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Now, with mod hat off, as I understand it, owners of animals can carry out certain procedures on their animals, as long as they are sufficiently competent and have been instructed on how to carry out such procedures by a vet.
That is paraphrased, my interpretation of the Veterinary Practice (Amendment) Act 2012, Section 54.
The same actually allows for a farmer to carry out a wide range of procedures if the animal's life is in danger and there is no qualified help immediately available.
What procedures are okay for an average, pre-taught owner to carry out are not listed in either the 2005 nor the 2012 Acts, and correctly so imo. I assume this means that is down to the discretion of the vet who prescribes the medication, eg the vaccine, also needles etc.
That vet would, I assume, have to be able to justify why he/she gave discretion for this animal, its owner, and the procedure in question, if it came to it.
As has been said already, a vaccination cert is not worth the paper it's written on if the dog (for example) is vaccinated by a non-vet.
The legislation appears to allow for a non-vet to carry out procedures on their own animals, but not on animals owned by others, and certainly not for reward.
POMs and vPOMs should only be available by prescription... And this, I think, is where some pharmacies are potentially falling foul of the law, because some of them dispense POMs with no prescription, vaccines being prime amongst these.
As for the laws being upheld, well, I think it's poor advice to allow someone to break the law just because it doesn't appear to be enforced. In any case, I know one vet who has been prosecuted under this legislation for transgressions relating to vaccinating dogs.0 -
Oh for god's sake!
You try to provide information to further a debate and this is the thanks...
Because now the crux of the matter comes down to whether one person can prove outright to you with the precise subsection of a subsection? May I suggest YOU do the research rather than pettishly waiting for someone to prove it to you? I'm done. Contact the Veterinary Council if you're that bothered.
You made a point above that something was breaking the law and illegal.
I've asked you to back up that claim because I am interested in knowing if you are correct.
Your first reply was to point me to a piece of legislation which made no reference to vaccinations. Your second was to say that the 2012 Act changed the law and you hadn't studied it since college. 2012 was only a year ago. Your third is now to state that you haven't the time to find the information and that I should find the information to back up YOUR point.
I'm sure you can see from the above why I remain sceptical.
If you are indeed correct then I am aware of a vet that is breaking the law. That is why I asked the question as I have explained.0 -
Your tone sucked, Lemlin. Why would I be bothered helping you any further, given your attitude?
Suggesting that I "scarpered" rather than give you an answer immediately?
Intimating that I'm somehow deficient for not remembering the minutiae rather than the broad strokes after a break from college? I take umbrage at that. I'm pretty sure you don't have a photographic memory either.
That's why I'm out. Good luck to you, sir!0 -
You made a point above that something was breaking the law and illegal.
I've asked you to back up that claim because I am interested in knowing if you are correct.
Your first reply was to point me to a piece of legislation which made no reference to vaccinations. Your second was to say that the 2012 Act changed the law and you hadn't studied it since college. 2012 was only a year ago. Your third is now to state that you haven't the time to find the information and that I should find the information to back up YOUR point.
I'm sure you can see from the above why I remain sceptical.
If you are indeed correct then I am aware of a vet that is breaking the law. That is why I asked the question as I have explained.
Lemlin, you're the very poster that won't register your lab pups with the Ikc because it cuts 'unnecessary costs'. The last couple of pages here suggest that you consider getting the pups boosters from the vet as a similar 'unnecessary cost' as all you are trying to ascertain is whether it is legal to administer them yourself. <snip> Cut corners every which way to keep costs down and ship the pups out at a discounted price (ie cheaper than responsible breeders)
Mod note: I've edited out comments here which cast unfair aspersions on lemlin's actions as a breeder. I also feel that lemlin's enquiries re legalities of self-vaxing pups has been misconstrued: as I read it, lemlin is asking the question out of interest, rather than as a means to produce pups for less money.0 -
borderlinemeath wrote: »Lemlin, you're the very poster that won't register your lab pups with the Ikc because it cuts 'unnecessary costs'. The last couple of pages here suggest that you consider getting the pups boosters from the vet as a similar 'unnecessary cost' as all you are trying to ascertain is whether it is legal to administer them yourself. <snip> Cut corners every which way to keep costs down and ship the pups out at a discounted price (ie cheaper than responsible breeders)
I have no wish to administer boosters myself. As I said, the person I know pays their vet €15 a shot. IMO he is being ripped off because I paid €160 to Cavan Pet Hospital in Corlurgan in Cavan to have all nine of my pups vet checked and inoculated. That was a €70 consultation fee and €10 an inoculation.
All of the pups were weighed and fully checked over for heart conditions etc. I also treated them for any possible fleas with Advantage 100 for dogs 4kg to 10kg at 7 weeks and wormed them every two weeks from birth with Drontal Worming Solution. They were given 1ml for every 1kg as prescribed by the vet.
The pups were given to their new owners with full vaccination certs. I wouldn't do it any other way and I take great offence that you would try to stipulate otherwise.
The vet in question, a young vet who had just moved from Tyrone where she told me Huskys are very common, said my litter was one of the best cared for she had seen in some time. Not one had any health condition and all were good strong pups at 8 weeks.
I ask the question re the boosters because, as I said, people in this country are too fond of saying this breaks the law or that breaks the law. I have raised a question and I am yet to get an acceptable answer. I ask it because I wish to inform my friend that not only is his vet ripping him off but he is also breaking the law. That is if he is breaking the law and I have yet to be given proof that his vet is.
As for my opinion re IKC papers, as I have said, they are not always necessary. In saying that, all of my litters are registered because generally some buyers do wish to have their pups registered. Others do not. I have NEVER said that I won't register pups with the IKC. Quite the opposite in fact. I simply allow people a choice. For example, in this litter, four of the nine people wanted their pup IKC registered. The other five did not.
