Minimum Alcohol pricing to be signed into Law

BuilderPlumber

You didn't hear any of this stuff going on when the pubs were doing well!!! When the debate about alcohol abuse comes up on our screens, you will have some know it all austere medical professional accusing alcohol of virtually everything and then returning home to drink his 2 bottles of vintage wine or port. He will be joined by someone representing the vintners and there will be agreement on 'alcohol sold in responsible venues with true measures' and a war waged around home drinking of cheap booze. The pub is entitled to sell dear booze on its supervised premises and the rich doctor is entitled to down 2 bottles of dear vintage wine but it is a sin to go into Tesco and buy slabs of beer for around €20. At present, I cannot think of one reason to go into a pub. You can get drink elsewhere, there certainly ain't much going on in them and one can meet people elsewhere.

Leo Varadkar has been a disappointment and cannot deal with the real issues in his department. Hospital trolley crises, HSE corruption and incompetence and absurd health insurance fees are worse than ever. Not one action has been taken to solve any of these. Varadkar is just a cleaner version of his direct predecessor and nothing worthwhile gets done.

Ministers and TDs are there to serve the interests of the people. They should meet the people and legislate to solve problems. This minimum pricing for alcohol is one thing but this banning of alcohol sponsorship of sports events and festivals is much more serious and a slide to some kind of ideological dictatorship that goes well beyond pleasing the vintners because I don't know who benefits from the latter at all. It is the desires of a fanatic whose warped views have to come before what is good for business. Scary stuff.

No one is asking for this dictatorial rubbish that will kill off up to 75% of our festivals. In a country where music and the arts are poorly supported as it is, withdrawing sponsorship will kill off many events for good. The minimum pricing imo was the start of this process and we all must remain vigilant about further attempts to implement repressive counterproductive rubbish legislation.

listermint

Am i missing something or has there been a rapid influx of off licenses opening all over the place. The Electronic Cigarette Stands of the alcohol world so to speak


http://www.thejournal.ie/new-licensing-laws-2537805-Jan2016/

NEW LICENSING LAWS designed to aid city and county councils in curbing the number of off licences that have been appearing nationwide could be on the way.
Justice and planning ministers Frances Fitzgerald and Paudie Coffey have agreed a proposal to grant councils the power to “regulate, restrict or control the development of licensed premises”.

The cynic in me tells me local councils are brimmed with publicans or friends of the same.

syklops

listermint wrote: »

Am i missing something or has there been a rapid influx of off licenses opening all over the place. The Electronic Cigarette Stands of the alcohol world so to speak


http://www.thejournal.ie/new-licensing-laws-2537805-Jan2016/





The cynic in me tells me local councils are brimmed with publicans or friends of the same.

Traditionally pubs were off-licenses as well. Theres still a few around who do both. Is it that pub markup is so big that they prefer to just gouge people than to offer both services?

I had not heard about this off-license legislation coming in. Tbh, I didn't realise there had been such an explosion in Off Licenses. :rolleyes:

rubadub

listermint wrote: »

The cynic in me tells me local councils are brimmed with publicans or friends of the same.

Sounds like its protecting offie owners this time. If min pricing goes through it will be easy money, everybody will want a golden goose.

The offies have been keeping very quiet about the min pricing, as I keep saying many of the general public are unaware that they will get the bulk of the extra money, most presume the govenrment get it "as it would be crazy otherwise". So the offies keep quiet and live with the predicted drop in sales as profits may be up overall.

Regarding black market & dodgy practises, we will still have the pubs filling bottles with cheapo spirits, we will still have IRA distilleries and or bottling plants. But I was also saying there will be a rise in another form of black market trading, since the profits are potentially so high people can well afford to pay the excise and legimately import drink like they do now.

If a €1 can goes to €2, and presume it is the same wholesale cost. If a shady offie owner wants to appear above board he must sell that can at €2 the day the law comes in. With VAT at 23% he gets 81cent extra and the government just get 19cent extra in VAT compared to the day before. So that offie owner could afford to hand back a customer 81cent off the books and still make the same profit he did the day before. If the local tesco is €2 a can the shady offie owner could see a huge rise in trade so overall his profits would be up, even if he is just making the same profit per can as the day before. I could picture them throwing in a free can or 2 with a nod & a wink. I can also imagine people brazenly going in and asking for free cans with their purchase. The public will still view the "free can" as being worth €2, while to the offie owner its the same 80cent or whatever its always been.

