Government to set min price on gargle

rovoagho

Price controls on milk Bad; price controls on alcohol Good. This country's legislators are like a Möbius strip of stupid.

Geuze

P_1 wrote: »

Eh hasn't the excise duty on a pint been long considered as one of the 'old reliables' that is pretty much guaranteed to go up in each budget?

Here is the excise duty on beer:

http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/publications/statistical/2011/excise.pdf

2001 - 2009 = no change at 47c per pint of standard strength beer

2010 and 2011 = cut by 10c to 37c per pint

Since then, increased back up.

OldNotWIse

They leave us with nothing

Geuze

P_1 wrote: »

Really? Guess ye learn something new every day. What accounted for the price rises in a pint since then so?

The brewers, mainly Diageo, increased their prices.

Note that they are dominant in the market, and so charge far more in the RoI market, than they charge for the same product in the UK.

Geuze

Note that this proposed min price per unit of alcohol is not an excise duty.

It is not a tax.

It is not a tax-raising measure.

The highe price of some products will accrue to the supplier/wholesaler/retailer.

(OK, there will be a small bit of extra VAT.)

kjl

syklops wrote: »

Stupid short sighted move IMO. This will effectively make alcohol more expensive which translates to families on low incomes having less money for food.

eh or less alcohol.

anncoates

A measure that directly benefits publicans and their main Brewer(s) and will not address alcohol overindulgence in any meaningful way.

How surprising.

Akrasia

Expensive drink prices in pubs have directly contributed to the binge drinking culture amongst Irish people
The drink prices went through the roof during the 'celtic tiger' because of the restrictive licensing laws

in 1998, a pint of guinness was about €2.65
in 2008 a pint of guinness was €4.22
http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/bestprice/guinnessindex.htm

This fundamentally changed how young people drink.

When drink prices were lower, people went to the pub/club and bought drink at the pub/club
When drink prices shot up, people started buying cheap wine/spirits/cans and getting drunk before they went out. (and then getting even more drunk while they're out cause they're too drunk to control themselves)

The solution they're now proposing is to make the cheap alcohol more expensive. What is this gonna do?
It's gonna drive people to something else. If alcohol gets too expensive, young people will get their highs more and more from illegal drugs and imported spirits/home brews

The history of public policy on alcohol in Ireland is a history of half arsed tinkering and the law of unintended consequences.

Dravokivich

kjl wrote: »

eh or less alcohol.

You make it sound like such a trivial luxury.

rubadub

Akrasia wrote: »

The history of public policy on alcohol in Ireland is a history of half arsed tinkering and the law of unintended consequences.

I love this one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequences#Perverse_results

Theobald Mathew's temperance campaign in 19th-century Ireland (in which thousands of people vowed never to drink alcohol again) led to the consumption of diethyl ether, an intoxicant much more dangerous due to its high flammability, by those seeking to become intoxicated without breaking the letter of their pledge

n1ck

Ah sure it's grand, they probably get an open bar at events so it doesn't affect them!

syklops

kjl wrote: »

eh or less alcohol.

So its not just the government who is short sighted.

darkpagandeath

lets get this straight cheap alcohol is bad for you but the expensive stuff is ok it seems. Once they put up the min price any problems with the cheaper alcohol will go away as it’s more expensive and we all know things that are more expensive are better for you yes .

seiphil

For me the reason I think we binge drink has got to do with the closing times of off-licence/pubs. Compared to anywhere else really they shut up shop early and there's a sense of "oh **** the pub is closing soon let's drink as many as we can before that". Where if the night was to go on longer, you would tend to take your time more.

If you look at England a fairly similar culture to ours they have clubs and pubs that are open from all hours and apart from a few drunken mongs it's never anything too serious.

Also Dublin is really crap to go out in. Feel sorry for tourists looking to come over and experience the Irish nightlife when everything is shut up by 2.

Just like everything else in this country they are trying to make drink unaffordable.

Where's my passport at?

kjl

Right, I think I need to chip in on this subject.

Personally I am delighted to see this introduced. I was in Lidl the other day and saw a 2 liter bottle of cider for €2, alcohol is a drug no matter which was we look at it and by making it so easily available is what is driving a lot of addiction. If it suddenly cost €4 per 500ml people will not be able to afford as much, and will yes there may be a rise in unemployed people running out of money, in the long run it will end up with people consuming less.

The way some people are going on in this thread you would swear alcohol is like heroin that people will have terrible withdrawal symptoms. This is not the case.