One lady for example was buying the Labrador for her 8 and 12 year old daughters who had just lost a King Charles in the Summer. Do an 8 and 12 year old require a dog that is IKC registered?
Does me giving people a choice demonise me? It seems to to some on this forum. It's not as if I am trying to deliberately not register litters to overbreed a dog.
All of my buyers were also given written contracts with all my contact details for future reference. They were also given a period of time to have their pup checked over by their own vet for their own piece of mind and a copy of both the dam and sire's four generation pedigree certs.
Also, I'd point out again that I can't be a backyard breeder. I don't have a backyard for a start. My house is built on an acre of land and is part of a farm of 40 acres overall. The nearest house is five minutes walk away. Therefore I would see my breeding facilities and area as far greater than people on here who breed dogs in housing estates.
Oh, and to quote another poster on here:IKC reg means nothing, bar that is shows the parentage of the pup, nothing more. It guarantees absol nothing else. Its only a piece of paper to prove the pup is registered and the parents are. Any eejit can register pups once both the parents are, but it doesnt mean the pup is well bred or that the parents are health tested.
I agree totally with the above yet I guarantee if I said it I'd be attacked on here. You folks need to drop the siege mentality.
I don't see what I've done here other than ask someone to back up a point they made.0 -
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Your tone sucked, Lemlin. Why would I be bothered helping you any further, given your attitude?
Suggesting that I "scarpered" rather than give you an answer immediately?
Intimating that I'm somehow deficient for not remembering the minutiae rather than the broad strokes after a break from college? I take umbrage at that. I'm pretty sure you don't have a photographic memory either.
That's why I'm out. Good luck to you, sir!
Perhaps I did go over the top. For that I apologise and I apologise for the use of the word "scarpered".
My only excuse is that I work in a legal area and I'm very used to people and their broad ideas of what is "illegal".
If someone makes a point and claims something, I expect them to have the relevant legislation to back that up. It's part of the environment I operate in every day.
Perhaps a better way to resolve the issue than to declare yourself out would be to prove your point?0 -
I have no wish to administer boosters myself. As I said, the person I know pays their vet €15 a shot. IMO he is being ripped off because I paid €160 to Cavan Pet Hospital in Corlurgan in Cavan to have all nine of my pups vet checked and inoculated. That was a €70 consultation fee and €10 an inoculation.
All of the pups were weighed and fully checked over for heart conditions etc. I also treated them for any possible fleas with Advantage 100 for dogs 4kg to 10kg at 7 weeks and wormed them every two weeks from birth with Drontal Worming Solution. They were given 1ml for every 1kg as prescribed by the vet.
The pups were given to their new owners with full vaccination certs. I wouldn't do it any other way and I take great offence that you would try to stipulate otherwise.
When a poster in one thread talks about cutting 'unnecessary costs' and then in another questions the legality and validity of administering boosters bought from a pharmacy then it is very easy to come to a conclusion such as I did and I'm not going to apologise for it. If you wanted to you could have been clearer in your posts, knowing that the contentious thread where you stated you would cut costs was only recently.The vet in question, a young vet who had just moved from Tyrone where she told me Huskys are very common, said my litter was one of the best cared for she had seen in some time. Not one had any health condition and all were good strong pups at 8 weeks.
I ask the question re the boosters because, as I said, people in this country are too fond of saying this breaks the law or that breaks the law. I have raised a question and I am yet to get an acceptable answer. I ask it because I wish to inform my friend that not only is his vet ripping him off but he is also breaking the law. That is if he is breaking the law and I have yet to be given proof that his vet is.
People in this country? You mean posters that work with animals in vets and rescues every day? Who have to work within the confines of the legislation? IMO 'people in this country' are far too fond of breaking laws, the more people that actually say, 'hold on, that's illegal' the better.As for my opinion re IKC papers, as I have said, they are not always necessary. In saying that, all of my litters are registered because generally some buyers do wish to have their pups registered. Others do not. I have NEVER said that I won't register pups with the IKC. Quite the opposite in fact. I simply allow people a choice. For example, in this litter, four of the nine people wanted their pup IKC registered. The other five did not.
One lady for example was buying the Labrador for her 8 and 12 year old daughters who had just lost a King Charles in the Summer. Do an 8 and 12 year old require a dog that is IKC registered?
Does me giving people a choice demonise me? It seems to to some on this forum. It's not as if I am trying to deliberately not register litters to overbreed a dog.
You really don't get it do you? This is the loophole that byb/puppy farmers use. 'Ah sure why bother if it's just a pet, you don't need to register it'. Enough convincing and the whole litter goes out unregistered and they can put the bitch out to pup again far too soon. You giving people 'a choice' as you put it, will give unwitting dog owners a mindset of 'ah it means nothing so why bother'. That IKC registration, as useless as it may be for most people, is the only thing that links the breeder to the self regulatory body and for responsible breeders their reputation means a lot more than giving people 'a choice'All of my buyers were also given written contracts with all my contact details for future reference. They were also given a period of time to have their pup checked over by their own vet for their own piece of mind and a copy of both the dam and sire's four generation pedigree certs.
But some of them went without registration. And those buyers will tell other buyers that it's not necessary and when somebody else goes to buy a pup it won't ring any alarm bells because it's not registered. While you're doing most things right, you're still sending out the wrong message regarding registration.Also, I'd point out again that I can't be a backyard breeder. I don't have a backyard for a start. My house is built on an acre of land and is part of a farm of 40 acres overall. The nearest house is five minutes walk away. Therefore I would see my breeding facilities and area as far greater than people on here who breed dogs in housing estates.
