Pet calf

johnnyasks

Hi I wondered if it is legal to own a calf which has a herd number, and can permission be obtained to keep as a pet ?

anniehoo

You can keep a pet calf, but any calf born on a farm whether it's yours or not needs to be registered regardless as per the Herd Health Register.

wrote:

Keepers of cattle are required to maintain a herd register of all bovine animals on their holdings. The herd register must be kept up-to-date and must record information in relation to all calves born on the holding together with details of all animals entering or leaving the herd and of animal deaths on the holding.

There's another excellent Farming and Forestry Forum on Boards that will be able to help you more.

Bizzum

johnnyasks wrote: »

Hi I wondered if it is legal to own a calf which has a herd number, and can permission be obtained to keep as a pet ?

No you can't be the keeper of a calf unless you have a herd number.
I assume when you say the calf has a herd no. it is tagged to the registered owner? Unless you have a herd no. the calf can't be transfered into your name.

anniehoo

Bizzum wrote: »

it is tagged to the registered owner? .

In fairness, you're correct with this and any movement of cattle needs to be notified to the DAFM.

Bizzum

anniehoo wrote: »

You can keep a pet calf, but any calf born on a farm whether it's yours or not needs to be registered regardless as per the Herd Health Register.



There's another excellent Farming and Forestry Forum on Boards that will be able to help you more.

Unless OP has a herd no. he can't keep a calf legally.
I dunno would a calf make much of a pet either.

Bizzum

anniehoo wrote: »

In fairness, you're correct with this and any movement of cattle needs to be notified to the DAFM.

That's exactly the problem the vendor would encounter. He/she would need a buyer's herd no. to complete the movement.
If you just turned up at a mart an bought a calf, the deal would not go through.

The cattle movement system is a pain in ways but is a very good system to guarantee traceability from farm to fork.

anniehoo

Bizzum wrote: »

Unless OP has a herd no. he can't keep a calf legally.

The OP has stated the animal has a herd no.

johnnyasks wrote: »

which has a herd number,

Agree'd with you that if it has transferred ownership then they need to contact DAFM as per the rules in the link I gave.

wrote:

I dunno would a calf make much of a pet either.

If it's not suitable for dairy or beef, then that's not for us to judge. Pet farm cow?

Bizzum

anniehoo wrote: »

The OP has stated the animal has a herd no.



Agree'd with you that if it has transferred ownership then they need to contact DAFM as per the rules in the link I gave.


If it's not suitable for dairy or beef, then that's not for us to judge. Pet farm cow?

The animal can't have a herd number. It's the keeper of the animal that has the herd number. The calf would have a unique tag number (associated with the keepers herd number).

I still would be slow to recommend a calf as a pet to anyone. They are social animals and really needs the company of their own kind.

anniehoo

Bizzum wrote: »

I still would be slow to recommend a calf as a pet to anyone. They are social animals and really needs the company of their own kind.

I would love to hear your opinion on why they can't be.I'm not being facetious here, and I agree completely that they're "social" animals as a species but in the context of having a cow as a pet, simplified....why not? Plenty of species do really well as "companion animals".

Temple Grandin surmises:

wrote:

When the structure of the brain and nervous system is studied, there is no black and white line between people and higher mammals such as chimps, dogs or cows

The Agricultural world doesn't operate like the "pet owning world" though and this is why this forum differs in opinion from others.

It's a fine line that could be argued for many species and to keep the thread On Topic, if the OP wants to keep the calf as a "pet", as long as the DAFM regulations are adhered to and general bovine welfare guidelines are followed,I'd be hard pushed to have an issue.

Bizzum

A few points:
I didn't say they can't be (a calf being a pet), what I did say was I'd be slow to recommend it.
Cattle are not bred as companion animals.
Cattle do better with comrades as stated.
A pet calf, soon becomes a pet weaning, which soon becomes a pet bull/ heifer. It is not a given that such an animal would be easily handled, indeed, a good reason not to make a pet of a calf is they can become wicked.

What animals, that are not bred as companion animals, are you referring to above that makes good pets, who's needs are fully met by such a life?