The other effect from this rise will be that people will actually start coming out earlier. In the last 4 years or so it seems like the consensus is to drink at home till about 12 then head into town when you are nice and drunk. This is putting a serious cramp in my style as I like to meet and chat up women when they are not falling over the place drunk.

darkpagandeath

seiphil wrote: »

For me the reason I think we binge drink has got to do with the closing times of off-licence/pubs. Compared to anywhere else really they shut up shop early and there's a sense of "oh **** the pub is closing soon let's drink as many as we can before that". Where if the night was to go on longer, you would tend to take your time more.

If you look at England a fairly similar culture to ours they have clubs and pubs that are open from all hours and apart from a few drunken mongs it's never anything too serious.

Also Dublin is really crap to go out in. Feel sorry for tourists looking to come over and experience the Irish nightlife when everything is shut up by 2.

Just like everything else in this country they are trying to make drink unaffordable.

Where's my passport at?

That's because you should be in bed by then not doing anything that is bad for you.

Dravokivich

kjl wrote: »

Right, I think I need to chip in on this subject.

Personally I am delighted to see this introduced. I was in Lidl the other day and saw a 2 liter bottle of cider for €2, alcohol is a drug no matter which was we look at it and by making it so easily available is what is driving a lot of addiction. If it suddenly cost €4 per 500ml people will not be able to afford as much, and will yes there may be a rise in unemployed people running out of money, in the long run it will end up with people consuming less.

The way some people are going on in this thread you would swear alcohol is like heroin that people will have terrible withdrawal symptoms. This is not the case.

The other effect from this rise will be that people will actually start coming out earlier. In the last 4 years or so it seems like the consensus is to drink at home till about 12 then head into town when you are nice and drunk. This is putting a serious cramp in my style as I like to meet and chat up women when they are not falling over the place drunk.

Not I. I see it as something I can casually enjoy. With minimum pricing controlling and possibly raising up prices (as that's what the lobbies want), I won't be able to casually enjoy it any more. I think it's nuts that instead of setting aside 40 quid a month for a few beers a week, I'd need to start saving up for it.

It's tearing a hole in my back pocket for my own good. (apparently)

I see no reason why the industry should need it. A group of them lobbying for it, is the very reason why I'm against it. It reeks of "We can't adapt to the market, so we'll manipulate it."

The way you're picking on Lidl is exactly what they are trying to put out. You choose a cheap brand of cider in a 2 litre bottle. Lots of Off Licenses have sold cheap cider in large jugs for years. You are only noticing this now yourself?

oceanman

well I cant wait for it to come in, it will lead to plenty of cheap of drink when people start smuggling beer and wine into the country. just like the smuggled cigarettes that every second person you meet is smoking!
so bring it on I say. it will taste all the better knowing the government is not getting a cent out of it!

The_Gatsby

I think this is a terrible idea, even from the governments point of view. They'll pretty much lose the young people vote if they bring this in.

rovoagho

Akrasia wrote: »

Expensive drink prices in pubs have directly contributed to the binge drinking culture amongst Irish people

Does channelling the gutter press and calling it binge-drinking make it new? I don't see any difference between now and when I was a lad, except we just called it getting locked.

syklops

The_Gatsby wrote: »

I think this is a terrible idea, even from the governments point of view. They'll pretty much lose the young people vote if they bring this in.

I don't think they're too worried about losing the vote of the three young people who turned up to vote at the last election.

Zubeneschamali

kjl wrote: »

I was in Lidl the other day and saw a 2 liter bottle of cider for €2, alcohol is a drug no matter which was we look at it and by making it so easily available is what is driving a lot of addiction.

OK, so let's put a crippling excise duty on, which doubles the selling price of all alcohol per unit, everywhere.

Only that would affect the alcohol that TD's and their voters drink, and close down most pubs, so it's a non-runner. Instead, let's throw on a minimum price which won't affect Chateauneuf, Mumm or craft beers in offies and will have no effect at all in pubs, but will double the price of Buckfast or Dutch Gold.

Poor people shouldn't be drinking, anyway.

Zebra3

All this is going on while the politicians get to use a taxpayer subsidised (i.e. cheap) bar in Leinster House, right? :rolleyes:

Grayson

Grandeeod wrote: »

This is absolutely nothing more than protecting the pub trade. Look closely at what has happened over the last few years. The proposal to launch cafe bars was shafted. Off license hours were cut. Happy hours were banned. The abuse of alcohol continued. Now we are returning to price fixing a concept that was rejected by Labor heads many years ago. Think Gilmore. The vintners are running this show in an attempt to force drinkers into pubs.

i remember hearing that 1/3 of FF backbenchers own pubs. this was when FF were in power. They're really just creating a law to make more money for themselves.