C'mon Lemlin, you know as well as anybody that 'back yard breeder' is a phrase used to describe a breeder who has a couple of dogs of the same breed, mates them, doesn't bother with things like health testing, registration etc. It's not about the size of the garden:rolleyes:. <snip>
If I was in the market for buying a puppy, it wouldn't matter an iota whether the dog was in a housing estate or out in the country. The pups should be reared in the house, exposed to everyday noises, people traffic, alarm clocks, doorbells, vacuum cleaners etc to ensure that they are exposed to them in their fear imprint period of life. In fact if somebody boasted about their 'breeding facilities' on their 40 acre farm it would set alarm bells ringing as I would assume that the pups would have been whelped and reared in a farm outbuilding, certainly not the best start to life and detrimental to their mental health.Oh, and to quote another poster on here:
I agree totally with the above yet I guarantee if I said it I'd be attacked on here. You folks need to drop the siege mentality.
I don't see what I've done here other than ask someone to back up a point they made.
2 pages of asking for clarification and then a sly dig made about scarpering. Bearing in mind that the registration thread is fresh in peoples minds, you can't blame posters for putting 2+2 together and getting 5.0 -
As I've explained, I work in a legal environment everyday. Therefore I am used to asking people for relevant proof and legislation when they say something is illegal. That is the "people in this country" I was refereeing to. People I deal with everyday in general. Did I say at any time I was referring to people involved in working with animals? No, that is yet another incorrect assumption you made.
I also explained why exactly I was asking the question but perhaps it's easy to presume people have agendas on here rather than trust what they state.
There is a big difference between "unnecessary costs" like IKC papers and the health and well being of the pup.
If you recall on the "contentious thread", as you put it, I had it put to me that registering pups with the IKC meant that the breeder was keeping to the IKC breeding guidelines. As I said then, these guidelines are a disgrace and I wouldn't even see them as a minimum standard for breeding.
I also pointed out where I have been in contact with one breed club who pointed me in the direction of a breeder whose dogs had no hip or eye scores yet were being sold for €650. When I asked the breeder about hip scores, I was told that the only hip scores needed were that two dogs in the pedigree were 14 years old and had no issues.
Another 'breeder', a source from the club, was someone breeding for the first time. They had bought a pup through the club and were breeding it for the first time but had paid a high fee to another member of the club for a sire. They were not a club member and they had no health checks for their own dog. The sire and their dog's mother both had health checks. They were charging €650 again. When I asked why the high price when the mother had no health checks, the 'breeder' stated that she was told she was told by the breeder of her own dog and the sire's breeder that she had to charge at least €600 so as not to "devalue their stock".
I managed then to source a pup myself with the necessary tests completed on both parents for €450, albeit from across the border. What's your explanation for that? I'm not going to broadcast the breed club but feel free to pm me. I'd be more than happy to give you the details.
Yet again you continue to try to insult me by stating the pups may have been kept in an outhouse. You're more than welcome to come and see my facilities. You're only in Meath. I'm fifteen minutes over the county border. All buyers came and saw the facilities and only one lady did not purchase a pup of those who visited. That was because she wanted a large show type dog and I explained my Labs will be of the smaller field trial type.
You have your own opinion and I have mine and people breeding in estates certainly sets my alarm bells ringing. Have you seen the size of the average garden in an estate? Not to mention the size of the average house itself. Yes, puppies need socialisation and noise but they also need room to grow and new areas to explore and discover. I also think its vital that they are socialised with other animals and livestock - cats, sheep, hens, cattle for example. Is this done in an estate?
Perhaps you should stop putting 2+2 together and getting 5 then and get off your high horse and actually ask people questions rather than try to label them with tags.
Also, you state:You really don't get it do you? This is the loophole that byb/puppy farmers use. 'Ah sure why bother if it's just a pet, you don't need to register it'. Enough convincing and the whole litter goes out unregistered and they can put the bitch out to pup again far too soon. You giving people 'a choice' as you put it, will give unwitting dog owners a mindset of 'ah it means nothing so why bother'. That IKC registration, as useless as it may be for most people, is the only thing that links the breeder to the self regulatory body and for responsible breeders their reputation means a lot more than giving people 'a choice
But some of them went without registration. And those buyers will tell other buyers that it's not necessary and when somebody else goes to buy a pup it won't ring any alarm bells because it's not registered. While you're doing most things right, you're still sending out the wrong message regarding registration.
I find that an amazing quote from someone who has just mentioned rescues. Dogs leave rescues every day without papers and links to the IKC. So are they sending out the wrong message to people then? It seems to me that you are clutching at straws. If I wasn't informing my buyers of the importance of pedigree, why would I be giving them four generation pedigree certs for both parents?
Also, the wide majority of dogs on sites like Donedeal are IKC registered so does that make them great examples of the breed that won't have health problems? Surely those breeders are linked back to the breed club and IKC like you state if they have IKC papers.
You must also disagree with Andreac who I quoted above. I would agree with her that IKC registration means nothing and does not guarantee anything but the parentage of the pup. As she so eloquently put it, "any eejit can register pups once both parents are".
And before you even try to jump to more conclusions and state one that one of my pups could end up in a rescue to insult me further, it's written into the contract given and signed that the buyer must contact me if the dog needs to be rehomed at any stage of its life for any reason and I will help with rehoming.
And perhaps there wouldn't have been two pages of me asking for clarification if some had been given.0 -
As I've explained, I work in a legal environment everyday. Therefore I am used to asking people for relevant proof and legislation when they say something is illegal. That is the "people in this country" I was refereeing to. People I deal with everyday in general. Did I say at any time I was referring to people involved in working with animals? No, that is yet another incorrect assumption you made.
The posters who did state that there was an illegality do work with animals every day.I also explained why exactly I was asking the question but perhaps it's easy to presume people have agendas on here rather than trust what they state.