Bizzum

anniehoo wrote: »

The Agricultural world doesn't operate like the "pet owning world" though and this is why this forum differs in opinion from others.

Is this forum represented merely by your opinion? Or is your opinion the only one that holds any sway? Surely all opinions are welcomed?
Is there any reason why I can't be welcomed to post here?

maggiepip

Apparently science says cows choose a partner or best friend so to speak and get lonely and stressed if kept alone or even put with a random partner. So if you were keeping one as a pet I would imagine it wouldnt be too happy on its own.

SillyMangoX

Having had a 'pet' calf when I was younger (it needed to be bottle fed as it's mother rejected it) even though it was with cows all the time when it grew older it was dangerous. It had no fear of humans, and unless I brought something for it, even a handful of grass, it would puck me repeatedly which really hurt! It eventually ended up turning wild and nearly kicked someone for no reason, just because it was so habituated to humans and there was heartbreak when it went off to the factory. So while having a cute little calf as a pet seems like a great idea, they grow, and can get very dangerous. So I would also be hesitant in recommending it, especially if it's a pet for children.

fiacha

Cattle are herd animals and belong with a herd. That is the environment they feel safe in. We are talking about an animal that weighs hundreds of kilos, and are well known for being a handful at times. At the very least, the owner would need to be experienced with handling / keeping livestock.

P.S Many years ago I worked part time on a dairy farm run by some eccentric ladies. They had a small separate "herd" of cattle which they claimed had been selectively bred by themselves to be kept as pets. There were only ever 4 cattle in the herd when I was there, and i have no idea how they went about breeding them.They were very docile and would wonder around the yard with the rest of the menagerie (dogs, cats, goats, hens, pheasants etc) without any problems. They'd even wonder up to you for a scratch and follow you around when working in the yard. Compared to the some of the lunatic cows in the dairy herd, they were a pleasure to deal with but I still treated them all with the same respect.

johnnyasks

Thanks Anniehoo for the link, I sent an email asking for information.

Regarding a pet, I think some people may recognize animals can be individuals, so instead of being considered only good for one thing, they can be destined for greater things. As to how an animal can turn out when its older and larger, that requires a person to be larger in their capabilities, and more mature in thought, to manage whatever they need to do, whether an animal remains good or bad is immaterial, you could say we are not abandoned from on high, even though our behavior since the world began was worse than any animals. But yes, all opinions can be welcomed on this topic anyway

boomerang

I think in saying that johnnyasks you are side-stepping the issue of the animal's genetically-inherited nature. A bullock is a herd animal. I think it is completely unfair to isolate one as a pet, unless you plan on keeping several. And as several posters have pointed out, you have no guarantee that the animal will turn out as docile as you think - especially if it's a Black Angus!

gctest50

A mini cow would be safer - not sure if they are ok to eat afterwards though

johnnyasks

Hello Boomerang, I agree to keep one as a pet alone is unfair, but considering that it is unfair what happens to most bullocks and cows, makes it a much better fairer option. Also animals can get along with each other in different species, far better than people can do, so other animals will be for companions.

Other posters did say the animals can turn out either aggressive, or friendly, and I did say it doesn't matter, if you do this for the animals, and not for yourself, but I guess you never understood what I had tried to say.

Also this is not for eating, whatever a person begins to do should be always done, if you have an animal as a pet, it can only be sincere if this is always the case

My thread was for info regarding herd number, that was answered by only one person, its answered, so to try to give me different info really is for no purpose at all.

Bizzum

Information Note for Applicants for a herd/flock number for Cattle, Sheep and/or Goats.
[IMG]file:///C:\DOCUME~1\ADMINI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image002.jpg[/IMG]

Please Note: -

· A Herd/flocknumber is an administrative device, issued by the District Veterinary Office (DVO) to a distinct herd/flock, solely for the purposes of disease control.
· A herd/flocknumber issued by the Department to any particular individual acting as the keeper, does not infer ownership of lands or any animals tested under that herdnumber.
· For the various eradication schemes, animal identification regulations and record keeping purposes a “keeper” is a natural person responsible for the care and maintenance of animals.
· If single payment entitlements are to be transferred a SPSTE form for the relevant year is required.