If imported and excise paid there will also be the possibility of black market booze sold off the books, but with no VAT being applied too.

When excise & vat takes drop they will wrongly say/equate that to meaning the level of booze consumption has dropped dramatically, and pronounce it a huge success.

Interesting that the offies are not happy with the min pricing but also want below cost selling banned. This would prevent supermarkets having heavily discounted premium beers, which would ordinarily be well above min price.

I have never believed in the logic some authorities saying booze should not be so readily available, that it should not be sold in petrol stations or local centras etc. I've known a lot of dipsos in my time and have never seen any drink just because they happened across a shop that was selling it.

listermint

As above, arent many the same thing!


So circle back to Publicans and their lobby

mightybashful

listermint wrote: »

As above, arent many the same thing!


So circle back to Publicans and their lobby

Aww there's an election coming up. Much easier that way

n97 mini

listermint wrote: »

Am i missing something or has there been a rapid influx of off licenses opening all over the place. The Electronic Cigarette Stands of the alcohol world so to speak


http://www.thejournal.ie/new-licensing-laws-2537805-Jan2016/





The cynic in me tells me local councils are brimmed with publicans or friends of the same.

Hah! Welcomed by NOFFLA. Of course it is... it helps keep competition at bay!

Shelflife

rubadub wrote: »

Sounds like its protecting offie owners this time. If min pricing goes through it will be easy money, everybody will want a golden goose.

The offies have been keeping very quiet about the min pricing, as I keep saying many of the general public are unaware that they will get the bulk of the extra money, most presume the govenrment get it "as it would be crazy otherwise". So the offies keep quiet and live with the predicted drop in sales as profits may be up overall.

Regarding black market & dodgy practises, we will still have the pubs filling bottles with cheapo spirits, we will still have IRA distilleries and or bottling plants. But I was also saying there will be a rise in another form of black market trading, since the profits are potentially so high people can well afford to pay the excise and legimately import drink like they do now.

If a €1 can goes to €2, and presume it is the same wholesale cost. If a shady offie owner wants to appear above board he must sell that can at €2 the day the law comes in. With VAT at 23% he gets 81cent extra and the government just get 19cent extra in VAT compared to the day before. So that offie owner could afford to hand back a customer 81cent off the books and still make the same profit he did the day before. If the local tesco is €2 a can the shady offie owner could see a huge rise in trade so overall his profits would be up, even if he is just making the same profit per can as the day before. I could picture them throwing in a free can or 2 with a nod & a wink. I can also imagine people brazenly going in and asking for free cans with their purchase. The public will still view the "free can" as being worth €2, while to the offie owner its the same 80cent or whatever its always been.

If imported and excise paid there will also be the possibility of black market booze sold off the books, but with no VAT being applied too.

When excise & vat takes drop they will wrongly say/equate that to meaning the level of booze consumption has dropped dramatically, and pronounce it a huge success.

Interesting that the offies are not happy with the min pricing but also want below cost selling banned. This would prevent supermarkets having heavily discounted premium beers, which would ordinarily be well above min price.

I have never believed in the logic some authorities saying booze should not be so readily available, that it should not be sold in petrol stations or local centras etc. I've known a lot of dipsos in my time and have never seen any drink just because they happened across a shop that was selling it.

Youre way over thinking this rubadub, i cant see the retailer getting all of the new increase, im sure that the manufacturer and the wholesalers will increase their take as well.

As regards the shady dealings above , they wouldnt be worth the hassle, revenue audits are all through the EPOS system and it would be simply too easy to get nailed.

rubadub

Shelflife wrote: »

i cant see the retailer getting all of the new increase, im sure that the manufacturer and the wholesalers will increase their take as well..

This keeps being said repeatedly, but there will still be free competition so I would expect the shopkeeper to get the bulk of it, well the ones with half a brain anyway -ones who will have no bother sticking 2 fingers up to the official distributors if they do try and pull a fast one. Just as my local supervalu already sources scottish heineken and sells it alongside irish market stuff, Its stronger and sold cheaper.