Only after I posted my initial post stating that you weren't doing your reputation any favours, as it looked as if you were questioning the relevence of any old joe soap administering boosters.There is a big difference between "unnecessary costs" like IKC papers and the health and well being of the pup.
If you recall on the "contentious thread", as you put it, I had it put to me that registering pups with the IKC meant that the breeder was keeping to the IKC breeding guidelines. As I said then, these guidelines are a disgrace and I wouldn't even see them as a minimum standard for breeding.
That they may be, but they are still a step that puppy farmers and byb will do their best to avoid, for cost purposes and to overbreed the bitch.I also pointed out where I have been in contact with one breed club who pointed me in the direction of a breeder whose dogs had no hip or eye scores yet were being sold for €650. When I asked the breeder about hip scores, I was told that the only hip scores needed were that two dogs in the pedigree were 14 years old and had no issues.
Another 'breeder', a source from the club, was someone breeding for the first time. They had bought a pup through the club and were breeding it for the first time but had paid a high fee to another member of the club for a sire. They were not a club member and they had no health checks for their own dog. The sire and their dog's mother both had health checks. They were charging €650 again. When I asked why the high price when the mother had no health checks, the 'breeder' stated that she was told she was told by the breeder of her own dog and the sire's breeder that she had to charge at least €600 so as not to "devalue their stock".
I managed then to source a pup myself with the necessary tests completed on both parents for €450, albeit from across the border. What's your explanation for that? I'm not going to broadcast the breed club but feel free to pm me. I'd be more than happy to give you the details.
I don't need to know the breed club and this is aside from the initial boosters/registration point so I'm not going to get into another debate.Yet again you continue to try to insult me by stating the pups may have been kept in an outhouse. You're more than welcome to come and see my facilities. You're only in Meath. I'm fifteen minutes over the county border. All buyers came and saw the facilities and only one lady did not purchase a pup of those who visited. That was because she wanted a large show type dog and I explained my Labs will be of the smaller field trial type.
Seriously? You go on about a 40 acre farm and 'breeding facilities'. Nobody who is going to breed needs 'breeding facilities' other than a whelping box and space indoors for the mother and pups. A secure garden is plenty adequate for a puppy for the first 8 weeks of life.You have your own opinion and I have mine and people breeding in estates certainly sets my alarm bells ringing. Have you seen the size of the average garden in an estate? Not to mention the size of the average house itself. Yes, puppies need socialisation and noise but they also need room to grow and new areas to explore and discover. I also think its vital that they are socialised with other animals and livestock - cats, sheep, hens, cattle for example. Is this done in an estate?
Depends, I don't think I would be as confident letting partly vaccinated pups out with livestock etc. Why give them exposure to ticks, fleas and other parasites? Maybe at 12 weeks when they're fully vaccinated but not any younger. And as you say yourself, some of yours are going as family pets, so the majority of socialization needs to be household noises and people of all shapes and sizes.Perhaps you should stop putting 2+2 together and getting 5 then and get off your high horse and actually ask people questions rather than try to label them with tags.
I only go on your posts. Again it wasn't until <snip> you stated you worked in a legal environment and that your questioning came from you being used to asking for verification in your line of work. Perhaps you should have stated that in some of your earlier posts and I wouldn't have to reach my own conclusions as to the nature of your queries.I find that an amazing quote from someone who has just mentioned rescues. Dogs leave rescues every day without papers and links to the IKC. So are they sending out the wrong message to people then? It seems to me that you are clutching at straws. If I wasn't informing my buyers of the importance of pedigree, why would I be giving them four generation pedigree certs for both parents?
I think it's you who are clutching at straws here Lemlin. You know full well that rescue dogs don't have paperwork because a lot of them come through as strays and lost dogs. People who take dogs from pounds and rescues do so because they want to save a dog from possible euthanasia or want to give a rescue dog a home. The rescue gets a donation that goes towards their costs rather than a seller making money. People have their own reasons for choosing or not choosing rescue dogs just as people have their own reasons for purchasing a puppy, they may want a dog with no history or sometimes they don't pass a rescue homecheck.Also, the wide majority of dogs on sites like Donedeal are IKC registered so does that make them great examples of the breed that won't have health problems? Surely those breeders are linked back to the breed club and IKC like you state if they have IKC papers.
It's certainly not a foolproof system and no, a dog can be IKC registered and have no relevent health checks but again it is another step that byb/puppy farmers will try and cut costs on. Why not register them? Why put that mindset out there that a pup doesn't have to be registered? It's giving the byb/puppy farmers that don't register a bit of validity, that's why. The less people register their pups, the more mainstream it becomes and it's win/win for the puppy farms.You must also disagree with Andreac who I quoted above. I would agree with her that IKC registration means nothing and does not guarantee anything but the parentage of the pup. As she so eloquently put it, "any eejit can register pups once both parents are".
But it's the ones that don't that bother me. Just another corner to cut.And before you even try to jump to more conclusions and state one that one of my pups could end up in a rescue to insult me further, it's written into the contract given and signed that the buyer must contact me if the dog needs to be rehomed at any stage of its life for any reason and I will help with rehoming.
And perhaps there wouldn't have been two pages of me asking for clarification if some had been given.
Do you follow up on all your pups though? How do you know that one might have been lost/stolen, put into the pound without your knowledge? Genuine question, it's something I always wondered. We sent our dogs breeder a christmas card each year for the first few years with a photo of her, but I suppose you're depending on the honesty of others to follow through on your contract.0 -
Just wondering what law is being broken here?
I ask because I know a vet that sells the vaccinations to people for them to
give to the dogs themselves.