The conditions: - Listed below 1-7 are the principle conditions that are assessed by the DVO before a herd/flocknumber may issue. In seeking to prevent disease transmission, these conditions include that the individual herd/flock in question (see “herd” definition below) must fulfil the following criteria:
1) That the herd/flock occupies a defined holding (see “holding” definition below).
2) That there are separate entrances to the holding.
3) That entry points onto other adjoining holdings/lands, not part of the application, are permanently blocked.
4) That perimeter fencing should be stock-proof at a minimum and also prevent direct contact between stock on contiguous or adjoining holdings.
5) That there are independent and separate facilities such as
a. Separate cattle crush or sheep/goat handling facilities,
b. Separate feeding and watering facilities.
c. Separate farm machinery
6) That there are adequate facilities for the purpose of inspection, isolation, loading, unloading, marshalling, watering, feeding, treatment of sick/injured animals and housing as appropriate.
7) That there are adequate facilities for animal bedding and the collection of manure and wastewater.

To summarise the conditions are that the herd/flock must be maintained separately without intermixing of stock from other herds/flocks and that the herd/flock is managed as an independent unit.

Legal Definitions: -
For your information, the following extracts from the legislation: – defines
"herd" means the animals which are for the time being on a particular holding and in case only one animal is for the time being on a particular holding, the animal shall for the purpose of this Order be regarded as being a herd;
"holding", means all the land either used by an owner of animals, whether solely or jointly with any other person or persons, for farming purposes or used by a dealer for or in connection with an animal purchased or disposed of (by sale or otherwise) by him;

The Forms to use: -
ER1. The application form for a herdnumber or flocknumber is called an ER1 and the applicant keeper must complete and sign this form. The applicant keeper has to be a real live person over 18 years of age; - it may be one of the owners of the land/animals but it could be an employee.
ER1.1. Where the keeper is not the sole person with an interest in the herd/flocknumber/animals, the additional form ER1.1 provides the means for other persons/companies/institutions to register their interest in the role as ‘Herdowner(s)’ and to agree to the details of the keeper and the bank account. Multiple Persons wishing to register an interest in the herd can and will therefore be recorded on the Departments systems in the ‘Herdowner’ role. “The Herdowner” means the nominated company or entity or person(s) associated with a specific herdnumber to whom any payments are made. The "keeper" role is classified as a non-financial role and therefore it is not possible to make payments to “keepers”. It is only possible to make payments to ‘Herdowners’. For example (i) John and Mary Smith jointly own a farm. In this case John and Mary can be recorded jointly as the ‘Herdowner’ and receive payments but they must agree which of them will be the keeper as only a single name can appear in the keeper role. Example (ii) Acme Farms Ltd. owns a farm and Chris Tree is the manager responsible for the day-to-day running of the farm. Acme Farms Ltd is recorded in the ‘Herdowner’ role and Chris Tree is recorded in the ‘keeper’ role.
ERBD. If the ‘Herdowners’ choose to avail of the Direct Credit facility from the Department whereby any payments that may fall due will be paid directly into an account there is third form called the ERBD and this should be completed. All forms when completed should be returned to the local District Veterinary Office.



Issued by The District Veterinary Office.



The above is a bit of reading for ya.

If you are insistant on getting a calf you will need to get a herd number and fulfill the above criteria, it's relatively straight forward.
You will also note that in order to keep sheep, pigs, goats or even chickens you need a herd number!

I still wouldn't be a fan of pet cattle but for pigiron have you gave any consideration to breed or sex?

Aru

johnnyasks wrote: »

Hello Boomerang, I agree to keep one as a pet alone is unfair, but considering that it is unfair what happens to most bullocks and cows, makes it a much better fairer option. Also animals can get along with each other in different species, far better than people can do, so other animals will be for companions.

Other posters did say the animals can turn out either aggressive, or friendly, and I did say it doesn't matter, if you do this for the animals, and not for yourself, but I guess you never understood what I had tried to say.