Lazy shopkeepers might be screwed, the smart ones will seek out alternatives. Just like some idiot publicans who allow themselves be rode rotten by the breweries selling them bottles at huge prices.

My main point is the blackmarket trade will likely increase a lot more, as the booze does not even need to be smuggled, excise can be paid. I do not know about audits etc but that has got to make it a hell of a lot easier.

It's astonishing to think that someone would think the black market may decrease -seems it was just 1 single person though.

Shelflife

Hi Rubadub

there is some truth in what you say, true the lazy retailer will always get nailed and rightly so. However most decent sized off licences will be tied to a supplier on which deals are agreed based on loyalty so buying outside of that could end up costing you more in the long term.

Its not your local supervalu that is importing the cheap heineken its the group as a whole, its not that easy to import alcohol for resale there is a lot of red tape to jump through to do it correctly.

Most retailers wont entertain foodstuffs from unknown suppliers as you cant ascertain the quality and safety of the product. Aside from the revenue we also have Customs and excise that do spot checks as well.

dr.fuzzenstein

^^^^^
In other words it's a well established racket where a few big boys have had sufficient political influence to have government policy set up to their liking and to keep any competition down. Bit like the legal that is currently bleeding insurance companies dry with the state looking on and looking away at the same time.

rubadub

Shelflife wrote: »

However most decent sized off licences will be tied to a supplier on which deals are agreed based on loyalty so buying outside of that could end up costing you more in the long term.

agreed, this is why I was talking of independent small ones. They might clean up. When I was young there were 3 local offies known to sell to underage kids, it was comical going into them, dodgy owner not giving a damn. They always had lots of weird oddball beers that you would never ever see in supermarkets, or in big chain offlicences.

I have gone into some offies attached to pubs more recently and you still see these odd brands of beer which I have never seen anywhere else.

I presumed there is an importer getting these in from abroad at that countries wholesale price. These cheapo beers might be the only cheap one in the offie, i.e. it has no bavaria, tennants, pravsky, dutch gold or other typical 1 euro cans, or maybe have just 1 other of those beers but it may not be the cheapest.

Shelflife wrote: »

Its not your local supervalu that is importing the cheap heineken its the group as a whole.

I only ever saw it in 2 local supervalus, and these are owned by the same guy. I never saw it in any other supervalus so figured it was the owner getting it from some other crowd.

On this forum you will see lads legitimately buying in drink from the EU, with Irish duty paid in advance. This is not in quantities an offie might want, and I am not sure if there is some restriction to stop a offie buying beer like this and reselling? perhaps you know. I wonder how minimum pricing will work with importation like this for normal consumers not reselling.

I was saying before if they do have to charge min prices they could afford to give free shipping. If the predictions of outrageous increases in wholesale prices does happen these could sell cheaper than Irish offies even with the free shipping.

I know of publicans buying beer from centra and reselling. Some say claiming the VAT back is difficult but even if you forget about the VAT it is seemingly cheaper than some official distributors.

If there are audits and tight controls on stock there is still little to stop a shady offie owner of just simply handing back cash in hand. I expect this would only happen in shops where people know the owner etc, but years ago I used to know the owners of some fairly well, who would swop gifted drink & do other favours.

oblivious

Shelflife wrote: »

Youre way over thinking this rubadub, i cant see the retailer getting all of the new increase, im sure that the manufacturer and the wholesalers will increase their take as well.

There is noting stopping manufactures and wholesalers tacking on a price increases. But the bill is clear that "sale", “sell” does not include — (a)sell by wholesale, or (b)distribute free of charge."

rubadub

oblivious wrote: »

(a)sell by wholesale,

I wonder what the story will be with cash & carrys. I know several people with cards who get alcohol the odd time.

Is this allowed? are they supposed to be selling it on? and so potentially audited.

