not). Any way, while to the naked (there's that word again!) eye some might question its merit - why do 100 x 100s? what benefit is there? - I can tell you there was great benefit to me. No doubt it was a session of strength and endurance, but more than that, the challenge and completion of it was confidence building - confidence that is used in training, and will be used in racing. I think anyone who completes this session understands what I'm talking about. (seed planted )

100x100!!!:eek: A seed needs water to grow. More water needed... thanks as ever for the great reply!:)

Kurt Godel

Fri 1:30 turbo

Easy/steady spinning

Kurt Godel

Sun 120k hilly bike 24kph average

Tinahely-Aughrim-Macreddin-Glenmalure-Laragh-Wicklow Gap-Hollywood-Baltinglass-Kiltegan-Hacketstown-Tinahely-home

This was the longest bike I've done yet, both in terms of distance and time (5 hours). I had company, so the time just flew by. We started at 8am, headed out the local roads, which only started getting hilly past Macreddin. Which wasn't really hilly at all, considering we next hit the Shay Elliot. Granny ring deployed (and I've a triple), but S still put 3.5 minutes in to me on the climb. I'm a crap climber, whereas he's pretty good on the hills. Down into Laragh, and begin the Wicklow Gap climb. I've never done this before, and to be honest I expected it to be tougher. By now I was starting to hurt, and was glad of the downhill respite to Hollywood. We took turns wheel-sucking along the N81 to Baltinglass, by which time I was in limp-home mode. I was never so glad to get off a bike as when I got home. Endurance isn't my thing, but these long bike spins will have to form a bigger part of my training, if I want to get faster on the bike.

2 gels, one powersauce bar, and 500ml water taken.

Dory Dory

I don't believe your elevation tracking is accurate on your Garmin link. Maybe you need to enable elevation corrections?? Krusty would know.

Dory Dory

Oh...and look at the calories you burned on that 3rd mile!! :eek: 16,712!!! I'm not even going to ask.....

Kurt Godel

Dory Dory wrote: »

I don't believe your elevation tracking is accurate on your Garmin link. Maybe you need to enable elevation corrections?? Krusty would know.

Ok I clicked a button and the elevation gain went from 15,433m to 1,246m. I think the first figure is a more accurate "feels like" 15,433m gained, so lets stick with that;)

In other news I had entered for the Lost Sheep Half IM at the end of August, and I doubt I'll do it now. Endurance isn't my bag, as todays spin shows. Maybe I'll do a Double Oly some time, but 1,900m for a HIM swim won't really cut it for me....

interested

"500ml water taken"

None of my business your height, weight .. but on that parcour, in the heat that we're enjoying at the moment ... thats no where near enough water ... mind how you go
Nice spin ... how come you guys didnt do Slieve Maan on route north ?

mossym

interested wrote: »

"500ml water taken"

None of my business your height, weight .. but on that parcour, in the heat that we're enjoying at the moment ... thats no where near enough water ... mind how you go
Nice spin ... how come you guys didnt do Slieve Maan on route north ?

especially if you were hurting that much. few weeks back i did the rok cycle on about 300ml of water and a coffee, 6 hours on the bike, but it was easy effort the whole way around.

tougher 115km spin yesterday i went through 1.5L of water and was glad of every bit of it

500ml for a spin you were hurting on seems low. i do believe in drink to thirst though

Oryx

interested wrote: »

"500ml water taken"

None of my business your height, weight .. but on that parcour, in the heat that we're enjoying at the moment ... thats no where near enough water ... mind how you go
Nice spin ... how come you guys didnt do Slieve Maan on route north ?

I hadnt noticed that, but I did the same distance, in the same weather, I'm smaller, but I drank 1 litre and a coffee - and at that I had run out of water on the way home. I ate more too. Just to note a sign of impending bonk and dehydration can be getting very uncomfortable on the bike.

Kurt Godel

I just checked my water bottle- over 100ml left in it, so I drank just under 400ml yesterday...

