Minimum Alcohol pricing to be signed into Law

Saruman

Leo can now hold up his hands and say "hey, I tried".

Maybe he will listen and concentrate on a campaign of public education and a shift in public perception on excessive drinking instead of a campaign to increase the financial burden of the less well off and targeting responsible drinkers.

mightybashful

Saruman wrote: »

Leo can now hold up his hands and say "hey, I tried".

Maybe he will listen and concentrate on a campaign of public education and a shift in public perception on excessive drinking instead of a campaign to increase the financial burden of the less well off and targeting responsible drinkers.

Not our Leo. Just on the news there talking about how the bizarre plan isn't dead yet.

adelcrowsmel

Once they can prove that increasing the taxes isn't going to create the desired effect i.e. reduce consumption, then they will probably be allowed to proceed with the plan. They reckon they can already make a good case as Ireland has one of the highest taxes on alcohol as it is, and that's not solving the problem.

rubadub

Saruman wrote: »

Leo can now hold up his hands and say "hey, I tried".

I'm more interested to hear him tell us how much taxpayers money he squandered on admin on this.

Must have been tens if not hundreds of thousands of euros. Probably has a few lawyer buddies along with the publicans. Meanwhile people are spending christmas on trolleys.

The dogs on the street knew about the Scottish situation, and there was also the previous attempt with cigarettes.

adelcrowsmel wrote: »

Once they can prove that increasing the taxes isn't going to create the desired effect i.e. reduce consumption, then they will probably be allowed to proceed with the plan. They reckon they can already make a good case as Ireland has one of the highest taxes on alcohol as it is, and that's not solving the problem.

Then they would be contradicting themselves if they say raising prices has no effect. (maybe that is what you are getting at)

L1011

adelcrowsmel wrote: »

Once they can prove that increasing the taxes isn't going to create the desired effect i.e. reduce consumption, then they will probably be allowed to proceed with the plan. They reckon they can already make a good case as Ireland has one of the highest taxes on alcohol as it is, and that's not solving the problem.

"Increasing prices doesn't work so let us increase prices" - won't wash

elastico

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Nothing is ever proposed by our governments ever that is not pro vintners.

Yeah like to smoking ban really put money in the vintners pockets. And abolishing the groceries order, which allows below cost selling of alcohol by supermarkets, was really smart.

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Now, perhaps our politicians can legislate on issues of immediate concern like the flooding

They are. New flood defences are being put in place all the time.

Jayop

And people say the EU has a damaging effect on our country. Thank God they are there to prevent idiots like Leo pushing though this nonsense.

odyssey06

Jayop wrote: »

And people say the EU has a damaging effect on our country. Thank God they are there to prevent idiots like Leo pushing though this nonsense.

The European Court of Justice which laid down the ruling was founded in 1952, we didn't need the EU to get these benefits - the EEC was big enough to keep our idiots in check without foisting more idiots upon us.

Jayop

odyssey06 wrote: »

The European Court of Justice which laid down the ruling was founded in 1952, we didn't need the EU to get these benefits - the EEC was big enough to keep our idiots in check without foisting more idiots upon us.

Whatever, I meant involvement in the European project has clear benefits like this. I'm not saying it's perfect.

L1011

elastico wrote: »

And abolishing the groceries order, which allows below cost selling of alcohol by supermarkets, was really smart.

There is virtually no below cost selling, no matter what the publicans scream

Blut2

If raising prices was purely about decreasing alcohol consumption and the good of our health then surely the next logical step would be for the government to simply raise duty on all alcohol, raising prices across the board? This should achieve the same result while not conflicting with the EU judgement, with the added bonus of raising more revenue for the government.

Or I wonder will the matter simply be dropped without a word, as doing the above would also effect the LVA and the Dail's publicans, unlike the Minimum Alcohol Unit pricing which would have only damaged off-licenses.

Whichever happens will show us the true intent of the law - improving health or lining the publican's pockets. I know which outcome I'd be betting on.

dr.fuzzenstein

If the government was serious they would have to make sure a bottle of spirits costs 50, bottle of wine 20 and beer 10. And also make sure a pint in the pub costs near 15 or more and spirits 20 per shot.
Otherwise they're just not serious about this stuff.

rubadub

elastico wrote: »

which allows below cost selling of alcohol by supermarkets, was really smart.

It allows below cost selling by pubs too, Diceys in dublin city centre have had 2euro pints of paulaner for years now, which I reckon may be below cost, especially if you factor on overheads involved. I have never heard the vitners complain about them.

L1011 wrote: »

There is virtually no below cost selling, no matter what the publicans scream

Some own brand spirits are below cost, but its rare to hear the vitners & publicans talk of them, its usually mainstream beer like heineken they knowingly lie & rant about. I do not believe these are sold below cost. The UK government investigated the matter and only a handful of oddball non mainstream brands were below cost, perhaps heavily promoted, or clearing out stock.