Grayson

Zebra3 wrote: »

All this is going on while the politicians get to use a taxpayer subsidised (i.e. cheap) bar in Leinster House, right? :rolleyes:

And politicians wander around a debate on abortion whilst locked off their heads and smacking female TD's and their asses.

ScumLord

kjl wrote: »

Personally I am delighted to see this introduced. I was in Lidl the other day and saw a 2 liter bottle of cider for €2, alcohol is a drug no matter which was we look at it and by making it so easily available is what is driving a lot of addiction. If it suddenly cost €4 per 500ml people will not be able to afford as much,

They can just switch to spirits or stronger beers. The government will just force the people that want to get drunk to start using more alcoholic drinks. I could also see younger people pooling their money to buy bulk orders of drink.

The other effect from this rise will be that people will actually start coming out earlier. In the last 4 years or so it seems like the consensus is to drink at home till about 12 then head into town when you are nice and drunk.

Back in my days (the 90s) we used to start drinking at home around six and head out to the pub at 10ish hammered. I don't think there's anything pubs can do to get people back in the door other than to drop the price of their drink. People simply can't afford or don't see the value in buying a pint in a pub.

This is putting a serious cramp in my style as I like to meet and chat up women when they are not falling over the place drunk.

So your upset that the women your meeting in pubs are drunk?

goose2005

Geuze wrote: »

The highe price of some products will accrue to the supplier/wholesaler/retailer.

(OK, there will be a small bit of extra VAT.)

It'll also make it harder for smaller brewers to compete, as they'll have to charge similar prices to the big behemoths.

rubadub

ScumLord wrote: »

They can just switch to spirits or stronger beers. The government will just force the people that want to get drunk to start using more alcoholic drinks. I could also see younger people pooling their money to buy bulk orders of drink.

There should be no more bulk orders/discounts, except on beers previously above the min level of course. The plan is to charge a minimum per unit alcohol, so the spirits will be hit too.

A 700ml 37.5% bottle of the cheapest tesco vodka is 12.99. This is the equivalent of 12.2 cans of 500ml 4.3% alcohol. So if the min price was set at €1.50 per 500ml 4.3% can this would equate to a min price of €18.30 for the vodka.

Now people may switch to this for a cheaper alternative as they can usually skull back a half bottle faster than 6 cans. I think it will get people thinking more about the price per unit alcohol. Many have no idea that a pub shot is only little more than half a pint of most beers.

I can picture lots of younger people buying 200ml & 350ml bottles of cheap spirits. Traditionally these have costed a lot more per ml than the 700ml bottles. If all things stay the same you will see many of these at the same price per ml as the larger ones. e.g. if the max was 1.50 per 500ml 4.3% can then the min price of 200ml 37.5% spirits is €5.23

ScumLord wrote: »

Back in my days (the 90s) we used to start drinking at home around six and head out to the pub at 10ish hammered.

Back then the price different was not as dramatic. It was about twice or little over twice the price to drink in pubs. In the rip off forum people are being charged €6.70 for a 330ml corona (works out €11.53 a pint), while a heineken is 75cent in tesco. Even well off people are drinking at home on principle, not just cause they are young lads stuck for money.

OldNotWIse

kjl wrote: »

Right, I think I need to chip in on this subject.

Personally I am delighted to see this introduced. I was in Lidl the other day and saw a 2 liter bottle of cider for €2, alcohol is a drug no matter which was we look at it and by making it so easily available is what is driving a lot of addiction. If it suddenly cost €4 per 500ml people will not be able to afford as much, and will yes there may be a rise in unemployed people running out of money, in the long run it will end up with people consuming less.

The way some people are going on in this thread you would swear alcohol is like heroin that people will have terrible withdrawal symptoms. This is not the case.

The other effect from this rise will be that people will actually start coming out earlier. In the last 4 years or so it seems like the consensus is to drink at home till about 12 then head into town when you are nice and drunk. This is putting a serious cramp in my style as I like to meet and chat up women when they are not falling over the place drunk.

Because that worked so well in getting people off the fags...

kjl

ScumLord wrote: »

So you're upset that the women your meeting in pubs are drunk?

I don't drink, and I find it revolting having sex with someone while they are drunk and I'm sober. I like to meet girls in the pub earlier when they are still sober and get a phone number and meet up with them for a date. However nowadays the pubs are empty till about 12 then when they do start to fill up everyone is hammered.

Plus, you guys realise that tesco, lidl, aldi, they all export their profits so it's bad for the economy too. At least with the new proposal the extra tax generated will be put to good use.

If you drink 20 units of alcohol per week, you will be spending about €40 anything more than that and you are probably drinking too much anyway. The only people who benefit from cheap alcohol is alcoholics. If people was to spend all their money on booze, well so be it, that darwinism.