I dont know about breaking laws, but a vet will check that a dog is in good health and not incubating a disease before giving a booster, even if its only done with a well trained eye..non qualified folks dont have that expertise and may give the shot when its not prudent to do so..0 -
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I'm on a phone do will need to reply to this bit by bit:The posters who did state that there was an illegality do work with animals every day.
Well I am not aware of where they work and I made a point about people in this country in general, not those posters. As another user said, we've plenty of armchair solicitors in this country.Only after I posted my initial post stating that you weren't doing your reputation any favours, as it looked as if you were questioning the relevence of any old joe soap administering boosters.
Please reread the thread. In my initial post I said my VET administers my vaccinations for €10 a shot as part of a yearly check up. I said I was asking the question because I have a friend who buys them off his vet for €15 which I think is extortionate.
Here's my initial post for reference:
"Just wondering what law is being broken here?
I ask because I know a vet that sells the vaccinations to people for them to give to the dogs themselves.
That said, he sold them to one person I know for €15. My local vet only charges €10 for the vaccination as part of a yearly check up so I informed this person that his vet wasn't exactly giving him value for money."That they may be, but they are still a step that puppy farmers and byb will do their best to avoid, for cost purposes and to overbreed the bitch.
You're extremely naive if you think some back yard breeders don't register their pups. Have a read of Donedeal and the amount of pups being sold IKC registered.I don't need to know the breed club and this is aside from the initial boosters/registration point so I'm not going to get into another debate.
I find this hilarious. Most of our posts now are not about boosters. My point is about breed clubs and health checks which you have made plenty of reference to. When I come back telling you a few home truths though you choose to try and ignore them.
Have you seem the Panorama documentary about breed clubs in the UK? Some are far from the standard bearers you hold them out to be.Seriously? You go on about a 40 acre farm and 'breeding facilities'. Nobody who is going to breed needs 'breeding facilities' other than a whelping box and space indoors for the mother and pups. A secure garden is plenty adequate for a puppy for the first 8 weeks of life.
I wouldn't see a small estate garden as being adequate for my nine Labrador pups. I also don't see how someone living in an estate would have enough room in their 1300 or so square foot house for nine pups and the mother until 8 weeks. Pups need to discover new areas, smells and animals. Not be pent up in a matchbox garden.Depends, I don't think I would be as confident letting partly vaccinated pups out with livestock etc. Why give them exposure to ticks, fleas and other parasites? Maybe at 12 weeks when they're fully vaccinated but not any younger. And as you say yourself, some of yours are going as family pets, so the majority of socialization needs to be household noises and people of all shapes and sizes.
Another hilarious point. You do know a pup could easily pick up any of those parasites from walking in the grass. In a town, a cat could easily be in your estate garden without you knowing at night and carry any of those parasites. And why limit the pup to household noises? Pups are just as likely to go to country people as those who live in estates so socialising them with other animals is vital IMO. Even family pets come across sheep and cattle you know.I only go on your posts. Again it wasn't until after <snip> you stated you worked in a legal environment and that your questioning came from you being used to asking for verification in your line of work. Perhaps you should have stated that in some of your earlier posts and I wouldn't have to reach my own conclusions as to the nature of your queries.
Have a look at my initial post on the thread again. I clearly state the nature of my queries. The post is above word-for-word.It's certainly not a foolproof system and no, a dog can be IKC registered and have no relevent health checks but again it is another step that byb/puppy farmers will try and cut costs on. Why not register them? Why put that mindset out there that a pup doesn't have to be registered? It's giving the byb/puppy farmers that don't register a bit of validity, that's why. The less people register their pups, the more mainstream it becomes and it's win/win for the puppy farms.
I have already explained that I offer people the choice to save on costs for them. Why have a mother buying a dog for her two daughters spend €50 on papers she doesn't need? I'd prefer she spend the €50 on the dog itself. For example, let her put the €50 to getting it neutered in future. That's far better than papers she doesn't need. As I said, I hand any cost saving from not registering back to the new buyer. It makes no difference to me if they want the pup registered or not.
You seem to put a huge over emphasis on IKC papers. As Andreac said, they prove very little and I fully agree with her.But it's the ones that don't that bother me. Just another corner to cut.
I find that hypocritical. It's fine for one poster to say something you reckon but not for another poster to say it.
As I said, I'm not cutting any corners. I fully agree with you that there are people out there that cut corners in this fashion but there are just as many people that get full IKC papers and cut plenty of corners. Donedeal as I said is full of them. These people then charge a premium price on poor buyers because the pup is "IKC registered". IKC papers prove nothing.
Yet people like yourself put a huge emphasis on it and are, if anything, helping these dishonest breeders. You hold out IKC registration as some sort of standard but it is far from it. As said, any eejit can register a pup if both parents are registered,
You are posting false information that papers provide this and that. The fact is, as Andreac said, held out as a reputable breeder by many on here, they provide nothing more than proof of parentage. That you are trying to paint them as something else is dishonest on your part and misleading for people who do not have the necessary knowledge and experience.Do you follow up on all your pups though? How do you know that one might have been lost/stolen, put into the pound without your knowledge? Genuine question, it's something I always wondered. We sent our dogs breeder a christmas card each year for the first few years with a photo of her, but I suppose you're depending on the honesty of others to follow through on your contract.
I have email addresses for all new owners. Most are already emailing me pics of the pups. Even those who don't, I will knock them off an email when the pups are 6 months, 12 months etc. and hope that serves as a reminder that I am here.
I can't force them to keep me informed but I can do my best to maintain communication with them.0 -
Having gone through The veterinary practice act 2005 inc the 2012 amendment act, I can see nothing preventing me vaccinating my stock, using a prescribed vac from our own vet.