Could you argue its for business use, e.g. entertaining customers or something. I never heard of them having any hassle buying it, i.e. I don't think they had to say they had a licence to sell it.

odyssey06

Very detailed FactCheck article in todays Journal:
http://www.thejournal.ie/minimum-unit-pricing-alcohol-ireland-facts-2932210-Aug2016/

In a nutshell...
Claim: Minimum unit alcohol pricing has been proven to reduce health harms, elsewhere in the world
Verdict: Mostly FALSE

L1011

The government has even more reason to roll over for the publicans now with the FF "support". Its still extremely unlikely they'll find a way to do it that's legal but sure, if it gives the publicans a year or two of thinking they've "won" they'll still do it. Even with the state likely to bear the costs of a challenge.

Considering we tried, and failed, with smokes it takes a particular type of pigheadedness to try the same thing again.

starshine1234

There's some confusion about how prices would be affected.


If we had three cans of beer at the moment

Cheap beer sold for euro 1.00
Standard beer sold for euro 1.50
Premium beer sold for euro 2.00

If a minimum price of 2.00 is set then the cheap and standard beers go out of business and the premium beer takes the entire market and continues to be sold at 2.00

I think that's correct if consumers are price sensitive and logical.


Many people think the premium beer will go up for some reason, to 2.50 say. Then the cheap and standard beers will be somewhere below that, at 2.00 and 2.25 say.

But that doesn't make sense. People will notice the price increases and say its price gouging.


The court challenges are based on this; that cheap brands get wiped out by minimum pricing, they don't get to continue on with higher prices, they get wiped out.




It's interesting with manufacturers.

If they all increase their prices at the same time they'd appear to be a cartel of some sort.
There's no real reason to increase their prices although they will see a more profitable business and they'll want a piece of it.
But there are many manufacturers and there are also some based abroad; they can't all raise their prices so perhaps none of them will. The offies would make far higher profits per sale but less sales probably.

BeerNut

starshine1234 wrote: »

I think that's correct if consumers are price sensitive and logical.

And there's the fatal flaw in your argument.

If you spend any time at all on this forum you'll see people complaining about price gouging all the time. Does it stop them buying beer? 'Course not.

When the €1 beer goes to €2 it's just common sense for the maker of the €2 beer to put it up to €2.50 so it doesn't look like cheap rubbish. Beer price at this level is all about the brand perception, nothing else.

Hotblack Desiato

If you think something positioned as a premium brand is going to sell at the minimum legal price, you're dreaming.

rubadub

starshine1234 wrote: »

But that doesn't make sense. People will notice the price increases and say its price gouging..

I have made many long posts about predictions of what will happen. There will still be competition, people have their head in the sand about this for some reason, I don't think I have seen a reasonable excuse against it other than it might be a bit of hassle with the books. Off licences can still import so if local breweries or distributors up the prices they will import, it already happens. If all the supermarkets increase 2euro bottles to 2.50 then one offie would remain at 2, being able to import at the same price (or less) and clean up. I said before a supervalu near me sells 5% heineken lower than 4.3% heineken, both brewed & canned in holland, one intended for irish market, the other for scottish, presumably very different wholesale prices.ea

Cheaply produced beer will still have a market. If I owned the offie near the RDS when bruce springsteen is playing I would be stocking nothing but the cheapest beer I could find, knowing fine well it will sell out regardless as the gardai tolerate illegal drinking at gigs like that.


Does anybody know what happened in countries which do have min pricing, I think no country has done it as our lunatics are proposing though, so could be different outcomes.

starshine1234

I think the cheaper brands must get wiped out in some situations.

That is what the court cases are about and the cheap whisky manufacturers from Scotland won their case as far as I know.


Rubadub has explained it well.
The whole point of the 'market' is to allow for competition and for the correct price to emerge. If one seller increases the premium brands beyond the minimum price then someone else can sell the premium brands at the minimum price and clean up.


So Tesco for example will probably sell all branded beers like Guinness, Heineken, Carlsberg etc for the minimum price. If they don't they may be undercut by smaller off-licences.

Same with vodka and whiskey.


I think the government shouldn't bother with this and they should just let the price remain as it is.

omicron

I reckon the government know they're going to have a fight with the EU about this, so in the meantime they'll probably throw 20-30c in excise on the price of a pint over the next few budgets instead. They're already floating ideas about making up the tax difference when they scrap USC so this would be one way to achieve both.