A bottle of spirits 700ml 37.5% has to be sold at 13.75, anything below this is below cost, since at 13.75 the VAT and excise equals 13.75.

Beer has about half the excise duty per unit as spirits, so quite different, I have not worked out the break even point, but know most is well above it.

Blut2 wrote: »

If raising prices was purely about decreasing alcohol consumption and the good of our health then surely the next logical step would be for the government to simply raise duty on all alcohol, raising prices across the board?.

I have not heard a single "pro min price" person make a reasonable argument against this alternative, don't think I even heard an unreasonable one! Possibly since many thought it was an increase in tax, and are stunned at the sheer stupidity of the plan, and refuse to back down just to save face.

I can't wait to hear Leos attempt to defend it. There is no argument at all, an increase in exicse would both increase all drinks, and so hit the wealthier buying higher price drinks (but still unfairly proportion wise as its a fixed increase, so the wealthier still get off more lightly percentage wise), but also it could increase excise on spirits. The current min price would have min price on 90% spirits the same price per unit as 2.5% beer, whereas the current excise is drastically different.

There was talk of an off sales levy as an alternative a few years back. This would raise the price of all alcohols. If beer prices do not change in pubs the vitners might not be a fan of this plan as it might steer people towards wetherspoons, rather than their overpriced members.

L1011

rubadub wrote: »

Some own brand spirits are below cost, but its rare to hear the vitners & publicans talk of them, its usually mainstream beer like heineken they knowingly lie & rant about.

Its basically the Aldi rum, the price-matched (and far better) Tesco product and maybe some own brand vodka that's down there. Not widespread by any means.

scartboy

rubadub wrote: »

I'm more interested to hear him tell us how much taxpayers money he squandered on admin on this.

Must have been tens if not hundreds of thousands of euros. Probably has a few lawyer buddies along with the publicans. Meanwhile people are spending christmas on trolleys.

Looks like about €300k a year goes to an outfit called Alcohol Action Ireland.

It's website says

"Alcohol Action Ireland is currently funded through a mix of state and non-state funding, including charitable foundations and individual donations. Our primary funders are the Health Service Executive and The One Foundation."

However, The One Foundation's website says it wound up in 2014, so it looks like Alcohol Action Ireland is basically funded by the HSE.

Browsing through its 2014 annnual accounts, the AAI got €306k in 2014 and spent €333k. Its P&L is a two-line affair, but the notes reveal that they paid €172k in wages to four staff and €30k on offfice rental.

The list of directors is at alcoholireland.ie/about/board-members/
and the team (three of the four) are listed on alcoholireland.ie/about/team-members/

Sorry I can't post web links; just paste the URLs above into your browser address bar.

DERICKOO

Scotland recently tried this at 50 pence a unit did not the EU Courts have something to say about this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22394438

L1011

DERICKOO wrote: »

Scotland recently tried this at 50 pence a unit did not the EU Courts have something to say about this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22394438

Most of the posts today are about this.

The proposal is completely dead in the water - Leo's comments today transfer all responsibility to the Departments legal advisors who will tell him to stop.

syklops

I said some time a go, if the ruling went against minimum pricing, Varadkar and anyone supporting him would look foolish. Congratulations, Leo, you are still not getting any votes from me because you have demonstrated you aren't fit for politics.

scartboy

rubadub wrote: »

It allows below cost selling by pubs too, Diceys in dublin city centre have had 2euro pints of paulaner for years now, which I reckon may be below cost, especially if you factor on overheads involved. I have never heard the vitners complain about them.

I've just checked the retail price of Paulaner Hefeweizen in German supermarkets - a 500cl bottle sells for around 80 cents, of which 13 cents is VAT and around 5 cents is Biersteuer. That puts the German net retail price at 62 cents. Retail margins are tight in Germany, but let's say the brewery gets between 45 and 50 cents of that.

Deducting Irish VAT @ 23% and Irish Excise Duty of 62 cents* from the Dublin pub's retail price for a 500cl bottle, you get around 99 cents left to pay the brewery/importer.

Note: If the pub is selling pints of draught, the calculations will be a little different.

* €22.55 per hectolitre per cent of alcohol in the beer, Paulaner Hefe is 5.5%

Sources (add www.)
supermarktcheck.de/product/4452-paulaner-hefeweizen
steuertipps.de/lexikon/b/biersteuer
revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/duties/excise-duty-rates.html


BTW, the accounting definition of cost price for a product like beer, which doesn't require further processing, is purchase price plus delivery costs. You could argue about adding storage costs, which, in any case, would be minimal for beer. Overheads are not included.

rubadub

scartboy wrote: »

INote: If the pub is selling pints of draught, the calculations will be a little different.