Farmers are allowed to under Part 5 section 55 part 3 though. It specifically mentions farmers as unregistered persons, not unregistered persons in general.0 -
Hi Lemlin, I think the part of the act you were looking for is in Part 5 section 54 part one which says a person other than a vet practitioner does not perform any act which forms part of the practice of veterinary medicine. However in an emergency and when there is no vet around, section 55 part 2 allows non registered persons do administer first aid or administer an animal remedy. Part 3 refers to farmers.
So administering a prescribed medicine doesn't qualify as an emergency. Allowing a non registered person to administer it even after prescribing it is dangerous territory for a vet, just say the dog had an adverse reaction after prescribing a drug to an animal the vet never saw.
Having said that I'm sure it happens a quite often with regular clients.
If I've misinterpreted any of this I will post corrections later but that is my understanding anyway.0 -
thegreatgonzo wrote: »
Hi Lemlin, I think the part of the act you were looking for is in Part 5 section 54 part one which says a person other than a vet practitioner does not perform any act which forms part of the practice of veterinary medicine. However in an emergency and when there is no vet around, section 55 part 2 allows non registered persons do administer first aid or administer an animal remedy. Part 3 refers to farmers.
So administering a prescribed medicine doesn't qualify as an emergency. Allowing a non registered person to administer it even after prescribing it is dangerous territory for a vet, just say the dog had an adverse reaction after prescribing a drug to an animal the vet never saw.
Having said that I'm sure it happens a quite often with regular clients.
If I've misinterpreted any of this I will post corrections later but that is my understanding anyway.
Thanks for the reply. Good to get the exact legislation and section pointed out.
I'm actually calling into my own vet tomorrow and I'm going to seek their opinion on this topic.0 -
I'm on a phone do will need to reply to this bit by bit:
Well I am not aware of where they work and I made a point about people in this country in general, not those posters. As another user said, we've plenty of armchair solicitors in this country.
Please reread the thread. In my initial post I said my VET administers my vaccinations for €10 a shot as part of a yearly check up. I said I was asking the question because I have a friend who buys them off his vet for €15 which I think is extortionate.
Here's my initial post for reference:
"Just wondering what law is being broken here?
I ask because I know a vet that sells the vaccinations to people for them to give to the dogs themselves.
That said, he sold them to one person I know for €15. My local vet only charges €10 for the vaccination as part of a yearly check up so I informed this person that his vet wasn't exactly giving him value for money."
You're extremely naive if you think some back yard breeders don't register their pups. Have a read of Donedeal and the amount of pups being sold IKC registered.
You know well that I'm aware that bad breeders also register. But if they can get away without doing so they will. By using your method of giving the buyer 'a choice to cut unnecessary costs' or by bullshiiting that they are registered when they aren't.I find this hilarious. Most of our posts now are not about boosters. My point is about breed clubs and health checks which you have made plenty of reference to. When I come back telling you a few home truths though you choose to try and ignore them.
No, I was sticking to my point about your reputation regarding boosters and registrations. You were the one who went off on a tangent about breed clubs. I never once mentioned them.Have you seem the Panorama documentary about breed clubs in the UK? Some are far from the standard bearers you hold them out to be.
There's bad eggs in every organisation. There's bad eggs in the IKC too but they are still the only organisation that sets standards in the area. No it's not a perfect scenario but I never said it was either. I said it was the area where the likes of byb/puppy farmers will cut corners if they can.I wouldn't see a small estate garden as being adequate for my nine Labrador pups. I also don't see how someone living in an estate would have enough room in their 1300 or so square foot house for nine pups and the mother until 8 weeks. Pups need to discover new areas, smells and animals. Not be pent up in a matchbox garden.
I don't want to start naming posters but there's a few on here that I'm sure live in estates that have had litters of puppies. Now your trying to set a standard on the home that the pups are born in because you think you have the perfect set up?? Having a large house in the country does not make for a good breeder and you inferring as such is probably insulting a lot of people.Another hilarious point. You do know a pup could easily pick up any of those parasites from walking in the grass. In a town, a cat could easily be in your estate garden without you knowing at night and carry any of those parasites. Why limit the pup to household noises? Pups are just as likely to go to country people as those who live in estates so socialising them with other animals is vital IMO. Even family pets come across sheep and cattle you know.
I don't have an estate garden. But I would limit the pups to certain areas and use kennel disinfectant to ensure the area was fastidiously clean. Nothing wrong with introducing pups to animals when they have got all their vaccinations.Have a look at my initial post on the thread again. I clearly state the nature of my queries. The post is above word-for-word.
I have already explained that I offer people the choice to save on costs for them. Why have a mother buying a dog for her two daughters spend €50 on papers she doesn't need? I'd prefer she spend the €50 on the dog itself. For example, let her put the €50 to getting it neutered in future. That's far better than papers she doesn't need. As I said, I hand any cost saving from not registering back to the new buyer. It makes no difference to me if they want the pup registered or not.
And that is probably the same spiel that the byb/puppy farmer who doesn't register gives to the unsuspecting buyer. But you don't seem to see that you are putting the wrong message out to puppy buyers.You seem to put a huge over emphasis on IKC papers. As Andreac said, they prove very little and I fully agree with her.
And I guarantee that Andreac has registered her litter with the IKC. Yes it proves little but it does prove that the breeder won't cut corners.I find that hypocritical. It's fine for one poster to say something you reckon but not for another poster to say it.
As above.As I said, I'm not cutting any corners. I fully agree with you that there are people out there that cut corners in this fashion but there are just as many people that get full IKC papers and cut plenty of corners. Donedeal as I said is full of them. These people then charge a premium price on poor buyers because the pup is "IKC registered". IKC papers prove nothing.