To be honest I'd rather see an excise increase than minimum pricing, at least the difference won't be going to the supermarkets.

rubadub

omicron wrote: »

in the meantime they'll probably throw 20-30c in excise on the price of a pint over the next few budgets instead.

That would screw over their publican buddies. The current ludicrous "no tax" idea will not hit the publicans, except the rare few who might have specials below the min price. Though some pubs will be hit as I know of a few who buy the likes of heineken bottles from supermarkets.

There was talk of a off licence levy or something before, like slap on 20cent on offsales per unit alcohol, so that would keep the publicans sweet.

starshine1234 wrote: »

So Tesco for example will probably sell all branded beers like Guinness, Heineken, Carlsberg etc for the minimum price. If they don't they may be undercut by smaller off-licences.

I could also imagine places offering free delivery services. Imagine heineken went up to 2.50 in all supermarkets, both heineken Ireland taking the piss by increasing wholesale price and the supermarkets price mathing. A tiny offie in ballygobackwards could start buying it in by the container from an EU country where the wholesale price is cheapest (all above board paying all duties etc), and then deliver heineken all around the country, maybe team up with a courier. A lorry driving around with nothing but trays of heineken in it for minimum price and "free" delivery, 3 tray minimum order or something.

Blut2

omicron wrote: »

I reckon the government know they're going to have a fight with the EU about this, so in the meantime they'll probably throw 20-30c in excise on the price of a pint over the next few budgets instead. They're already floating ideas about making up the tax difference when they scrap USC so this would be one way to achieve both.

To be honest I'd rather see an excise increase than minimum pricing, at least the difference won't be going to the supermarkets.

An excise increase makes far, far more sense than minimum pricing. Better to have the additional revenue going to the government than to Tesco. If it was really about public health (and the good of the state) excise duty would just be gradually increased over a number of years.

The only reason minimum unit pricing is being considered instead is the power of the publican lobby.

macnug

Have they put a date on when this will be implemented?

BeerNut

No.

starshine1234

I still don't agree that premium brands will sell for a significant premium over the minimum price.

I agree that over a period of time, measured in years, that prices will rise. But not immediately.


Cans of draught Guinness are on sale for about 1.60 usually, but the cans are very often available for less, perhaps 1.25 or so. They're occasionally available for 1.00. The price is up to 2.50 in local shops.


If a minimum price of 1.80 or 2.00 comes in then I expect that Guinness will initially be sold for that price, in the large supermarkets at least.

How could it be otherwise?

I use Guinness as it isn't easy for drinkers to replace this brand. Will Murphys or yellow pack stout be able to compete with Guinness when they're all sold at the minimum price?

If Guinness seek to maintain a premium by charging more they might face a backlash.


Perhaps over time some brands will seek to re-position themselves at higher prices. But I suspect there might be un-intended consequences.

Smuggling will increase, as will cross border shopping, as will counterfeiting. Home brewing may well increase. Some shops may break the law and sell below the minimum price.


Beer is already much more expensive here than elsewhere; making it 50% to 100% more expensive is just daft.

Jayop

Has anything actually happened yet that this thread was bumped?

Help!!!!

The government would be better reducing the amount of tax that pubs pay so the price of a pint would come down which in turn would encourage more people to go out for a pint thus the government not losing out overall on tax
Or is that too simple?

BeerNut

Jayop wrote: »

Has anything actually happened yet that this thread was bumped?

No. Just the Journal piece linked above. The Bill was introduced in the Seanad before Christmas and went through second stage there. There's still the final bits of Seanad procedure before it goes to the Dáil. If the Seanad is anything to go by there's basically zero political resistance to this, so that probably won't take long. Once passed, it'll be up to the Department of Health to produce a timescale for bringing it into force. It seems unlikely that there'll be any legal challenges to it; if it gets scuppered it'll be through European rules relating to the case currently ongoing between the Scottish government and the Scotch whisky industry. It's possible that the Bill will need to be amended in light of this during the Dáil stage, so I wouldn't be surprised if the government was delaying introduction in the Dáil to wait and see what happens in Scotland.