How much water is needed? I wasn't thirsty at any time, took sips regularly, and my pee wasn't excessively yellow when I got home (yellow/orange is a marker for dehydration). Any tiredness on the bike was from sore leg muscles rather than "bonking" as such. Bear in mind that fat cells contain a lot of water, so it might just be that I've got copious reservoirs to draw from (89kg and 183cm).

interested wrote: »

Nice spin ... how come you guys didnt do Slieve Maan on route north ?

Because we're not stupid? Admittedly when we set out I was worried my buddy would choose this route, but since he didn't, I kept my mouth shut I've done the Maan/Elliot double before and its a killer!

interested

"How much water is needed?"

Everyone is different on this score.
Drink before thirsty, eat before hungry ...and finish like you could do more - however, all depends on the session and objectives of course.

Kurt Godel

interested wrote: »

"How much water is needed?"

Everyone is different on this score.
Drink before thirsty, eat before hungry ...and finish like you could do more - however, all depends on the session and objectives of course.

Back when I used do some long runs, there was a lot of debate amongst hill runners on how much water was needed. I started to bring less and less water (and food) with me, the objective was to train your body to become more efficient at burning fat (metabolizing the energy from fat releases the water molecules used to bind it together IIRC). It got to the stage where I would do pretty long runs with little or no water.

I learned the hard way from doing this just what "bonking" really is... being unable to move when 1.5km from home, and taking 30 mins to crawl that final distance. Sipping minimal amounts of water seems to work for me, but I absolutely take your point about being session dependant. Yesterdays long spin was aiming to get an endurance benefit which hopefully will kick-start my shorter, faster bike (and run) races.

Ironically (I guess), I would drink a lot more water in the pool, at least 500ml if we were doing a hard hour.

mossym

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Ironically (I guess), I would drink a lot more water in the pool, at least 500ml if we were doing a hard hour.

That surprises me. not that you drink in the pool, but that you would drink more than on the bike, given the 3 to 4x duration increase on the bike

i;ve never used a drink in the pool, even sessions over an hour, and 95% of these will be done fasted as i go first thing in the morning

running, only ever drank during races, except for one long training run in the real heat last year where i had a bottle of water. 90 minute long runs i would never have water with me

bike, usually throw a bottle on the bike, and drink to thirst. but on a harder workout over 2 hours i'd go through a 750ml bottle at least. easier spin might not.

it's horses for courses though, i see my neighbour go off on a 5km run with one of those grip bottles full, and it's empty when she gets back.

i rekon drink to thirst when the sessions are easy/steady, but when they are tough i try to stick ahead of the game, on the bike at least

Kurt Godel

mossym wrote: »

That surprises me. not that you drink in the pool, but that you would drink more than on the bike, given the 3 to 4x duration increase on the bike

i;ve never used a drink in the pool, even sessions over an hour, and 95% of these will be done fasted as i go first thing in the morning

running, only ever drank during races, except for one long training run in the real heat last year where i had a bottle of water. 90 minute long runs i would never have water with me

bike, usually throw a bottle on the bike, and drink to thirst. but on a harder workout over 2 hours i'd go through a 750ml bottle at least. easier spin might not.

it's horses for courses though, i see my neighbour go off on a 5km run with one of those grip bottles full, and it's empty when she gets back.

i rekon drink to thirst when the sessions are easy/steady, but when they are tough i try to stick ahead of the game, on the bike at least

If I do a hard hour on the turbo, its more like 1-1.5L of water taken on board. If I do an easy straight 3km in the pool, I'd usually have no water. Intensity="more water needed", at least in my case.

For a hard pool session: 750ml water, pinch of salt, teaspoon of sugar, 50ml quinine (tonic water) to help stop cramp.

mossym

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Intensity="more water needed", at least in my case.

in that i think we're 100% agreed, and i reckon most here would be the same

Kurt Godel

Mon 10km easy run

Up around my old faithful Hillbrook loop, in 53 mins. It's very muggy out there, but the views make up for any discomfort. Legs didn't feel too bad, but my lack of hill fitness is striking. I used be able to bound up these hills; that will take some practice now.