Yet people like yourself put a huge emphasis on it and are, if anything, helping these dishonest breeders. You hold out IKC registration as some sort of standard but it is far from it. As said, any eejit can register a pup if both parents are registered,
As above. I think you're just avoiding what I'm saying. I'm sure you understand but you seem to think that you are the ultimate breeder when you cut 'unnecessary costs'. Why do you do it though? So your pups are one of the cheaper ones and you get more inquiries? That would be the only reason I would think a breeder would cut corners and pass on 'savings'.I have email addresses for all new owners. Most are already emailing me pics of the pups. Even those who don't, I will knock them off an email when the pups are 6 months, 12 months etc. and hope that serves as a reminder that I am here.
I can't force them to keep me informed but I can do my best to maintain communication with them.0 -
First off, I'm not sure there's much point continuing this debate because of the unbelievable arrogance you are displaying. You are aware you made a point above regarding me not posting my nature of questioning which I showed to be wholly incorrect. Yet you cannot even muster an apology or acknowledgement that you were clearly incorrect.You know well that I'm aware that bad breeders also register. But if they can get away without doing so they will. By using your method of giving the buyer 'a choice to cut unnecessary costs' or by bullshiiting that they are registered when they aren't.
So if bad breeders can also register so easily then what advantage are the IKC papers providing? I honestly don't think bad breeders will choose not go register if possible. If anything, they will choose to register because it allows them to maximise their profit by bumping up the price of the pup because it is "IKC registered". Why else would there be so many of these pups on Donedeal?
Then people will read posts like yours above and think that IKC papers are offering something like a link to the breed standard when, in truth, they are not.
I also don't see the need to reduce your argument to foul language.No, I was sticking to my point about your reputation regarding boosters and registrations. You were the one who went off on a tangent about breed clubs. I never once mentioned them.
My "reputation". So posting my opinion on one point gets me a "reputation"? So what is my reputation on boosters then seeing as I clearly said I get my vet to do them?
And this is an Internet forum. I'm not too bothered about my "reputation" on it.I don't want to start naming posters but there's a few on here that I'm sure live in estates that have had litters of puppies. Now your trying to set a standard on the home that the pups are born in because you think you have the perfect set up?? Having a large house in the country does not make for a good breeder and you inferring as such is probably insulting a lot of people.
Why shouldn't I outline my own standard for breeding when you are trying to enforce yours on me? I will not change my opinion that someone living in a cramped city estate does not have the necessary room to breed a dog correctly.
You have continued to insult me by making veiled accusations that I am different terms so why should I be worried about who I insult? I certainly won't change my opinion regarding breeding in estates.
But sure you seem to think breeding is easy anyway. How did you put it - all ya need is the necessary room and a whelping box? Yet I'm the one you are throwing accusations at!I don't have an estate garden. But I would limit the pups to certain areas and use kennel disinfectant to ensure the area was fastidiously clean. Nothing wrong with introducing pups to animals when they have got all their vaccinations
So, let me get this right, for the first eight weeks of its life your puppy will smell kennel disinfectant wherever it goes outside? That is just ludicrous. For the first six weeks of life the pups gain some immunisation from their mother's own inoculations. At six weeks they get their initial shot and at eight weeks their first shot of the second two.
6 to 12 weeks is vital for puppy socialisation so I see it as a key time to introduce pups to as many animals as possible and allow them to explore and discover new areas and smells, albeit in a secure area.
I also think the puppy needs to be exposed to areas not covered in the likes of disinfectant so it can start to build a natural immunity, otherwise you are going to have a very sick dog in the future.And that is probably the same spiel that the byb/puppy farmer who doesn't register gives to the unsuspecting buyer. But you don't seem to see that you are putting the wrong message out to puppy buyers.
So a puppy farmer has never fed a buyer spiel about IKC papers?
I assure you I do not send out the wrong message to puppy buyers. My pups, as well as a huge wealth of oral and emailed information, each went out to their new home as standard with written info on:
1. Vaccination cards
2. A 2.5kg bag of Skinners Field and Trial puppy and information on the benefit of feeding a premium nut.
3. Information about RAW feeding from Dogsfirst.
4. A full schedule of what dates the pups had been flea treated and when they were wormed.
5. The contract I already mentioned.
6. 4 generation Pedigree certs for both parents.
7. The buyers were emailed pictures of their pup each week up until it was collected at 8 weeks old. I also answered any queries they had during this time and continue to answer queries.
8. A copy of the reg papers and what is entailed if they wish to register the pup at a later date.
So the message I give my buyers is that this is the standard they should accept from their breeder and that if they are to mention anything to their friends it would be all the information they received and continue to. I would expect them therefore to be able to say to friends no, you should expect this, this and this from your breeder.
I wouldn't expect people to naively believe that everything will be hunky dory once you get IKC papers which means absolutely nothing.And I guarantee that Andreac has registered her litter with the IKC. Yes it proves little but it does prove that the breeder won't cut corners.
Are you even reading the thread? My litter has also been registered with the IKC. 4 of the pups have already been registered and I gave the other buyers info on the IKC and told them to come back to me if they wish to register at a later date.As above. I think you're just avoiding what I'm saying. I'm sure you understand but you seem to think that you are the ultimate breeder when you cut 'unnecessary costs'. Why do you do it though? So your pups are one of the cheaper ones and you get more inquiries? That would be the only reason I would think a breeder would cut corners and pass on 'savings'.
Why would I enforce an extra cost on people from an institution that I have no faith in? I've already outlined some anecdotal evidence re the IKC and breed clubs above and I could share plenty more.
I give people a choice. I previously bred Springer Spaniels as I've said before. The majority of people buying them wanted them for hunting and did not want IKC papers.
When enough people come and say they don't want papers or aren't interested in them, why would I continue getting them for all buyers?0 -
You're right about one thing. There is no point in continuing this discussion.
There are none so blind as those that will not see.0 -
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Are you breeding Huskies?