Also this is not for eating, whatever a person begins to do should be always done, if you have an animal as a pet, it can only be sincere if this is always the case

My thread was for info regarding herd number, that was answered by only one person, its answered, so to try to give me different info really is for no purpose at all.

Do you really think thats isolating an herd animal and making it live solitary because you want a pet is a better life than that in a herd?
Most cattle in this country may be destined for the abattoir but the vast majority live a good life while they are around....out in herds lots of grazing,fed and cared for indoors for winter. Have you ever been around cattle? they are very sociable animals when left to their own devices...
If you want a pet you need to factor in keeping 2 as keeping the poor creature alone is a cruel option.
Its also illegal to keep a calf in solitary confinement...even the bucket fed calves kept in crates are ment to be able to have contact with others of their kind in adjacent pens.

http://www.teagasc.ie/faol/animalWelfare/policy+AND+Legislation/EU+Calf+Regulations.asp

"No calf shall be confined in an individual pen after the age of eight weeks, unless a veterinarian certifies that its health or behaviour requires it to be isolated in order to receive treatment. "

Its also included in the five freedoms of animal welfare..http://www.teagasc.ie/faol/animalWelfare/policy+AND+Legislation/Five+Freedoms.asp

"Freedom to express normal behavior. Conditions (e.g housing, pasture) should provide adequate space for normal behaviour (exercise, stretching, lying down, grooming etc) and provide company of suitable companion animals "
As for your herd number you will need to apply to the department of agriculture...they have a number of links on their website.
they have a number of criteria before you are allowed a herd number as well...
last time i checked a Crush for restaint for treatment is one as well as suitable ways of collecting manure and bedding and secure fencing etc

On the other hand if you do decide to go for it let us know how you get on! the farming and forestry board on here is fairly good as well.Theres a small holdings section to it as well though it has less traffic than the main board.

What sex/breed are you thinking of? or have you came across one already?
Any interest in going for one for the more unusual breeds?Dexters size can make them relatively easy to handle..

feelgoodinc27

johnnyasks wrote: »

I agree to keep one as a pet alone is unfair, but considering that it is unfair what happens to most bullocks and cows, makes it a much better fairer option.

In what way?

johnnyasks

Firstly, anyone who thinks being killed is a better option to continously living in peace, please go off to war and fulfill your own advices.

Keeping in a pen is again vain advice, due to that being for the purpose of treating the animal only for one bad purpose. (unless you think yourself going to fight in a war is a good deed for yourself) A pet is entirely different a purpose, and is kept only for its own good, and thanks for those quotes, but not at all relevant, unless you think having a pet and killing one are one and the same act, such as you may think to kill one person in defense of another person makes you a hero.

So for anyone who drops by, reading in, if you asked the animals what they wished, all your words would be the last words they would ever wish to hear, because you think killing them, and placing them on a pan, then in your stomach is best for them, shows you can never understand how someone else feels, unless it is somebody exactly the same as you are, in a position where you will never come across harm to yourself, and happy to let others be harmed as terribly as possible.

So to sum up, its me who wishes for a pet calf, not yourselves, my business, and yours is not what I ever wish to know anyway

Bizzum

johnnyasks wrote: »

Firstly, anyone who thinks being killed is a better option to continously living in peace, please go off to war and fulfill your own advice

There are far worse fates than death johnny.

MadYaker

It seems our johnny is an idealist! They are herd animals not pets. Why not get a dog instead?

maggiepip

What about quality of life? Forcing an animal to live in social isolation (isolation from its own kind) will cause suffering. That is not something to be proud of.

Aru

johnnyasks wrote: »

So for anyone who drops by, reading in, if you asked the animals what they wished, all your words would be the last words they would ever wish to hear, because you think killing them, and placing them on a pan, then in your stomach is best for them, shows you can never understand how someone else feels, unless it is somebody exactly the same as you are, in a position where you will never come across harm to yourself, and happy to let others be harmed as terribly as possible.