This is on draught, it is not just the 568ml issue, it's the price of the kegs. In old threads people broke down the price of pints to publicans, with typical prices of heineken, guinness etc, paulaner is an expensive draught pint in most pubs to the kegs are presumably a lot more too.

scartboy wrote: »

BTW, the accounting definition of cost price for a product like beer, which doesn't require further processing.

Agreed, but the vitners & the publicans are the ones constantly harping on about the massive overheads they have, as an excuse to their high prices. Therefore if they are concerned about establishments "selling beer at a loss" (rather than strict definitions) then they should certainly include these overheads, which they say make up a huge amount of the cost.

oblivious

Looks like Leo plans to press on regardless

"Like Scotland, we'll press ahead with MUP. Retailers already selling alcohol for less than excise & VAT combined 1/2"

dr.fuzzenstein

oblivious wrote: »

Looks like Leo plans to press on regardless

"Like Scotland, we'll press ahead with MUP. Retailers already selling alcohol for less than excise & VAT combined 1/2"

We'll see how that goes. Unlikely that will go unchallenged.

L1011

translation: "Like Scotland, I'm going to progress with an illegal law and waste the states money fruitlessly defending it in the courts only for it to be overturned, so I can crow that I "did something""

Suspect his civil servants will refuse to progress with it anyway.

Mr. teddywinkles

oblivious wrote: »

Looks like Leo plans to press on regardless

"Like Scotland, we'll press ahead with MUP. Retailers already selling alcohol for less than excise & VAT combined 1/2"

Maybe he should concentrate on fixing that major problem called the health service.

dr.fuzzenstein

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Maybe he should concentrate on fixing that major problem called the health service.

He's following the Micheal Martin strategy. Can't fix the health service? Just sign a massively controversial piece of legislation into law that will divide the entire country and they will be so busy arguing about it, they won't notice some old fogies dying on A&E trolleys. Then get out of health before people notice it's 10 times worse than under Martin and run for Taoiseach.
Politics, it's not about the results, it's all about the razzmatazz.

Tigger

scartboy wrote: »

Looks like about €300k a year goes to an outfit called Alcohol Action Ireland.

It's website says

"Alcohol Action Ireland is currently funded through a mix of state and non-state funding, including charitable foundations and individual donations. Our primary funders are the Health Service Executive and The One Foundation."

However, The One Foundation's website says it wound up in 2014, so it looks like Alcohol Action Ireland is basically funded by the HSE.

Browsing through its 2014 annnual accounts, the AAI got €306k in 2014 and spent €333k. Its P&L is a two-line affair, but the notes reveal that they paid €172k in wages to four staff and €30k on offfice rental.

The list of directors is at alcoholireland.ie/about/board-members/
and the team (three of the four) are listed on alcoholireland.ie/about/team-members/

Sorry I can't post web links; just paste the URLs above into your browser address bar.

http://alcoholireland.ie/about/team-members/

I hate this stuff
Jobs for the boys and girls with up to 80k wages for what exactly
http://alcoholireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Alcohol-Action-SIGNED-acs-2014.pdf

BuilderPlumber

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

He's following the Micheal Martin strategy. Can't fix the health service? Just sign a massively controversial piece of legislation into law that will divide the entire country and they will be so busy arguing about it, they won't notice some old fogies dying on A&E trolleys. Then get out of health before people notice it's 10 times worse than under Martin and run for Taoiseach.
Politics, it's not about the results, it's all about the razzmatazz.

Varadkar is another disappointing minister. I expected more from him to be honest but he is yet another smallminded, vintner stooge who will try to push legislation no one asked for into law but yet does not do the job he is supposed to do like solving the major problems of this country many of which are, ahem, in the health service!!

stefanovich

In France the price of alcohol is very very low compared to Ireland. A bottle of Irish whiskey is cheaper there than here. The French have a healthier attitude to alcohol in general despite the low price. This nanny state BS has got to stop.

syklops

stefanovich wrote: »

In France the price of alcohol is very very low compared to Ireland. A bottle of Irish whiskey is cheaper there than here. The French have a healthier attitude to alcohol in general despite the low price. This nanny state BS has got to stop.

And funnily enough the French health service is second to none. Aside from maybe Cuba.

BuilderPlumber

Tigger wrote: »

http://alcoholireland.ie/about/team-members/

I hate this stuff
Jobs for the boys and girls with up to 80k wages for what exactly
http://alcoholireland.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Alcohol-Action-SIGNED-acs-2014.pdf

Another Quango set up to deal with nothing in particular and to protect the interests of certain sectors like the vintners. No wonder there is no money for other things.

Alcohol is way down the list of 'problems' that need to be solved in this country. Flooding, unemployment, homelessness, hospital trolleys, crime, terrorism, emigration, corruption, cronyism and inequality are all much more prominent issues and not enough is being done to tackle any of them.