Nope, I bred my Labrador. The vet was making a point about Huskies being prevalent in Tyrone where she previously worked and where she finds it crazy that people keep such a high energy breed in small estate gardens.
I was asking her about dogs in NI because my own Labrador came from there and 4 of my nine pups also went to NI. Portadown seems to be a hugely popular area for the breed.0 -
borderlinemeath wrote: »You're right about one thing. There is no point in continuing this discussion.
There are none so blind as those that will not see.
Still no apology then?
Well hopefully if you've learned one thing from this thread it's that before you jump on that high horse of yours again and come galloping over a thread, you'll actually read what posters have said before making assumptions, jumping to conclusions and trying to force your opinion on others.0 -
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Nope, I bred my Labrador. The vet was making a point about Huskies being prevalent in Tyrone where she previously worked and where she finds it crazy that people keep such a high energy breed in small estate gardens.
I was asking her about dogs in NI because my own Labrador came from there and 4 of my nine pups also went to NI. Portadown seems to be a hugely popular area for the breed.
Personally I know of a good few puppy farmers that breed huskies in Tyrone, so really not the best examples.0 -
Still no apology then?
Well hopefully if you've learned one thing from this thread it's that before you jump on that high horse of yours again and come galloping over a thread, you'll actually read what posters have said before making assumptions, jumping to conclusions and trying to force your opinion on others.
What I have learned is that in your eyes, you must have a large country house with plenty of land to be a successful breeder. How very dare somebody breed in an 'estate', simply not up to scratch, that's one thing that makes them a 'back yard breeder'.
If only it were than simple:rolleyes:0 -
Personally I know of a good few puppy farmers that breed huskies in Tyrone, so really not the best examples.
The best examples of what? I was only making reference to a conversation I had with the vet. Nothing else. I do not know any Husky breeders or owners in Co. Tyrone.
Nor have I any interest in the Husky breed.
Please read the thread.0 -
borderlinemeath wrote: »What I have learned is that in your eyes, you must have a large country house with plenty of land to be a successful breeder. How very dare somebody breed in an 'estate', simply not up to scratch, that's one thing that makes them a 'back yard breeder'.
If only it were than simple:rolleyes:
Where did I state that makes a successful breeder? I said I see having the relevant area and room as an important part of breeding and I do not believe someone living in an estate with a small garden has that. Can you imagine nine Labrador pups in a small enclosed area like that? I'd see it as cruelty.
When my pups left at 8 weeks they were all around 5kg and each was the size of your average terrier. Can you imagine 9 dogs of that size plus their mother in a small estate house and garden? I can't.
And according to your argument, anyone with IKC papers is a reputable breeder. Go and have a look on Donedeal I'd suggest! The irony is that Andreac is thanking your posts yet she is the one who posted on another thread that IKC papers mean "absolutely nothing" and I would totally agree with her.
You still keep going and going and can't admit you were wrong regarding me not stating the nature of my queries on the thread? It's there in my very first post on here.
As I said, the arrogance on display here is amazing. A user who was blatantly wrong on a point yet will not admit it, acknowledge it or apologise for it. As I said, there's no point even trying to debate a point with an individual like yourself.0 -
Lemlin, you are taking my posts totally out of context. I said to a poster who was looking for a well bred pup, to look for more than just IKC reg as it only means the parents are registered and shows the pedigree of the pup.
Anyone can register a pup regardless of the type of breeder they are so thats the point i was trying to make to that poster that you need to look for more than just IKC reg as it doesnt guarantee quality or health checks etc.0 -
Lemlin, you are taking my posts totally out of context. I said to a poster who was looking for a well bred pup, to look for more than just IKC reg as it only means the parents are registered and shows the pedigree of the pup.
Anyone can register a pup regardless of the type of breeder they are so thats the point i was trying to make to that poster that you need to look for more than just IKC reg as it doesnt guarantee quality or health checks etc.
How am I taking them out of context? The fact is you were stating that there is alot more to a pup being well bred and cared for than having IKC papers. Donedeal shows that.
That's exactly the crux of my point also. You said that the IKC papers mean "absolutely nothing" and that is my point. IKC papers prove nothing when it comes to a pup.
The simple fact is that there's one big giant sized elephant in the room of anyone tries to say IKC papers prove anything: Donedeal. Have a look at the amount of "IKC registered" pups being sold on there which are obviously coming from back yard breeders and puppy farmers.
The IKC were referred to as a regulatory body. Well other than charge people for and send out papers I fail to see what regulation they do. A person came to me because they couldn't get the papers from their breeder. A puppy farmer operating in my locality I might add. I rang the IKC on the person's behalf. The pup was indeed registered and papers had been sent out. I asked the rep if any sanction could be put on the breeder until they sent on the papers to the new owner. I explained the new owner had been waiting six months on his papers and had proof he had been chasing them. None could.
So what sort of "regulation" is that? Also, I'd ask how are the IKC allowing this person to continue to continually register pups? He has a batch up on Donedeal every six months. So if the IKC are getting calls like mine why aren't they sanctioning this breeder as the "regulatory body"?0 -
Okay all,
This thread to some extent slipped through the net over the weekend, and I feel some belated comments need to be made.
This was a strident debate, both sides of the argument making good points and sticking to their guns. By and large, despite it getting heated, posters remained mostly respectful of each other. But unfortunately, not entirely... There were comments on both sides that flew close to the wind, some if which have been removed now, and I'd like to remind posters, all posters, not just from this thread, to always try to take a deep breath when you can feel the blood boiling, have a cup of tea, give your pet a hug, and then return to the thread when you can say what you want to say without getting snarky or personal.
I'll close the thread now because it has run its course.
Thanks,
DBB0
This discussion has been closed.
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