So to sum up, its me who wishes for a pet calf, not yourselves, my business, and yours is not what I ever wish to know anyway

I think your missing the point people some people are trying to make.Nothing wrong with having a calf as a pet if you want(ive met a few on pet farms and one pair belonging to an english couple who decided two dairy bull calves needed a shot at life) Its the keeping alone Id have issue with. They are herd animals.

As for the having no problem with cattle being reared killing meaning I can never understand how an animal feels...Bull****. The purpose that the animal is being reared for shouldn't make a hugh difference to the basics of compassion and doing what is right.
Besides as long as the animal has a good life before its killed I am happy, and I do genuinely believe that the majority of cattle in this country get a decent deal as regards to living standards. I dont eat pork or chicken on the same basis though.
I work with cattle daily and have put a whole lot of blood sweat and tears into constantly improving my knowledge about them,I would consider myself to have a decent understanding of them. Just because Ive never kept one as a pet and do generally view them as livestock for slaughter doesn't mean I can never understand another perspective. Ive met and treated a few pet cattle, they are still cattle.Nice quiet easy to handle cattle but cattle non the less.

Also your going to have to get you calf tested by a vet yearly for tb as well in case you werent aware.Its a compulsory scheme.
Vaccination for certain diseases (like the clostridial diseases..tetanus,botulism) is usually advised. If its a male calf the younger castration is preformed the easier it is on the animal btw.
Finding out if you live in a redwater area would be a good idea unless the animal was born and reared on local land as well.
Treating for parasites etc is also usually needed,(though fecal testing to see what is needed is also an option) so chatting to your local vets might help you.

johnnyasks

Hi Bizzum, thanks for the things to read. Yes worse things than death, and the animals have no voices, but their talk is of life, when they make their sounds, and definetely not asking people to please kill them.

To the others, Nobody can be labelled, discrimination is in every person on earth, before you can decide what is good for others, realize it's not a good thing to be a human, because your ideas come from a separated world full of selfishness and mistrust for everybody different to yourself.

Nobody who causes death cares for life, only someone who saves from death can care for life, and the quality of life is what they are considering, not just talking for the sake of talking, as people love to do.

What is a holiday that afterwards leaves you with incurable diseases, it would be rediculous, so is pretending to care for the welfare of the animals you treat as worse as is possible in imagination. Do I go to a hospital, get well and then when its time to go home, you chop me in pieces, and you say to me, well, we did care for you before we cut you up.

So another summing up for you, I can do as you suggest, to have an animal with others around for comfort, but you will never do as I suggest, to then continue to care for the animals, to never see them hurt. Unfortunately your advice is limited, as its not sincere care, it is as I said above, some kind of strange crooked experience in a care situation.

Bizzum

johnnyasks wrote: »

Hi Bizzum, thanks for the things to read. Yes worse things than death, and the animals have no voices, but their talk is of life, when they make their sounds,

They say....... Johnny........Johnny.........Get a grip man.:)

johnnyasks

Also as I left this part out, if you kill people, and are a canibal, then only yourself and fellow canibals say you can understand people, and that you provide good care for them, but that's your own empty deceit. Exactly the same is for when you state you work with animals and do any good for them. Do you think any person who cares for animals as much as is possible, ie, to not wish to see them killed, would ever agree to you ? But only fellow canibals can and do.

I got my advice for herd numbers, everybody can show some kind of concern on this topic, but it's better if you concern yourselves in your own lives. Otherwise when you start a topic, it will be fine for me to come and advise you on things off the topic which you have no interest in, it only is your self interest which also is demonstrated to be confused anyway, because you really don't have any good thought towards the animals.

DBB

I don't ever remember seeing such a seismic shift in one thread, from interesting discussion to the utterly surreal.
I am struggling not to comment any further, so I'll just wrap up the weirdness by saying that as the OP's initial enquiry has been answered, this thread is now closed.
Thanks,
DBB

Edited to add: Johnnyasks, you were posting your last post as I closed the thread.
Welcome to boards.
I must make it clear to you that it is not up to you to dictate what people can and can't say in threads. If you have a problem with posts, report them, as per the forum charter, and let the mods deal with it if we see fit. I'd urge you to read the forum charter before you post again.
Thanks.